How far back does dirty play go?

[Passchendaele]

I've read enough about early days hockey to know it was much, much worse circa 1890-1920.

Players pretty much used their sticks as swords on a fairly regular basis.

Exhibit A:

Owen McCourt - Wikipedia

 

[mbhhofr]

Hockey, a game played on an ice rink, 85' x 200' enclosed by boards, with a hard, frozen, rubber disc flying around at speeds of over 100 miles per hour. Players wearing razor sharp metal blades on their feet skating and knocking into each other at speeds 20 to 30 MPH. There is no out of bounds in hockey. A player carrying the puck along the boards can't step out when he is going to get body checked. Play is continuous. Unlike other sports, players change on the fly. When a player falls he can slide into the boards, the metal goal post or another player, causing injury. He carries a club (hockey stick) in his hands which he sometimes uses as a weapon.

I've officiated the game for 35 years at every level and seen it all.

 

[Tarantula]

Hockey, a game played on an ice rink, 85' x 200' enclosed by boards, with a hard, frozen, rubber disc flying around at speeds of over 100 miles per hour. Players wearing razor sharp metal blades on their feet skating and knocking into each other at speeds 20 to 30 MPH. There is no out of bounds in hockey. A player carrying the puck along the boards can't step out when he is going to get body checked. Play is continuous. Unlike other sports, players change on the fly. When a player falls he can slide into the boards, the metal goal post or another player, causing injury. He carries a club (hockey stick) in his hands which he sometimes uses as a weapon.

I've officiated the game for 35 years at every level and seen it all.

Would be a good evening having a few pops and hearing some of the stories.

 

[Vanzig]

Did I get transported to an alternate universe where Eddie Shore was never born?

Bingo, Of all the Hockey Games I have on “VHS/DVD-r” it’s too bad I don’t have Footage from the 1930’s with EDDIE SHORE, If I had to say I bet you the rough n tough Hockey started in the 1930’s and by 2000 was gone!!!

I mean HITS/FIGHTs are down more than ever in the 21st Century. I was watching a PHILADELPHIA vs BOSTON Game from 1985 and I’m not kidding, Had that game been played today there would be like 2/3 suspensions LOL,
Plus the players today have the BEST EQUIPMENT. Look at the equipment they had from the beginning to Late 19890’s, In the 1990’s equipment was getting better and in 21st century its awesome, Guys can play forever and not get as injured as the players before.

 

[DJ Man]

I remember when Cain high-sticked Abel. I think he got a Match Penalty.

 

[Hanji]

Bingo, Of all the Hockey Games I have on “VHS/DVD-r” it’s too bad I don’t have Footage from the 1930’s with EDDIE SHORE, If I had to say I bet you the rough n tough Hockey started in the 1930’s and by 2000 was gone!!!

I mean HITS/FIGHTs are down more than ever in the 21st Century. I was watching a PHILADELPHIA vs BOSTON Game from 1985 and I’m not kidding, Had that game been played today there would be like 2/3 suspensions LOL,
Plus the players today have the BEST EQUIPMENT. Look at the equipment they had from the beginning to Late 19890’s, In the 1990’s equipment was getting better and in 21st century its awesome, Guys can play forever and not get as injured as the players before.

I’m not sure about that.
While not as dirty as years past, today’s game has the potential to be more dangerous due to high impact hits with modern equipment.
Today’s plastic padding, in and of itself, is a weapon and does not provide anywhere near the ‘give’ that old leather padding provided. Today’s player is skating in a gladiator suit.

As such, notice how relatively infrequent vicious open ice hits occurred pre-1990’s. Most players were unwilling to hit an opponent full-speed/full-impact considering they, themselves, would've been more vulnerable to injury with lesser equipment.

 

[Howie Hodge]

Dirty tactics in sports have existed as long as sports themselves.

This.

End of conversation.

And it was dirtier "in the day."

 

[blood gin]

Sprague was not a good person. Supposedly beat his wife with a crutch.

Shore had legitimate sadistic tendencies it seems

 

[blood gin]

This is very likely the cleanest era the NHL has ever seen.

See I don't know about that. Weren't the 50's relatively clean. So few teams so there were no true goons. Someone like Fontinato may have been a big hitter and fighter but he also played every game as a solid defensive defensemen.

 

[puckpilot]

I'd say pretty far back.

 

[MXD]

I remember when Cain high-sticked Abel. I think he got a Match Penalty.

"Was Herb Cain ever penalized for high-sticking Sid Abel? Gotta look at newspapers/game logs"
- HOH Regular

 

[sr edler]

I remember when Cain high-sticked Abel.

I know Adam high-sticked Eve.

 

[DFC]

See I don't know about that. Weren't the 50's relatively clean. So few teams so there were no true goons. Someone like Fontinato may have been a big hitter and fighter but he also played every game as a solid defensive defensemen.

LOL, Your grandfather didn't tell you nearly enough stories about Gordie Howe.

 

[DJ Man]

"Was Herb Cain ever penalized for high-sticking Sid Abel? Gotta look at newspapers/game logs"
- HOH Regular

But neither of 'em played for the Leafs or the Rangers, so we can't say that Cain was thrown out of the Garden!

Edit: I'm sorry, Boston had a "Garden" as well, and Cain did play for them!

 

[tarheelhockey]

I've read enough about early days hockey to know it was much, much worse circa 1890-1920.

Players pretty much used their sticks as swords on a fairly regular basis.

Exhibit A:

Owen McCourt - Wikipedia

It really depends on how you define “dirty”.

Early era hockey was probably a LOT less physical than what we’re used to seeing. The fact that major injuries were rare — very few broken bones or head injuries in a given season — tells us that players couldn’t have been experiencing high speed collisions or falling hard to the ice on a regular basis. The idea of “finishing your check” did not exist. Flying around the ice with your stick carelessly in the air did not exist. Cross-checking was an actual penalty that was actually called, and therefore wasn’t nearly as common as we see it today.

When I think about dirty play in today’s game, 90% of it has to do with late/high/blindside hits or stickwork. Meaning a very large chunk of what we currently complain about was rare or nonexistent in that era. And, when it did happen, it was remarkable enough to be reported on with a tone of disappointment. Today it’s just the way of things.

Which isn’t to say accidents didn’t happen or that players weren’t occasionally reckless. What differentiates that era from today is the scale of retaliation that often resulted. If someone clipped you in the face with his stick, it wasn’t out of bounds to deliberately smack him over the back of the head in response. If you got jammed a bit too hard on the boards, you might skate up and sucker-punch the offender. If he felt the need for vigilante justice, he’d chase you into the penalty box and a cop would have to pull him off of you. This kind of stuff would be a generational incident in 2019, but it was just the way of things in 1919.

So... yes, in a sense the game was more violent at that time. Minute-by-minute it probably was a calmer and more gentlemanly game. But the controls were much looser when emotion began to spill over.

 

[wetcoast]

Dirty tactics in sports have existed as long as sports themselves.

Pretty much this.

It's the history of human competition, when they compete someone is always pushing the envelope.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

I was under the impression that the game started gentlemanly, when amateurs (i.e. rich, idle noblemen) played it. When the game became professional and blue collar men realized a living could be made by playing it, it got progressively more brutal. Those guys were fighting to survive.

The Nobs can be right vicious in a sporting context. Read any history of English public school life.

And if we're bringing up mean dirty bastards from the past, lets not forget Billy Coutu who was suspended for life for assaulting referee Jerry Laflamme, tackling referee Billy Bell, and starting a bench-clearing brawl after a Stanley Cup game. He and Cleghorn and Shore were all on the same team for a while.

 

[MXD]

But neither of 'em played for the Leafs or the Rangers, so we can't say that Cain was thrown out of the Garden!

Edit: I'm sorry, Boston had a "Garden" as well, and Cain did play for them!

This was a very, very bad "joke" about their biblical namesakes.

 

[DJ Man]

This was a very, very bad "joke" about their biblical namesakes.

Well, the younger ones never did reside in The Garden, but , as you stated, it was a bad enough joke already, so ...

 

[supsens]

I mean, when ice hockey was invented 100 years ago, i would think the main objective was to score goals. when did nasty play and fighting start, and why was it allowed? there is no fighting allowed in other sports. so why here.


trying to look up dirty stuff from before my time, this one is good...... but when did something like this start, even back in 1910 or 1920?

Didn't they pay guys to beat and injure each other from like day one up untill the last few years?

 

[Pominville Knows]

No footage but supposedly Eddie Shore had the most dirtiest hit ever

By the end result maybe, but how these hits end up is driven by luck or rather the lack thereof.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Didn't they pay guys to beat and injure each other from like day one up untill the last few years?

If you want to be literal about "day one", nobody was getting paid at all.
But focussing on the NHL and using the simplest metric possible, the PIM leader in 2017-18 was Ken Randall, who was certainly known as a tough, brutal player, but who also scored a dozen goals, good for 12th in the league. Second was Hall Of Fame defenseman Joe Hall, and third was Cy Denneny, the best goal scorer in the game.
The leaders going forward from there are a grab bag of stars and everyday players who were also degenerate maniacs, your Cleghorns and Coutus.
The guys you're thinking of don't start showing up until NHL roster sizes justified their existence, for a few decades before they went out of fashion.

 

[supsens]

If you want to be literal about "day one", nobody was getting paid at all.
But focussing on the NHL and using the simplest metric possible, the PIM leader in 2017-18 was Ken Randall, who was certainly known as a tough, brutal player, but who also scored a dozen goals, good for 12th in the league. Second was Hall Of Fame defenseman Joe Hall, and third was Cy Denneny, the best goal scorer in the game.
The leaders going forward from there are a grab bag of stars and everyday players who were also degenerate maniacs, your Cleghorns and Coutus.
The guys you're thinking of don't start showing up until NHL roster sizes justified their existence, for a few decades before they went out of fashion.

Didnt the locals pass around the colection hat for the face punchers? Way back when.