How do you rank the GOATS? Gretzky, Ruth, Jordan, Brady

tarheelhockey

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According to Arnold Schwarzenegger, Wilt put him and all his bodybuilding buddies to shame in the weight room.

The more you look at the guy, the more cartoonish he seems.

The first thing you notice here is him towering over 6’2” Mr. Olympia.

main-qimg-b5a20f0f72489d2e1ecefa1050355533


But now take a second look at his freaking biceps.

Again, this is him standing next to a world champion bodybuilder who was (literally) on steroids.

And he ran the 100m in under 11 seconds. And he could jump 4 feet in the air.
 
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blueandgoldguy

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I remember watching an NBA All Star Game on tv that Chamberlain was attending in the mid to late 90s. Glen Rice broke the record by Chamberlain for most points in a half. When Rice nailed a shot to break the record, they showed a replay of Wilt's reaction and he was NOT HAPPY...shaking his head in disgust. Magic and one or two others on commentary were having a good chuckle on that.

Will Chamberlain's record of 10,000 ever be beaten, I wonder? I saw the 30 for 30 documentary featuring Ric Flair and he made the same claim. Tough to verify these things....
 

The Panther

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Yeah, Wilt Chamberlain is one of those athletic freaks of nature that transcends eras (and probably sports). You could stick him into any sport in any historical period and he'd probably be at pro/Olympic level (okay, maybe not hockey).

Jordan showed he was a very good -- if not quite MLB level -- baseball player, while Gretzky was a very fast runner and decent baseball player. (I've no idea about Ruth; I don't think he played other sports seriously.)

Wilt's athleticism in a broader context is like Mario Lemieux's in hockey: Just take 3.5 years off to rest into my mid-30s... Then, I'll come back to the highest pro-level and score 76 points in 43 games...
 

Dennis Bonvie

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I remember watching an NBA All Star Game on tv that Chamberlain was attending in the mid to late 90s. Glen Rice broke the record by Chamberlain for most points in a half. When Rice nailed a shot to break the record, they showed a replay of Wilt's reaction and he was NOT HAPPY...shaking his head in disgust. Magic and one or two others on commentary were having a good chuckle on that.

Will Chamberlain's record of 10,000 ever be beaten, I wonder? I saw the 30 for 30 documentary featuring Ric Flair and he made the same claim. Tough to verify these things....

I believe it was 20,000.
 

scott clam

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The more you look at the guy, the more cartoonish he seems.

The first thing you notice here is him towering over 6’2” Mr. Olympia.

main-qimg-b5a20f0f72489d2e1ecefa1050355533


But now take a second look at his freaking biceps.

Again, this is him standing next to a world champion bodybuilder who was (literally) on steroids.

And he ran the 100m in under 11 seconds. And he could jump 4 feet in the air.
Speaking of triceps, Arnold claimed that Wilt was doing tri-extensions("skullcrushers") of 170, while the strongest guys in the gym were doing like 110. Which is a difference of greater than 50 per cent!
 
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tarheelhockey

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Speaking of triceps, Arnold claimed that Wilt was doing tri-extensions("skullcrushers") of 170, while the strongest guys in the gym were doing like 110. Which is a difference of greater than 50 per cent!

Jesus ****ing Christ, if that number is accurate that means Chamberlain was lifting as much as most people can lift with a bench press.

It's really hard to overstate how insane that is. Note on this chart that the highest tri-extension weight listed for an "elite" 310 lb man is 163.

Even if Arnold was exaggerating -- bearing in mind weightlifting is his literal job and he knows exactly what the numbers mean -- but even if he was exaggerating by 5 or 10 pounds, we are still talking about 10/10 strength.
 

Cruor

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Jesus ****ing Christ, if that number is accurate that means Chamberlain was lifting as much as most people can lift with a bench press.

It's really hard to overstate how insane that is. Note on this chart that the highest tri-extension weight listed for an "elite" 310 lb man is 163.

Even if Arnold was exaggerating -- bearing in mind weightlifting is his literal job and he knows exactly what the numbers mean -- but even if he was exaggerating by 5 or 10 pounds, we are still talking about 10/10 strength.

And yet, when Wilt stopped ball hogging to the extreme that he did his team offense actually improved. It's all good and well to be the biggest and baddest, but it has to translate into something tangible.

Backpicks GOAT: #9 Wilt Chamberlain
 

MadLuke

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Jesus ****ing Christ, if that number is accurate that means Chamberlain was lifting as much as most people can lift with a bench press.

And a bit like Chara doing pull up being more impressive than a regular man doing it, my brain is not good enough to understand/calculate know even if it matter, but I feel that with arms that long and that amount of leverage it create for something like skullcrusher, having long arm here could "hurt" the weight you can do with the same strength. But maybe not has the movement make the bar go close to your head regardless of your morphology.
 
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Big Phil

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Chamberlain is the anti-Brady in a lot of ways.

He only won two championships, which is strange. Granted, the two teams he played on were all-time great teams. They were incredible.

I believe it was 20,000.

I have done the math on this one. Wilt's book came out in 1991 where he makes the 20,000 women claim. He's 55 at this time. Let's give him 40 years on that, I suspect he's lost his virginity around 15 if not sooner. But if that is the case 40 years of having a different woman everyday is 14,600 women. So even if he is exaggerating, I can see it.

The more you look at the guy, the more cartoonish he seems.

The first thing you notice here is him towering over 6’2” Mr. Olympia.

main-qimg-b5a20f0f72489d2e1ecefa1050355533


But now take a second look at his freaking biceps.

Again, this is him standing next to a world champion bodybuilder who was (literally) on steroids.

And he ran the 100m in under 11 seconds. And he could jump 4 feet in the air.

Then there is that picture of him standing next to none other than Andre the Giant. Andre was around 7 feet tall. Maybe 6'11". Wilt was 7'2" and you can see he is clearly taller than Andre.
 

scott clam

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"I played with him for 2 years, and I doubt his numbers were correct. Because too many nights I saw him walk to his hotel room with nothing but a bag of McDonalds."

Tom Hawkins, Wilt's ex-Laker teammate.
 

Elvis P

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Jordan was the most charismatic, but apples and oranges.

Ruth was the best player, but Mays was the best all around player.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Jordan was the most charismatic, but apples and oranges.

Ruth was the best player, but Mays was the best all around player.

As a kid growing up in Connecticut, it was Red Sox and Yankees, all things American League.

The All-Star game was a real treat. A couple of seasons the NL had Mays bat leadoff. He'd get on and then go first to third on a hit. Never had seen anyone that fast on the bases. Seemed he never lost a nano-second going around a bag. Hit, hit with power, cover all of centerfield and a great arm. Better than Aaron only because he was a (great defensively) centerfielder.
 

Voight

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He only won two championships, which is strange. Granted, the two teams he played on were all-time great teams. They were incredible.



I have done the math on this one. Wilt's book came out in 1991 where he makes the 20,000 women claim. He's 55 at this time. Let's give him 40 years on that, I suspect he's lost his virginity around 15 if not sooner. But if that is the case 40 years of having a different woman everyday is 14,600 women. So even if he is exaggerating, I can see it.



Then there is that picture of him standing next to none other than Andre the Giant. Andre was around 7 feet tall. Maybe 6'11". Wilt was 7'2" and you can see he is clearly taller than Andre.

Not to get too OT, but I remember reading that he'd often have 2 or 3 women at the same time, which would help those numbers up. Often his daily routine would be to wake up with a girl or two from the nigh before, practice, have another girl comeover, play and then scoop up a couple more at the clubs after the game. I kind of believe it only because he was arguably the most famous athlete at the time and rich. + he lived in LA for a while.
 

scott clam

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Not to get too OT, but I remember reading that he'd often have 2 or 3 women at the same time, which would help those numbers up. Often his daily routine would be to wake up with a girl or two from the nigh before, practice, have another girl comeover, play and then scoop up a couple more at the clubs after the game. I kind of believe it only because he was arguably the most famous athlete at the time and rich. + he lived in LA for a while.
Even though Wilt is probably the most extraordinary raw athlete who ever lived, he was also a notorious bullsh*tter.
His supposed max vertical get kept getting higher as he got older, with him claiming it to be an absurd 52" in a 76ers retrospective video from the mid 90s.
He also claimed to have killed a mountain lion with his bare hands, which I guess is possible, but extremely unlikely. Not to mention cliché.
 

tarheelhockey

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Even though Wilt is probably the most extraordinary raw athlete who ever lived, he was also a notorious bullsh*tter.
His supposed max vertical get kept getting higher as he got older, with him claiming it to be an absurd 52" in a 76ers retrospective video from the mid 90s.
He also claimed to have killed a mountain lion with his bare hands, which I guess is possible, but extremely unlikely. Not to mention cliché.

This is the actual quote from Cal Ramsay, his teammate:

“Wilt was driving across Arizona or New Mexico and stopped by the side of the road for a minute when he was attacked by a mountain lion. Wilt says the mountain lion jumped on his shoulder, and he grabbed it by the tail and threw it into the bushes. Well, I wasn’t there … But Wilt says it happened, and I’m not about to say it didn’t. Besides, he showed me these huge scratch marks on one shoulder. I don’t know any other way he could have gotten them.”

Gee, how else could Wilt have gotten scratch marks on his shoulder? :huh:
 

scott clam

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This is the actual quote from Cal Ramsay, his teammate:

“Wilt was driving across Arizona or New Mexico and stopped by the side of the road for a minute when he was attacked by a mountain lion. Wilt says the mountain lion jumped on his shoulder, and he grabbed it by the tail and threw it into the bushes. Well, I wasn’t there … But Wilt says it happened, and I’m not about to say it didn’t. Besides, he showed me these huge scratch marks on one shoulder. I don’t know any other way he could have gotten them.”

Gee, how else could Wilt have gotten scratch marks on his shoulder? :huh:
Well, another word for mountain lion is "cougar"....
 

Cas

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Beside lapping the field offensively, he was a Hall of Fame level pitcher who held the record for consecutive scoreless innings in the World Series for longer than he held the record for home runs in a season.

I'll bite here - Babe Ruth was not a Hall of Fame-level pitcher.

Ruth was a good pitcher - well above average, in his time on the mound. He was arguably the best pitcher in the American League in 1916, leading the league in ERA (and ERA adjusted for ballpark) and finishing a narrow third in innings pitched. He was playing in front of very good defense, and Walter Johnson, who pitched 46 more innings at nearly the same level of effectiveness, was almost certainly more valuable, but finishing second in the league to Walter Johnson is hardly a problem. However, that's basically it for Ruth's career as a dominant pitcher. He was a good pitcher in 1915, and a good pitcher in 1917.

He was a good strikeout pitcher in 1915 and 1916, but his strikeout rate took a tumble in 1917 and was barely above average. It took another tumble in 1918 - maybe because he was distracted playing the outfield, and had he remained on the mound it wouldn't have dropped as far, but it seems that he was losing his ability to strike batters out and was near the bottom of the league in strikeout rate. It continued to fall in 1919.

Maybe, with dedication to improving his craft, Ruth would have remained a good pitcher for some years, but losing your strikeout rate to that degree and at that age is a gigantic red flag for me. My best guess is that, if Ruth had not been much of a hitter, he would have been out of baseball by 30. That would not have been unusual in that era for pitchers (it still isn't, really).

Babe Ruth, as a pitcher, has more in common with Bob Tewksbury than Tom Glavine. Ruth was better, but the same principle applies - pitchers who don't strike out batters don't last long, with very few exceptions.

Babe Ruth was a great hitter - a tremendous, transformational hitter - who was also a good pitcher for a few years. He wasn't a Hall of Fame-quality pitcher and a Hall of Fame-quality hitter.

He does all of this and still has a career batting average of .342. Still steals 123 bases in his career (finished top 10 in the AL twice) and hit 136 triples more than half that none other than Rickey Henderson hit in his career. He also would have been a Hall of Famer as a pitcher in which he won 94 games had he stuck with it. He has this image of trotting around the bases after a home run on grainy footage and I think people figure that is all they need to know, but there was so much more.

I'll add to this that Ruth was not a good basestealer - he was caught almost as often as he successfully stole (even in that era, that was below average) and his triples reflect the parks he played in, not his actual speed (which was good when he was young - he was capable of playing center field - but never exceptional).

Even in his most successful season as a basestealer (1921, where he went 17/30), Ruth was barely above league average in success rate, at 56.6% compared to a league average of 55.6%. Ruth was not generating a lot of runs on the basepaths (his most famous moment as a baserunner was being caught stealing to end the 1926 World Series with Bob Meusel at the plate and Lou Gehrig on deck).
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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I have done the math on this one. Wilt's book came out in 1991 where he makes the 20,000 women claim. He's 55 at this time. Let's give him 40 years on that, I suspect he's lost his virginity around 15 if not sooner. But if that is the case 40 years of having a different woman everyday is 14,600 women. So even if he is exaggerating, I can see it.

true or not, yet more evidence that the thing wilt cared about most was stats.
 
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Big Phil

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I'll bite here - Babe Ruth was not a Hall of Fame-level pitcher.

Ruth was a good pitcher - well above average, in his time on the mound. He was arguably the best pitcher in the American League in 1916, leading the league in ERA (and ERA adjusted for ballpark) and finishing a narrow third in innings pitched. He was playing in front of very good defense, and Walter Johnson, who pitched 46 more innings at nearly the same level of effectiveness, was almost certainly more valuable, but finishing second in the league to Walter Johnson is hardly a problem. However, that's basically it for Ruth's career as a dominant pitcher. He was a good pitcher in 1915, and a good pitcher in 1917.

He was a good strikeout pitcher in 1915 and 1916, but his strikeout rate took a tumble in 1917 and was barely above average. It took another tumble in 1918 - maybe because he was distracted playing the outfield, and had he remained on the mound it wouldn't have dropped as far, but it seems that he was losing his ability to strike batters out and was near the bottom of the league in strikeout rate. It continued to fall in 1919.

Maybe, with dedication to improving his craft, Ruth would have remained a good pitcher for some years, but losing your strikeout rate to that degree and at that age is a gigantic red flag for me. My best guess is that, if Ruth had not been much of a hitter, he would have been out of baseball by 30. That would not have been unusual in that era for pitchers (it still isn't, really).

Babe Ruth, as a pitcher, has more in common with Bob Tewksbury than Tom Glavine. Ruth was better, but the same principle applies - pitchers who don't strike out batters don't last long, with very few exceptions.

Babe Ruth was a great hitter - a tremendous, transformational hitter - who was also a good pitcher for a few years. He wasn't a Hall of Fame-quality pitcher and a Hall of Fame-quality hitter.

I'll add to this that Ruth was not a good basestealer - he was caught almost as often as he successfully stole (even in that era, that was below average) and his triples reflect the parks he played in, not his actual speed (which was good when he was young - he was capable of playing center field - but never exceptional).

Even in his most successful season as a basestealer (1921, where he went 17/30), Ruth was barely above league average in success rate, at 56.6% compared to a league average of 55.6%. Ruth was not generating a lot of runs on the basepaths (his most famous moment as a baserunner was being caught stealing to end the 1926 World Series with Bob Meusel at the plate and Lou Gehrig on deck).

I think you are also forgetting that Ruth pitched less and less and hit more and more even as a Red Sox player. Maybe they realized they had a better weapon than they thought and wanted him hitting more. Both in 1918 and 1919 his plate appearances went up significantly and his pitching starts went down. So basically what we are judging him on is a very young version of him. And in this young version of him he led the AL in ERA, shutouts, and held the record for longest scoreless innings streak in the World Series which wasn't broken for half a century. He's 21 in 1916, and I think it is fair to say he is not quite hit his stride. How many pitchers hit their peak at 21? Plus he was hitting more often and even with the Yankees only pitched in 5 games, and went 5-0 (bad ERA though). Postseason career as a pitcher he is 3-0 with a 0.87 ERA. I mean, for a guy who barely pitched after the age of 23-24, he still won 94 games and has something to show for it. We'll never know how good he would have been as a pitcher had he only focused on that and not turned into a hitter.

No, he wasn't what I'd call a "great" basestealer either. I have no idea why he was stealing at that point in the 1926 World Series. I am just saying he did steal 123 bases. The triples thing to an extent is right. Ballparks were bigger then and many had that cavernous centre field (think the Polo Grounds) so that counts. It is no coincidence the triples leaders in baseball history all played mostly in the dead ball era. Part of it as well was that players didn't trot around and settle for a double either. They hit the ground running more than today, not so much admiring the ball being hit. I can't tell you how many times I thought Rickey Henderson should have gotten a triple instead of a double based on sheer casualness.

Here is the question. Do you consider Ruth the greatest baseball player of all-time and worthy as a G.O.A.T. at least among his sport? I didn't see anything about that in the post.
 

LeBlondeDemon10

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I'll bite here - Babe Ruth was not a Hall of Fame-level pitcher.

Ruth was a good pitcher - well above average, in his time on the mound. He was arguably the best pitcher in the American League in 1916, leading the league in ERA (and ERA adjusted for ballpark) and finishing a narrow third in innings pitched. He was playing in front of very good defense, and Walter Johnson, who pitched 46 more innings at nearly the same level of effectiveness, was almost certainly more valuable, but finishing second in the league to Walter Johnson is hardly a problem. However, that's basically it for Ruth's career as a dominant pitcher. He was a good pitcher in 1915, and a good pitcher in 1917.

He was a good strikeout pitcher in 1915 and 1916, but his strikeout rate took a tumble in 1917 and was barely above average. It took another tumble in 1918 - maybe because he was distracted playing the outfield, and had he remained on the mound it wouldn't have dropped as far, but it seems that he was losing his ability to strike batters out and was near the bottom of the league in strikeout rate. It continued to fall in 1919.

Maybe, with dedication to improving his craft, Ruth would have remained a good pitcher for some years, but losing your strikeout rate to that degree and at that age is a gigantic red flag for me. My best guess is that, if Ruth had not been much of a hitter, he would have been out of baseball by 30. That would not have been unusual in that era for pitchers (it still isn't, really).

Babe Ruth, as a pitcher, has more in common with Bob Tewksbury than Tom Glavine. Ruth was better, but the same principle applies - pitchers who don't strike out batters don't last long, with very few exceptions.
Nice post. All the more info to consider Mays (or another select few) as possibly the greatest MLBer of all time.
Babe Ruth was a great hitter - a tremendous, transformational hitter - who was also a good pitcher for a few years. He wasn't a Hall of Fame-quality pitcher and a Hall of Fame-quality hitter.



I'll add to this that Ruth was not a good basestealer - he was caught almost as often as he successfully stole (even in that era, that was below average) and his triples reflect the parks he played in, not his actual speed (which was good when he was young - he was capable of playing center field - but never exceptional).

Even in his most successful season as a basestealer (1921, where he went 17/30), Ruth was barely above league average in success rate, at 56.6% compared to a league average of 55.6%. Ruth was not generating a lot of runs on the basepaths (his most famous moment as a baserunner was being caught stealing to end the 1926 World Series with Bob Meusel at the plate and Lou Gehrig on deck).
Nice post. All the more info to consider Mays as possibly the best all around MLBer of all time.
 

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