How do you rank the GOATS? Gretzky, Ruth, Jordan, Brady

[Big Phil]

Okay, we'll stick to the 4 major sports in North America for this one. Tom Brady just won his 7th Super Bowl and his 10th appearance. That's unreal. John Elway who played in 5 Super Bowls is the next closest QB in history to him and unless someone like Patrick Mahomes has a ridiculous career I don't think anyone is getting close...............and even then. So I think we are past the point where there is a debate anymore about Brady being the best the NFL has ever had.

I added Gretzky for obvious reasons, Jordan too for the same reason. Ruth I figure is still the favourite for the best baseball player ever. So between these 4 where do they rank?

Is Gretzky considered the best to dominate his sport? To be honest I think only Ruth would be the one to give him a run for his money as far as dominance goes and I think Gretzky still wins out, but it is a good debate. Jordan I figure has a better shot at #1 if he didn't retire three times. Or maybe there are people that love Brady's post season dominance and figure that makes up for everything. Anyway, from #1-4 where do you rank them?

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[tarheelhockey]

Ruth/Gretzky

Jordan

Brady


Ruth and Gretzky enjoy special status in their sports, as being so dominant that nobody touches them. Jordan is one of several valid GOAT candidates in basketball.

Not a popular thing to say this week, but Brady illustrates the difference between athleticism and athletic achievements. He’s closer to Henri Richard than he is to Gretzky, IMO.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Ruth/Gretzky
Jordan
Brady

Ruth and Gretzky revolutionized their sport. Jordan did to a lesser degree. As good as Brady is, there are too many other variables that have fallen into place to help with his success.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Brady

Ruth

Orr

Lebron

 

[MadLuke]

I fee like Jordan is the best athlete of the bunch.

Volleyball / badminton / field hockey / cricket / soccer are maybe more played than Basketball world wide, but among the big north american 4, I think it is not close, Basketball is the biggest of them all (maybe because of Jordan too) but I giant amount from what I understand, 10:1 type of ratios.

And I feel like it attract top talent, it is rarely a number #2 from someone that failed in is number 1 option a la bobsled or sky jumping.

That said unlike being the best at soccer that automatically make you an obvious candidate for the best athlete on earth (Ronaldo is absolutely ridiculous) being the best at basketball is being the best among the very small percentage of the population (even if it is of the world population) that is above 6'3 or so. Olajuwon didn't play basketball until he was 15 and he is in argument for the goat center of all time, obviously Jordan played a style and position that is much more competitive than center (where I think 7% of the people above 7 feet make it to the nba or something that ridiculous), so it does put some question mark on the actual talent pool Jordan looked good in, that said I would not be surprised if genetically gifted human with the NBA physique are in average more gifted in sport as well, but I am not sure either of that.

Gretzky dominated a sport where the goat can be a very small, not specially strong men like himself, pointing out how large the talent pool he is competing with even thought it was not nearly has popular world wide than the others.

I do not understand what is going with Brady at all, he seem by a good amount at first glance the least special athlete of the goat candidate ever imaginated, but he is winning so much that at one point you cannot argue for Manning above him I imagine.

 

[JAMRG]

1 - Jordan (6 finals, 6 titles, 6 MVPs; playoff career ppg of 33.4)
2- Gretzky (#1 in career playoffs ppg by wide margin [1.84], despite enormous sample size; 4 Cups/2 MVPs; 3 Canada Cup titles/2 MVPs)
3 - Brady (7 SBs/5 MVPs; both records
4 - Ruth (didnt compete against non-whites)

 

[buffalowing88]

1. Jordan - He played on the least "stacked" teams at the most physically-demanding position outside of maybe #99., and just dominated the biggest moments with hardly a blemish on his record.
2. Gretzky- The greatest margin between him and his closest peers in terms of the totality of stats. Put him behind Jordan because he faded as a playoff performer sooner and has some seasons that ended shorter than I expected.
3. Brady- I think he has been surrounded by great talent throughout most of his career and he plays in a league that put the rules in his favor at his peak. But...he just keeps winning and the longevity has to be accounted for.
4. Ruth- If it wasn't him, another player would have begun to put up similar numbers within a matter of years as the MLB was beginning to enter an offensive boom period around 1920. I still think he's incredible, but I think the fact that he played with a loaded batting lineup that made it difficult to walk him, the fact that he was...ahem not the most athletic looking fella, and the fact that other players were putting up big HR and RBI numbers by the end of his peak, all have to count against him.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think the most substantial north american team sport athlete is bill russell.

2 NCAA championships, followed by 11 championships in 13 years, the last two as player-coach. so 15 championships in 17 years. 16 if you count his olympic gold medal.

five MVPs in eight years against the best his sport has to offer: wilt, oscar, and to a lesser degree pettit, elgin, and west.

but i think in the way that muhammad ali or pele transcended sport, russell is the north american pro team sports version. civil rights icon, centerpiece of the first all Black starting five, first Black coach in pro sports, march on washington, being the guy literally to the right of ali in ali’s vietnam press conference, 1961 kentucky game boycott. all that on top of unparalleled winning. it’s like brady’s championships plus manning’s individual success/MVPs plus kaepernick.

 

[SniperHF]

4. Ruth- If it wasn't him, another player would have begun to put up similar numbers within a matter of years as the MLB was beginning to enter an offensive boom period around 1920. I still think he's incredible, but I think the fact that he played with a loaded batting lineup that made it difficult to walk him,

I'm quite sure intentional walks were not nearly as common in Ruth's era as they were in say Bonds'. But Ruth was obviously intentionally walked in his career, it simply wasn't a tracked stat in those days.

He even wrote a Boston Post op-ed about how much he disliked intentional walks:
The Early Life and Career of Babe Ruth in His Own Words

the fact that he was...ahem not the most athletic looking fella,

Ruth was not always truly out of shape, google pictures of him in his younger years. Most of the pictures around are when he was older.

and the fact that other players were putting up big HR and RBI numbers by the end of his peak, all have to count against him.

Ruth's dominance was not really a function of the live ball era. It's true that the live ball era (along with shrinking ballparks) was guaranteed to increase home runs and power hitting in general. But Ruth's dominance over his peers and those who came after him is still visible today with virtually every stat imaginable. He leads for career in WAR, OPS, SLG%, OPS+. And is second in OBP only to Ted Williams.
He was 39 years old and STILL in the top 5 for OPS
The last season he lead the league in HR, he was 36 and aside from Gehrig, he lead 3rd place by 14 home runs. The power hitters that came after him were great, but they still didn't beat Ruth. If those players were going to put up similar numbers, we're still waiting. Even Trout, who looked like he could maybe do it, has started to look a little more human.

Not to mention he was actually a really good pitcher too. Like lead the AL in ERA good. It would be like if Gretzky had also suited up in net for half a decade and put up comparable sv% to full time goalies.

 

[MadLuke]

The power hitters that came after him were great, but they still didn't beat Ruth. If those players were going to put up similar numbers, we're still waiting. Even Trout, who looked like he could maybe do it, has started to look a little more human.

I imagine that exclude post 35 year's old Barry Bonds ?

 

[SniperHF]

I imagine that exclude post 35 year's old Barry Bonds ?

I do, but even if one considers Bonds full career it's still a step behind Ruth over his career.
Arguably as high a peak (I would argue against but there's a case), but when we're talking GOATs they've basically all had insane peaks. Ruth's prime was longer and he was more dominant.

 

[TimStrickland]

Brady is the greatest quaterback in NFL history, but the greatest athlete? No way.

Jordan
Gretzky
Brady
Ruth

 

[Bryce Newman]

Jordan isn't even close to Gretzky. Gretzky rewrote the record books while Jordan doesn't even have the most NBA points ever. He's 5th all-time. I don't know how anyone could ever say Jordan is the best athlete ever when it's highly debatable if he's even the best athlete within his own sport. With Gretzky there is no question he was the most dominant athlete ever. The only edge Jordan has over Gretzky is marketing and hype.

 

[Bryce Newman]

Ruth (didnt compete against non-whites)

Shouldn't be held against him, not his fault. He dominated his era, no matter who was playing. Nobody ever says Bobby Orr wasn't that great because he didn't compete against Europeans and Russians.

 

[tarheelhockey]

As far as basketball is concerned, it hasn’t been till recently with a lot of fan-produced content showing up on YT that I’ve really watched Wilt Chamberlain.

I believe you could actually time machine him to the present at face value and he’d still be the best player in the league. 7’1”, fast, nimble, powerful. There’s nothing to improve on.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Shouldn't be held against him, not his fault. He dominated his era, no matter who was playing. Nobody ever says Bobby Orr wasn't that great because he didn't compete against Europeans and Russians.

Orr being the greatest player of all time isn’t the most common opinion, but it’s certainly not a fringe one, at least not in HoH. A commonly held assessment is that of the 1970s being a particularly weak era for the NHL, due to expansion and the WHA attracting NHL level players, and it as well being before a substantial amount of Europeans were making the jump to the NHL, or having much of an impact while there. No, I can’t recall reading any arguments taking a serious dig at Orr’s legacy because of the era he played in, however I’ve read numerous against other greats of the 1970s and I’d imagine that for some that had considered Orr v Gretzky a very close call, the quality of era arguments may very well tip the scale in favor of the latter. And I don’t think it’s unreasonable.

 

[Bryce Newman]

Orr being the greatest player of all time isn’t the most common opinion, but it’s certainly not a fringe one, at least not in HoH. A commonly held assessment is that of the 1970s being a particularly weak era for the NHL, due to expansion and the WHA attracting NHL level players, and it as well being before a substantial amount of Europeans were making the jump to the NHL, or having much of an impact while there. No, I can’t recall reading any arguments taking a serious dig at Orr’s legacy because of the era he played in, however I’ve read numerous against other greats of the 1970s and I’d imagine that for some that had considered Orr v Gretzky a very close call, the quality of era arguments may very well tip the scale in favor of the latter. And I don’t think it’s unreasonable.

I actually do agree Orr should not be in the discussion for GOAT because the era he played in was extremely weak. He wouldn't be racking up Norris Trophies the way he did in the 60s if he played in the 90s with guys like Bourque, Leetch, MacInnis, Chelios etc. that was a highly competitive era. Orr's era he basically had no competition. 65% of the league was hot garbage for the reasons you mentioned. I'm amazed Orr only won 2 Cups playing in that terrible era.

 

[Damisoph]

Maybe due to the era in which I grew up but...

Gretzky
Jordan

Mays


Brady

 

[JAMRG]

Shouldn't be held against him, not his fault. He dominated his era, no matter who was playing. Nobody ever says Bobby Orr wasn't that great because he didn't compete against Europeans and Russians.

1976 Canada Cup champ and MVP

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

i think the most substantial north american team sport athlete is bill russell.

2 NCAA championships, followed by 11 championships in 13 years, the last two as player-coach. so 15 championships in 17 years. 16 if you count his olympic gold medal.

five MVPs in eight years against the best his sport has to offer: wilt, oscar, and to a lesser degree pettit, elgin, and west.

but i think in the way that muhammad ali or pele transcended sport, russell is the north american pro team sports version. civil rights icon, centerpiece of the first all Black starting five, first Black coach in pro sports, march on washington, being the guy literally to the right of ali in ali’s vietnam press conference, 1961 kentucky game boycott. all that on top of unparalleled winning. it’s like brady’s championships plus manning’s individual success/MVPs plus kaepernick.

That view would make Jean Beliveau the GOAT of hockey.

Russell won titles playing for great teams. Great leader, great person but far from greatest player.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Shouldn't be held against him, not his fault. He dominated his era, no matter who was playing. Nobody ever says Bobby Orr wasn't that great because he didn't compete against Europeans and Russians.

Actually, some people do say that.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Jordan isn't even close to Gretzky. Gretzky rewrote the record books while Jordan doesn't even have the most NBA points ever. He's 5th all-time. I don't know how anyone could ever say Jordan is the best athlete ever when it's highly debatable if he's even the best athlete within his own sport. With Gretzky there is no question he was the most dominant athlete ever. The only edge Jordan has over Gretzky is marketing and hype.

Isn’t that because he retired for 4.5 years? He seemed like he would have caught Kareem Abdul-Jabbar otherwise, having led the NBA in points on 11 occasions (same as Gretzky in the NHL).

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I actually do agree Orr should not be in the discussion for GOAT because the era he played in was extremely weak. He wouldn't be racking up Norris Trophies the way he did in the 60s if he played in the 90s with guys like Bourque, Leetch, MacInnis, Chelios etc. that was a highly competitive era. Orr's era he basically had no competition. 65% of the league was hot garbage for the reasons you mentioned. I'm amazed Orr only won 2 Cups playing in that terrible era.

No offense, but I don't think you know much about what you are talking about.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

4. Ruth- If it wasn't him, another player would have begun to put up similar numbers within a matter of years as the MLB was beginning to enter an offensive boom period around 1920. I still think he's incredible, but I think the fact that he played with a loaded batting lineup that made it difficult to walk him, the fact that he was...ahem not the most athletic looking fella, and the fact that other players were putting up big HR and RBI numbers by the end of his peak, all have to count against him.

Yet he led the league in walks 11 times. With Lou Gehrig behind him. Third all-time in walks only because Bonds beat him out by walking over 200 times a season in his giant head years.

Beside lapping the field offensively, he was a Hall of Fame level pitcher who held the record for consecutive scoreless innings in the World Series for longer than he held the record for home runs in a season.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Ruth/Gretzky
Jordan
Brady

Ruth and Gretzky revolutionized their sport. Jordan did to a lesser degree. As good as Brady is, there are too many other variables that have fallen into place to help with his success.

How did Gretzky revolutionize the sport?