How did the AHL get ruined

[Ralph Slate]

From what I have heard, cross-country travel costs can be immense. Think about it: the average AHL team budget is around $3-4m. I have heard that Tucson is spending $700k on travel, and it plays mostly in California. Compare that with with $50-75k for Springfield. Adding $650k more in travel is 20% more in expenses, no additional revenue.

Assuming 38 games at a 4,000 break-even point, that means the additional $650k spread across tickets sold would add $4.25 per ticket. That would probably just pay for travel to the midwest, not to California, which is further away.

I'm not so sure that adding maybe 4-6 more home games against teams from the midwest is worth $1-2 more per ticket across all home games.

We are going to see Toronto this year though, which is nice.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

From what I have heard, cross-country travel costs can be immense. Think about it: the average AHL team budget is around $3-4m. I have heard that Tucson is spending $700k on travel, and it plays mostly in California. Compare that with with $50-75k for Springfield. Adding $650k more in travel is 20% more in expenses, no additional revenue.

Assuming 38 games at a 4,000 break-even point, that means the additional $650k spread across tickets sold would add $4.25 per ticket. That would probably just pay for travel to the midwest, not to California, which is further away.

I'm not so sure that adding maybe 4-6 more home games against teams from the midwest is worth $1-2 more per ticket across all home games.

We are going to see Toronto this year though, which is nice.

They need a better travel manager and logistics coordinator.

 

[go comets]

They need a better travel manager and logistics coordinator.

Travel in California will be more expensive than most of the traditional north east cities. San Diego, LA, San Jose, what about those cities is going to be cheap?? Your flying 25-30 players,staff,trainers,radio announcers, hotels, still need a bus to get from hotel to rink.... this is why the west division plays less games.....

 

[axecrew]

Travel in California will be more expensive than most of the traditional north east cities. San Diego, LA, San Jose, what about those cities is going to be cheap?? Your flying 25-30 players,staff,trainers,radio announcers, hotels, still need a bus to get from hotel to rink.... this is why the west division plays less games.....

What do the cities in the Northeast even have to do with this conversation? We are talking about teams in the same western conference...if it is SO cost prohibitive to fly anywhere why have all 5 of the original western teams made trips to the midwest and within their own conference? And I would suspect Tuscon will follow suit once they get their feet under them financially. So it's more expensive to fly multiple times to texas and san antonio then it is to fly to the midwest?! Okay..whatever you say chief...bottomline is if they didn't want to spend the money to travel they should've stayed in their cushy little bus conference. They didn't so they have obviously weighed it all out and decided that it was a cost they can live with. So since they are ok with it...why are you not?

 

[MiamiHockey]

From what I have heard, cross-country travel costs can be immense. Think about it: the average AHL team budget is around $3-4m. I have heard that Tucson is spending $700k on travel, and it plays mostly in California. Compare that with with $50-75k for Springfield. Adding $650k more in travel is 20% more in expenses, no additional revenue.

Assuming 38 games at a 4,000 break-even point, that means the additional $650k spread across tickets sold would add $4.25 per ticket. That would probably just pay for travel to the midwest, not to California, which is further away.

I'm not so sure that adding maybe 4-6 more home games against teams from the midwest is worth $1-2 more per ticket across all home games.

We are going to see Toronto this year though, which is nice.

It is well-established that one of the key benefits of the AHL West for Pacific Division teams is that it enables them to save NHL salary by having fewer players on their active NHL roster.

For players who can be regularly demoted / promoted, they typically have an NHL salary that is ~ 8 - 10 times greater than their AHL salary. Most players on ELCs have a base salary of ~$900k and an AHL salary of ~$90k, give or take. As a result of this big difference in salary, having their AHL team close by enables NHL teams to save somewhere in the range of $1-2M in salary over the course of the year, either through short-term demotions, or simply by carrying fewer than the maximum roster. That amount of money more than compensates for some additional travel expenses that you point out.

The salary cap has changed the way you need to look at AHL team budgets. Most NHL teams spend at or near the cap - and of those, many have deep, deep pockets (LA, SJ, Edm, Cgy). For those teams, AHL costs and revenues are but a drop in the bucket, and they will gladly pay those additional travel costs if it makes their NHL team better off.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Travel in California will be more expensive than most of the traditional north east cities. San Diego, LA, San Jose, what about those cities is going to be cheap?? Your flying 25-30 players,staff,trainers,radio announcers, hotels, still need a bus to get from hotel to rink.... this is why the west division plays less games.....

Hotels, airfare, bus rental, etc. are no different there than in say Chicago or Houston or Milwaukee or Des Moines, or Winnipeg or Grand Rapids or Austin r anywhere else. Hotels are between 75 and 100 a night especially when booked out that far in advance. The only place where hotels wee significantly different is NYC. Even there I am getting rooms at one of the marriotts midtown for $250 a night.

Airfare vary wildly as well. Chicago to Miami has been as low as $250 round trip and as high as $650 round trip.

Again, purchasing so far in advance gets a big discount.

My wife does corporate travel and I have top elite lvel at 3 different top hotel chains and second highest airline elite on two of the biggest airlines in the world.

 

[go comets]

It is well-established that one of the key benefits of the AHL West for Pacific Division teams is that it enables them to save NHL salary by having fewer players on their active NHL roster.

For players who can be regularly demoted / promoted, they typically have an NHL salary that is ~ 8 - 10 times greater than their AHL salary. Most players on ELCs have a base salary of ~$900k and an AHL salary of ~$90k, give or take. As a result of this big difference in salary, having their AHL team close by enables NHL teams to save somewhere in the range of $1-2M in salary over the course of the year, either through short-term demotions, or simply by carrying fewer than the maximum roster. That amount of money more than compensates for some additional travel expenses that you point out.

The salary cap has changed the way you need to look at AHL team budgets. Most NHL teams spend at or near the cap - and of those, many have deep, deep pockets (LA, SJ, Edm, Cgy). For those teams, AHL costs and revenues are but a drop in the bucket, and they will gladly pay those additional travel costs if it makes their NHL team better off.

Idk what the rules are about when a player gets called up, when does his NHL salary start and end??? I know here in Utica, Vancouver would tell players to start traveling the day before the announced a call up in some instances...

 

[wildcat48]

Hotels, airfare, bus rental, etc. are no different there than in say Chicago or Houston or Milwaukee or Des Moines, or Winnipeg or Grand Rapids or Austin r anywhere else. Hotels are between 75 and 100 a night especially when booked out that far in advance. The only place where hotels wee significantly different is NYC. Even there I am getting rooms at one of the marriotts midtown for $250 a night.

Airfare vary wildly as well. Chicago to Miami has been as low as $250 round trip and as high as $650 round trip.

Again, purchasing so far in advance gets a big discount.

My wife does corporate travel and I have top elite lvel at 3 different top hotel chains and second highest airline elite on two of the biggest airlines in the world.

Many teams do not begin to solidify their travel until the final schedule has been approved because changes can still happen at the last minute. I get what you’re saying about travel because I also have to – or I should say had to – travel and spent many nights in hotels. But, for whatever reason it never seemed to apply to travel for sports teams. I wrote this in another thread, but I think it applies here as well.

Not that it matters because Portland is gone, but they had one of the easiest travel schedules until the Pacific Division was formed. Last year according to several people that I've spoken to about the demise of the team, travel cost was the No. 2 expense behind the affiliation fee. Portland's travel budget was almost $500k last season up nearly $150k from the year before. Portland only flew when they traveled to St. John’s or maybe Toronto, but even busing from city to city is expensive. Teams usually do not rent the bus on a per game basis, but lease it for a season. Depending on the lease, it may or may not include the driver. It never includes the fuel, insurance or state and federal surcharges for operating a bus. Hotels are not as simply as booking the cheapest hotel. The CBA mandates that hotels meet a certain standard. Teams also have to allow a player to have a single room if they request it based on their tenure. There is also per diem, team meals for breakfast lunch and dinner. Most hotels include a continental style breakfast in the cost of the rooms. Lunch and team dinner are not included. If a team does fly, they not only have to pay the cost of each player for a commercial flight, but they also pay a weight surcharge for their equipment. Teams that fly also have to pay for a bus for the time they are on the ground whether it’s just to get from the airport to the hotel and rink or if they are going to use it to travel to another city.

After looking at what a team spends and listen to – in my case Brad Church – break it down item by item it’s very easy to see why private ownership groups want to minimize travel cost. For an NHL team, it’s the cost of doing business and when folded into the grand scheme of the operation they’d rather have their operation close for salary cap purposes than save on travel cost at the AHL level. Only five, 10 years ago, it was the complete opposite. NHL teams wanted to be in a cluster so they could help save on travel cost but allow players to have more practice, medical and rest time.

 

[wildcat48]

From what I have heard, cross-country travel costs can be immense. Think about it: the average AHL team budget is around $3-4m. I have heard that Tucson is spending $700k on travel, and it plays mostly in California. Compare that with with $50-75k for Springfield. Adding $650k more in travel is 20% more in expenses, no additional revenue.

Assuming 38 games at a 4,000 break-even point, that means the additional $650k spread across tickets sold would add $4.25 per ticket. That would probably just pay for travel to the midwest, not to California, which is further away.

I'm not so sure that adding maybe 4-6 more home games against teams from the midwest is worth $1-2 more per ticket across all home games.

We are going to see Toronto this year though, which is nice.

Travel is more than $50-$75k for Springfield.... I'm willing to bet its closer to Portland in the $400-$500k range.

 

[royals119]

Idk what the rules are about when a player gets called up, when does his NHL salary start and end??? I know here in Utica, Vancouver would tell players to start traveling the day before the announced a call up in some instances...

It starts from when they call him, so they pay the NHL salary (and take the cap hit for it) while he is traveling. Sometimes they don't make the press release right away, but the cap hit still applies. So, if San Jose called a player from Springfield for one game they took the cap hit for at least three days of salary (one for travel west, one for the game, and one for travel east). If they call a player now from the Barracuda for one game, and both teams are home, they only pay one day of NHL salary, because he can just walk down the hall. Add that up over a whole season of callups and it becomes real money. On top of that most teams that have an affiliate on the other side of the country won't just call up a player for one game, they will just keep him on the NHL roster and scratch him most games so he is there when needed. If the AHL affiliate is nearby it is easy to send a guy down for a few games and still get him back quickly, so they can send players down that they wouldn't have before. That adds up even more. Even if the player is actually getting the same money, the salary cap hit is more significant to teams that are spending close to the cap.

 

[Captain Crash]

Even if the player is actually getting the same money, the salary cap hit is more significant to teams that are spending close to the cap.

This. Whether they save actual money or not, teams really want the cap advantage. When managed strategically this way, a nearby affiliate can be the difference in fitting in a deadline trade acquisition. That alone is worth travel expenditures to most teams.

 

[210]

It starts from when they call him, so they pay the NHL salary (and take the cap hit for it) while he is traveling. Sometimes they don't make the press release right away, but the cap hit still applies. So, if San Jose called a player from Springfield for one game they took the cap hit for at least three days of salary (one for travel west, one for the game, and one for travel east). If they call a player now from the Barracuda for one game, and both teams are home, they only pay one day of NHL salary, because he can just walk down the hall. Add that up over a whole season of callups and it becomes real money. On top of that most teams that have an affiliate on the other side of the country won't just call up a player for one game, they will just keep him on the NHL roster and scratch him most games so he is there when needed. If the AHL affiliate is nearby it is easy to send a guy down for a few games and still get him back quickly, so they can send players down that they wouldn't have before. That adds up even more. Even if the player is actually getting the same money, the salary cap hit is more significant to teams that are spending close to the cap.

No cap hit once a player has been assigned to the minors.

 

[Disengage]

No cap hit once a player has been assigned to the minors.

Yes there is if the player is on a one way contract.

http://www.colliganhockey.com/nhl-cba-how-do-buried-contracts-work/

 

[210]

Yes there is if the player is on a one way contract.

http://www.colliganhockey.com/nhl-cba-how-do-buried-contracts-work/

In that specific instance there is, but not in the way royals119 was indicating.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Travel is more than $50-$75k for Springfield.... I'm willing to bet its closer to Portland in the $400-$500k range.

Definitely. Generally, even if the bus is leased for the season as you mention above, it's still going to cost around $1,500 per day - and that's before you get to fuel, a second driver, per diem for the driver, etc. Multiply that by 41, assuming there's no hotel stays, and you get the bare minimum a team is paying for the bus alone.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

The funny thing about nostalgia is that we tend to remember the good things & forget about the bad.

 

[MiamiHockey]

It starts from when they call him, so they pay the NHL salary (and take the cap hit for it) while he is traveling. Sometimes they don't make the press release right away, but the cap hit still applies. So, if San Jose called a player from Springfield for one game they took the cap hit for at least three days of salary (one for travel west, one for the game, and one for travel east). If they call a player now from the Barracuda for one game, and both teams are home, they only pay one day of NHL salary, because he can just walk down the hall. Add that up over a whole season of callups and it becomes real money. On top of that most teams that have an affiliate on the other side of the country won't just call up a player for one game, they will just keep him on the NHL roster and scratch him most games so he is there when needed. If the AHL affiliate is nearby it is easy to send a guy down for a few games and still get him back quickly, so they can send players down that they wouldn't have before. That adds up even more. Even if the player is actually getting the same money, the salary cap hit is more significant to teams that are spending close to the cap.

The players who would get sent up and down would, in reality, all need to be waiver-exempt. There's a set of rules regarding waiver exemption, but a good rule of thumb is that players on the ELC are those who qualify. In theory, a veteran could be sent up and down (Hello, Nikita Nikitin) but the process of constantly clearing waivers, and the negative impression created by yo-yoing a veteran player would make that an unpalatable scenario.

In theory, a team could keep only 20 players on its roster (the required starting lineup). Over the course of the season, that works out to roughly $2-2.7M in savings (assuming three players saved are ELC, depending on actual NHL salary).

In reality, teams in the West would likely keep 21 or 22 players on the active roster. That move alone (cutting the 23rd guy) could be worth $1-2M. Sending the 22nd player up and down a few times could save another $300K (give or take).

When you add it all up, for a well-managed team, those savings over the course of a year ($1-2M) are worth a ton, especially at the trade deadline, when that cap space could enable a GM to add a veteran player for the playoffs.

Well worth the travel costs, indeed.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

The players who would get sent up and down would, in reality, all need to be waiver-exempt. There's a set of rules regarding waiver exemption, but a good rule of thumb is that players on the ELC are those who qualify. In theory, a veteran could be sent up and down (Hello, Nikita Nikitin) but the process of constantly clearing waivers, and the negative impression created by yo-yoing a veteran player would make that an unpalatable scenario.

In theory, a team could keep only 20 players on its roster (the required starting lineup). Over the course of the season, that works out to roughly $2-2.7M in savings (assuming three players saved are ELC, depending on actual NHL salary).

In reality, teams in the West would likely keep 21 or 22 players on the active roster. That move alone (cutting the 23rd guy) could be worth $1-2M. Sending the 22nd player up and down a few times could save another $300K (give or take).

When you add it all up, for a well-managed team, those savings over the course of a year ($1-2M) are worth a ton, especially at the trade deadline, when that cap space could enable a GM to add a veteran player for the playoffs.

Well worth the travel costs, indeed.

And that savings goes a long way towards funding a minor league system...

 

[voyageur]

I think the AHL is on the right track. Expanding beyond on its traditional territory of New England, New York and Pennsylvania. The IHL brought the hockey passion of the heartland to the league. Western expansion facilitates the growth of the game. Affiliates should be based on regional support, to ensure the fan base is invested in the team. Though I think the NHL should invest in a Southern division in the A, to give fans an affordable interest in the sport, expanding the footprint.I hope that growth brings in new markets: Victoria, BC, Tacoma, Idaho, Utah to expand hockey's footprint. I think the AHL would get a huge boost by shaking a few more apples from the CHL, allowing 19 year olds to get minor league development, which gives Canadian juniors an opportunity that Europeans and American college players get. Increasing the development aspect, which is an attraction for fans. As a Moose fan I was fortunate to see Price, Subban, Spezza, Edler, Kesler, Schneider and Morrissey among others develop into pros.

 

[Ralph Slate]

The IHL brought the hockey passion of the heartland to the league.

Yet this is exactly what is not happening, because the AHL teams are moving within 150 miles of their NHL parent, with several instances of them playing in the same exact city.

Because the AHL is now occupying 2nd-tier cities across the USA, this is hampering other regional leagues from forming because key cities are already occupied.