How crazy is it that Ovechkin may tie Gretkzy and Bossy for most 50-goal seasons this year?

[powerbomb]

There's no questioning that Ovechkin has been a prolific goalscorer, but anointing him the GOAT is still ridiculous. Best of his generation, sure, I can't argue with that. He's always had a blistering shot and it's been fun to watch him rack up Rockets in his career. Heck, I'm even rooting for him to ultimately break Gretzky's mark because it would be a legendary accomplishment... but I can't help but wonder if those who think it's insane for him to NOT be considered the greatest already has ever watched those old guys play.

For me, Mario Lemieux is the greatest goalscorer I've ever watched. His career shooting percentage of 19% is a testament to all the ways he could beat a team. Wayne Gretzky was the greatest playmaker I saw play. He was on another level. It's not to take anything away from the current star players of the league--it is a different era and the game has changed, so frankly comparing across time is silly to begin with... but as for me, I'm going to wait to see how the rest of Ovechkin's career plays out before I decide he should be on hockey's Mt. Rushmore.

 

[alko]

But Gretzky will never break Ovi's main board threads record.

If we will make something like "Adjusted statistics" with Hfboard threads, maybe he will.

 

[RorschachWJK]

Let's see what Ovie can do with a full on solid wood stick and a legal curve.

And I'm an Ovechkin fan.

Sure...and then you factor in Bossy-era cardboard figure goalies, small goalie equipment, lack of systematic shot blocking and undeveloped team defensive systems in general....

 

[Plural]

Let's see what Ovie can do with a full on solid wood stick and a legal curve.

And I'm an Ovechkin fan.

Even if they scored using dandelions as sticks, scoring was higher back in the 80's and early 90's.

 

[SwaggySpungo]

There's no questioning that Ovechkin has been a prolific goalscorer, but anointing him the GOAT is still ridiculous. Best of his generation, sure, I can't argue with that. He's always had a blistering shot and it's been fun to watch him rack up Rockets in his career. Heck, I'm even rooting for him to ultimately break Gretzky's mark because it would be a legendary accomplishment... but I can't help but wonder if those who think it's insane for him to NOT be considered the greatest already has ever watched those old guys play.

For me, Mario Lemieux is the greatest goalscorer I've ever watched. His career shooting percentage of 19% is a testament to all the ways he could beat a team. Wayne Gretzky was the greatest playmaker I saw play. He was on another level. It's not to take anything away from the current star players of the league--it is a different era and the game has changed, so frankly comparing across time is silly to begin with... but as for me, I'm going to wait to see how the rest of Ovechkin's career plays out before I decide he should be on hockey's Mt. Rushmore.

You can’t discount what Ovechkin is in the process of accomplishing, but having watched both play, I’m picking Lemieux 10 times out of 10, even if we are only factoring in goal scoring.

 

[The Panther]

Gretzky was not in the top 10 in goals in 87/88, 89/90 or 90/91, all of which were before the Suter hit.

Not really. Gretzky was still an elite goal-scorer up to autumn 1991.

Don't believe Hockey Ref's stat that Gretzky was #2 in GPG (he was easily 1st in total goals) in 1986-87. He scored exactly the same number of goals Lemieux did in the same number of games Lemieux played (i.e., 54 in 63).

In 1987-88, at the time of Gretzky's injury (on Dec. 30th, 1987 -- I remember the game well), he and Mario were virtually tied in goals. (Looks it up on NHL.com....). At that moment in time, Mario had 31 goals and Wayne was injured scoring his 30th, which put him 2nd in the NHL (his shooting percentage was also way higher than Lemieux's, and he had more assists). In other words, he was on pace for 63 goals at the time of his injury.

In 1988-89, he was 6th in the NHL (bearing in mind this was the first of only two seasons in history where three players scored 65 or more goals... and it was his first year with a new team.)

1989-90 was a bit of an off-year in terms of goal-scoring, but even that season he was 6th or 7th in goals around the time of the All Star break. (He slumped for about 10 games after that, when his buddy Nicholls was traded.)

In 1990-91 (one of his strongest-ever seasons), he was on pace for 50 goals at exactly mid-season, putting him around 6th in the League (his shooting percentage to then was higher than Brett Hull's). In the second half, he picked up the assists (the Kings were really strong during this latter half of the season), recording a staggering 72 in the latter half of the season, but his goals plummeted to 16 in the latter half.

After the '91 Canada Cup, Gretzky was never again an impressive goal-scorer in the regular season (though he could still get it done in the playoffs, when needed).

My point being: When a guy is tossing up 110 to 125 assists per season while also scoring goals in the 40 to 50-pace, it is pretty much beyond doubt that he could have been scoring more goals if he had been focused on it (as, say, a Brett Hull or Alex Ovechkin generally was/is).

Obviously I'm not arguing to give Gretzky credit for things he didn't do, but I am saying that he was surely still a very elite goal-scorer between 1987-88 and 1990-91. After that, there's a huge fall-off not only in terms of his goal-scoring but most noticeably his even-strength production.

 

[Deen]

Ovechkin in the Homer Simpson of Hockey.

 

[bobholly39]

In other news, Ovechkin has cured cancer and achieved peace in the Middle East. The World Bank wants him to solve economic disparity, and the New York Times has already declared him Man of the Millennium, because, let's face it, who in the next 980 years is going to equal his achievements?

Sidney Crosby, because he's better.

 

[Sam Spade]

Sidney Crosby, because he's better.

He is a fantastic player and lived up to all of his pre draft hype but this is actually one thread were a two time 40 goal plus scorer should not be brought up.

It would be like bringing up Ovechkin in a thread about faceoffs.

 

[daver]

Ovechkin in the Homer Simpson of Hockey.

Who is Peter Griffin?

 

[third man in]

Insane stat, just reinforces that OV is GOAT goalscorer

he will go down in history as the number 1 sniper, i can easily see him scoring 30+ for the next few years

Yeah especially since one of those years was the 48 game lockout shortened season

 

[daver]

There's no questioning that Ovechkin has been a prolific goalscorer, but anointing him the GOAT is still ridiculous. Best of his generation, sure, I can't argue with that. He's always had a blistering shot and it's been fun to watch him rack up Rockets in his career. Heck, I'm even rooting for him to ultimately break Gretzky's mark because it would be a legendary accomplishment... but I can't help but wonder if those who think it's insane for him to NOT be considered the greatest already has ever watched those old guys play.

For me, Mario Lemieux is the greatest goalscorer I've ever watched. His career shooting percentage of 19% is a testament to all the ways he could beat a team. Wayne Gretzky was the greatest playmaker I saw play. He was on another level. It's not to take anything away from the current star players of the league--it is a different era and the game has changed, so frankly comparing across time is silly to begin with... but as for me, I'm going to wait to see how the rest of Ovechkin's career plays out before I decide he should be on hockey's Mt. Rushmore.

Can't really see how he doesn't share the GOAT goalscorer mantle with Hull and Richard and how Wayne and Mario (and Howe to a certain degree) were simply such GOAT all around offensive forces that comparing them to OV strictly on a goalscoring basis is doing them a disservice.

If OV had bettered any those mentioned above with his peak season (s) then it becomes more plausible. As it stands, Wayne, Hull, Richard, Mario had superior peak season (s).

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Ovechkin's longevity is mostly due to completely reinventing his game.

His first few years he was a raging bull on skates. Bulldozing through players with force.

A few things happened, but one of the key things, was the Montreal series. The 'book' on OV was how to stand him up, while goalies began to expect the shot through the defenseman's screen he used to always use.

That was the year his production dropped to 32 Goals.

And as much as everyone hated Adam Oates as a coach, he's the one who sort of transformed OV's game into being more of a Brett Hull type player.. using his physical advantage to force his way into scoring positions.

This is waaay harder to stop.

OV went from being a puck carrying forward, to one who lets the puck come to him.

 

[JackSlater]

Ovechkin is of course an impressive goal scorer and probably the most accomplished all time already. This sort of thing is just trivia though.

 

[Sam Spade]

Press play.

 

[HockeySniper]

Best player of his generation

 

[bobholly39]

There's no questioning that Ovechkin has been a prolific goalscorer, but anointing him the GOAT is still ridiculous. Best of his generation, sure, I can't argue with that. He's always had a blistering shot and it's been fun to watch him rack up Rockets in his career. Heck, I'm even rooting for him to ultimately break Gretzky's mark because it would be a legendary accomplishment... but I can't help but wonder if those who think it's insane for him to NOT be considered the greatest already has ever watched those old guys play.

For me, Mario Lemieux is the greatest goalscorer I've ever watched. His career shooting percentage of 19% is a testament to all the ways he could beat a team. Wayne Gretzky was the greatest playmaker I saw play. He was on another level. It's not to take anything away from the current star players of the league--it is a different era and the game has changed, so frankly comparing across time is silly to begin with... but as for me, I'm going to wait to see how the rest of Ovechkin's career plays out before I decide he should be on hockey's Mt. Rushmore.

You have to be able to differentiate between "best" and "greatest".

To me greatest is the one who accomplished the most. Ovechkin's rockets, and consistency at scoring goals (remember - huge differences in scoring rates between now and Lemieux/Gretzky years, so it's that much more impressive what Ovi is doing) are amazing. He absolutely has a case for greatest ever. Is it too soon? Do you want to wait till he retires, or till he reaches 802 goals maybe (to top Howe)? Sure, that's ok I suppose. But i don't see anyway he doesn't earn the GOAT title - even without passing 894 goals, and even if he doesn't win any more accolades/rockets by career end. He's just scored goals way more regularly and consistently than anyone else in his career, and deserves recognition.

"Best" is a bit more tricky. Just because a player is the best at something - it doesn't mean he did it often enough to be called the greatest. And Lemieux and Gretzky are both worthy of "best", depending on your preference. Gretzky has all those crazy peak records, 92 goals, 87, etc. But - he eventually trailed off a lot, focusing more on playmaking 0therwise instead of 894 he might have 1100 goals. Lemieux - is probably the most talented goal-scorer ever. But - his career wasn't all that long. At some point - accumulating enough career goals, and rockets - should be enough for Ovechkin to earn the distinction of being labeled a "greater goal-scorer" than Lemieux was.

 

[bobholly39]

Can't really see how he doesn't share the GOAT goalscorer mantle with Hull and Richard and how Wayne and Mario (and Howe to a certain degree) were simply such GOAT all around offensive forces that comparing them to OV strictly on a goalscoring basis is doing them a disservice.

If OV had bettered any those mentioned above with his peak season (s) then it becomes more plausible. As it stands, Wayne, Hull, Richard, Mario had superior peak season (s).

Both Hulls have superior goal-scoring peak seasons to Ovi (at least - Brett Hull does, not sure off hand for Bobby, maybe).
Doesn't matter. Enough longevity/consistency is enough for Ovi to surpass all those guys as the legitimate greatest goal-scorer of all-time.

Isn't that Crosby's own argument for being seen as high as 5th greatest player of all-time? Many others have superior peak seasons after all.

 

[Fantomas]

For me, Mario Lemieux is the greatest goalscorer I've ever watched. His career shooting percentage of 19% is a testament to all the ways he could beat a team.

Craig Simpson's career 25.3 shooting percentage is a testament to all the ways he could beat a team.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Not really. Gretzky was still an elite goal-scorer up to autumn 1991.

Don't believe Hockey Ref's stat that Gretzky was #2 in GPG (he was easily 1st in total goals) in 1986-87. He scored exactly the same number of goals Lemieux did in the same number of games Lemieux played (i.e., 54 in 63).

In 1987-88, at the time of Gretzky's injury (on Dec. 30th, 1987 -- I remember the game well), he and Mario were virtually tied in goals. (Looks it up on NHL.com....). At that moment in time, Mario had 31 goals and Wayne was injured scoring his 30th, which put him 2nd in the NHL (his shooting percentage was also way higher than Lemieux's, and he had more assists). In other words, he was on pace for 63 goals at the time of his injury.

In 1988-89, he was 6th in the NHL (bearing in mind this was the first of only two seasons in history where three players scored 65 or more goals... and it was his first year with a new team.)

1989-90 was a bit of an off-year in terms of goal-scoring, but even that season he was 6th or 7th in goals around the time of the All Star break. (He slumped for about 10 games after that, when his buddy Nicholls was traded.)

In 1990-91 (one of his strongest-ever seasons), he was on pace for 50 goals at exactly mid-season, putting him around 6th in the League (his shooting percentage to then was higher than Brett Hull's). In the second half, he picked up the assists (the Kings were really strong during this latter half of the season), recording a staggering 72 in the latter half of the season, but his goals plummeted to 16 in the latter half.

After the '91 Canada Cup, Gretzky was never again an impressive goal-scorer in the regular season (though he could still get it done in the playoffs, when needed).

My point being: When a guy is tossing up 110 to 125 assists per season while also scoring goals in the 40 to 50-pace, it is pretty much beyond doubt that he could have been scoring more goals if he had been focused on it (as, say, a Brett Hull or Alex Ovechkin generally was/is).

Obviously I'm not arguing to give Gretzky credit for things he didn't do, but I am saying that he was surely still a very elite goal-scorer between 1987-88 and 1990-91. After that, there's a huge fall-off not only in terms of his goal-scoring but most noticeably his even-strength production.

What do you mean "not really"? Gretzky was not in the top 10 in goals in 87/88, 89/90 or 90/91. That's not opinion, it's fact. I don't really care what he was on pace for at the halfway mark or without a "10 game slump", the fact is he wasn't in the top 10. I never said if he was good or bad.

 

[Fantomas]

My point being: When a guy is tossing up 110 to 125 assists per season while also scoring goals in the 40 to 50-pace, it is pretty much beyond doubt that he could have been scoring more goals if he had been focused on it (as, say, a Brett Hull or Alex Ovechkin generally was/is).

Obviously I'm not arguing to give Gretzky credit for things he didn't do

Uh, yeah, you are, mate.

 

[daver]

Both Hulls have superior goal-scoring peak seasons to Ovi (at least - Brett Hull does, not sure off hand for Bobby, maybe).
Doesn't matter. Enough longevity/consistency is enough for Ovi to surpass all those guys as the legitimate greatest goal-scorer of all-time.

Isn't that Crosby's own argument for being seen as high as 5th greatest player of all-time? Many others have superior peak seasons after all.

I think Crosby's peak level of play, however it is measured, is on the same level of the others, which, along with a Howe-like length of elite prime which is on a level above the others, is pacing him towards #5.

OV is like the Gordie Howe of goalscorers. His peak may not be as high as two or three others but his longevity is moving him towards the top.

Noone argues that Howe's offensive abilities are the GOAT, nor should we do that for OV goalscoring abilities. And again, when two of his rivals for GOAT goalscorer are Wayne and Mario, that is enough of a caveat to keep him from being the consensus GOAT.

 

[IslesBro715]

I wouldn’t say it’s meaningless, it reinforces that Ovechkin has gotten better and is trending at a consistent pace as he’s gotten older, while all other top players in history have declined rapidly after the age of 30.

it also shows that Howe was a beast in his era


*edit* i meant this stat, my bad it was on the twitter thread

How many did Bossy score after 30?

 

[tony d]

Not crazy at all. The guy is just that talented. Looks like he'll get 50 again this year as well.

 

[The Panther]

Uh, yeah, you are, mate.

I'm not. I'm saying Gretzky was still an elite goal-scorer through the 1990-91 season. This is my opinion.