How can Matthews put himself in the convo with McDavid as “Best young player”?

[joe dirte]

Score 50+ goals and 100+ points. That’s just to pull even ish.

Not that I think Matthews will pass mcdavid but 50+ goals and 100+ points would put him well past. Not just past. Similar points with 10 to 15 more goals???

 

[Canucks1096]

Matthews needs to put up a few 100 plus point season. Don't think he has that skill and the hockey sense to do that.

Matthews is not a elite playmaker so his assists total won't be high. Let's say his assists gets to the 40 to 45 range. He will need 55 to 60 goals to get 100 points. Nobody score that many goals anymore.

I see Matthews getting between 80 to 90 points.

If he was a few days younger and he got drafted 3rd overall in 2015 instead. We will not be having this conversation right now.

 

[HOPE]

Not that I think Matthews will pass mcdavid but 50+ goals and 100+ points would put him well past. Not just past. Similar points with 10 to 15 more goals???

thing is mcdavid will end up scoring 50 goal too and possibly before and matthewsw will probably never do it.

 

[zeke]

I'm assuming these two paragraphs are what you're referring to as "already answered"?

Again, the bolded is you assuming the extra minutes would be favorable minutes. Why? Because he gets tough minutes now? Kadri gets matched up against the best on the other team if Babcock can get his way, so if Matthews took some of those tough minutes on top of what he already gets, why would that result in favorable?

The bolded is what I mean. Your entire argument is based on assuming Matthews' extra minutes would either be favorable or at least on par with his current O-zone/D-zone ratio. I'm saying you don't know that for certain.

let's try again.

1. no, I am not assuming his extra minutes would be favorable minutes. You are actually assuming they would be tougher ones.

2. you argue about ES/PP/PK time, when i explicitly matched the ES/PP/PK minutes already, so the objection doesn't even make sense.

3. you argue about tougher minutes, and I've pointed out to you Auston already plays elite quality of competition.

4. you argue about zone stars, and I've shown you that his zone starts have actually been much tougher than mcdavid's and others - in fact, if I wanted to push it, I could make a clear argument that Matthews explicitly isn't getting the easy offensive zone starts that other top scorers get, because babcock would give an inordinate share of those to his 3rd line (bozak/jvr).

now again, I'm not the one arguing about toughness of minutes. I'm not assuming that his extra minutes would be easier or tougher.

but I have directly addressed your concerns about why Matthews' extra minutes might actually be tougher - and based on the very specific concerns that you have mentioned, I've shown you that if you actually care about those factors - and aren't just bringing them up as a dishonest disctraction - you would conclude that yes, matthews extra minutes would more likely be easier than tougher.

and again, I'm not the one arguing about toughness of minutes. that's you. and the factors you yourself brought up would make an honest objective observer like yourself, one who cares about these factors like you seem to care about them, conclude that yes, matthews' extra minutes would more likely be easier than tougher.

that's you being the honest, objective observer that believes that things like zone starts are relevant here - not a disingenuous fake-objective observer who is just interested in doing anything to take credit away from matthews.

And that's why I keep mentioning Malkin as an example of how extra minutes doesn't automatically mean easier minutes. Yes, I know he gets soft minutes so that part isn't my point. My point is if we assume that Crosby got hurt and Malkin suddenly took his extra minute or two of ice time, it would consist of HARDER minutes, not more softer minutes. Malkin's D-zone percentage would go UP because the minutes he'd be taking would be a lot of the D-zone and N-zone draws Crosby currently takes. Yet, if we used your assumption, we'd just assume Malkin continues to get about 70% O-zone, but with 20 minutes instead of 18.

buy I mean WTF? I've shown you that that's exactly the opposite case with Matthews already. If you think that is a relevant argument, then you should be looking at Matthews' very low offensive zone starts and saying "wow, matthews is really getting screwed and it's not a fair compariosn to a guy like Malkin who gets such ridicuoously easy zone starts".

so what is it? are you an honest objective observer or not?

or are you going to just keep trying to avoid the very clear answers to your purported honest concerns?

 

[habsrule4eva3089]

May the sport of Hockey never have an "american" as its best player. Would be a sad day.

 

[Spawn]

I would say he needs to win a scoring title or two this point.

But then again, there was a 2 or 3 year stretch where the main stream media of the hockey world tried to convince everyone Jonathan Toews was the 2nd best player in the world.

It's all about perception.

 

[HOPE]

May the sport of Hockey never have an "american" as its best player. Would be a sad day.

i literally never thought of that, alot shit tone of talent in the USA tho... to me Hughes might be the closest prospect/player potential to mcdavid, still a big tier different if he reaches it... thats how good mcdavid is!

 

[joe dirte]

thing is mcdavid will end up scoring 50 goal too and possibly before and matthewsw will probably never do it.

Mcdavid might. He might not. Ever.

But there really is no basis to say that he will score more goals given that Matthews has him beat so far in his career in tgat capacity . And thats not really close either. Plus he's younger.

 

[HOPE]

Mcdavid might. He might not. Ever.

But there really is no basis to say that he will score more goals given that Matthews has him beat so far in his career in tgat capacity . And thats not really close either. Plus he's younger.

Matthews has a better release, wich is something mcdavid as been working on, he was always a first pass guy, he definitely as started to shoot little more... he create 2times more scoring chances than matthews... once he figures out his scoring touch, mcdavid will outgoal matthews. the difference between the 2 players is huge and it's unfortunate the leafs are the only one who can't see it simply for the jersey he's wearing.

edit: and come on... 4 month difference.

 

[joe dirte]

Matthews has a better release, wich is something mcdavid as been working on, he was always a first pass guy, he definitely as started to shoot little more... he create 2times more scoring chances than matthews... once he figures out his scoring touch, mcdavid will outgoal matthews. the difference between the 2 players is huge and it's unfortunate the leafs are the only one who can't see it simply for the jersey he's wearing.

edit: and come on... 4 month difference.

Matthews has spent his entire life being a better goal scorer but in your head mcdavid decided to work on his release so now that will change?

Lol. Yeah right kid.

 

[HOPE]

Matthews has spent his entire life being a better goal scorer but in your head mcdavid decided to work on his release so now that will change?

Lol. Yeah right kid.

scoring chances > Better release.

All im saying is Mcdavid working on his shot and figure out his scoring touch and being little less of a first pass guy, he'll definitly end up outscoring matthews, you can screenshot this if you want.

 

[joe dirte]

scoring chances > Better release.

All im saying is Mcdavid working on his shot and figure out his scoring touch and being little less of a first pass guy, he'll definitly end up outscoring matthews, you can screenshot this if you want.

Okay there.

 

[smokingwriter]

Matthews hasn't even managed as many points as McDavid has assists each of the past two seasons; I hardly expect a change this coming year.

Maybe one year he'll put up 80 points in a year when McDavid puts up 80+ assists.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

let's try again.

1. no, I am not assuming his extra minutes would be favorable minutes. You are actually assuming they would be tougher ones.

2. you argue about ES/PP/PK time, when i explicitly matched the ES/PP/PK minutes already, so the objection doesn't even make sense.

3. you argue about tougher minutes, and I've pointed out to you Auston already plays elite quality of competition.

4. you argue about zone stars, and I've shown you that his zone starts have actually been much tougher than mcdavid's and others - in fact, if I wanted to push it, I could make a clear argument that Matthews explicitly isn't getting the easy offensive zone starts that other top scorers get, because babcock would give an inordinate share of those to his 3rd line (bozak/jvr).

now again, I'm not the one arguing about toughness of minutes. I'm not assuming that his extra minutes would be easier or tougher.

but I have directly addressed your concerns about why Matthews' extra minutes might actually be tougher - and based on the very specific concerns that you have mentioned, I've shown you that if you actually care about those factors - and aren't just bringing them up as a dishonest disctraction - you would conclude that yes, matthews extra minutes would more likely be easier than tougher.

and again, I'm not the one arguing about toughness of minutes. that's you. and the factors you yourself brought up would make an honest objective observer like yourself, one who cares about these factors like you seem to care about them, conclude that yes, matthews' extra minutes would more likely be easier than tougher.

that's you being the honest, objective observer that believes that things like zone starts are relevant here - not a disingenuous fake-objective observer who is just interested in doing anything to take credit away from matthews.



buy I mean WTF? I've shown you that that's exactly the opposite case with Matthews already. If you think that is a relevant argument, then you should be looking at Matthews' very low offensive zone starts and saying "wow, matthews is really getting screwed and it's not a fair compariosn to a guy like Malkin who gets such ridicuoously easy zone starts".

so what is it? are you an honest objective observer or not?

or are you going to just keep trying to avoid the very clear answers to your purported honest concerns?

I guess we'll see this season. If Matthews ends up getting more minutes and produces as you expect him to (actual production -- not another "per60" stat while his raw production remains well, well back of McDavid's), then feel free to bump this and call me out on being wrong.

 

[Master P]

Some peoples insecurities are starting to show

 

[JIsles]

Bold prediction: Barzal, with his speed and the way he creates space, is the young player in the league that will closest approach McDavid's level.

 

[McVespa99]

Win an Art Ross or 2 without MaDavid missing a bunch of injury time. Or Win a couple Rockets and be in the top 5 for the Ross the same years.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

I don't understand this obsession with trying to put matthews on the same level as mcdavid. He's not.

This is as far in the thread I got. Thought I'd reply because this is the right answer.

I'm a Leafs fan and Matthews will never be as good as Connor McDavid, probably not even close.

And I don't care. Edmonton have the best player in the game, basically the new Sidney Crosby.

They're on another tier, that's the way it is.

I'm also really really happy that Matthews is on the Leafs, like REALLY f***ing happy, because he's a very very good player and amazing to watch, we also have some other really good players and the team is going in the best direction I've ever witnessed and that is the most important thing.

Just seems really idiotic to try and compare these guys to me because McDavid is obviously the better player by quite a margin and kudos to him.

 

[34]

If Matthews wins the Stanley Cup with Toronto this upcoming season, he is better.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

If Matthews wins the Stanley Cup with Toronto this upcoming season, he is better.

Not true.

No matter who wins the cup, people in the future will argue about who the best players were, Matthews will never put up McDavid numbers I'm fairly confident of that.

But If the Leafs win the cup no one in Toronto will give the slightest shit about how Matthews stacks up against McDavid etc. we want one thing and it's not player trophies, we want THE trophy and whoever contributes to that will be legends forever (or for about 50 years, maybe more?)

 

[nbwingsfan]

The poster you are responding to was completely correct. Matthews had been better than McDavid at that point in the season. There was really no debate about that. As I said in the post a couple above the one you quoted:

"Matthews has been better than McDavid this year so far. That doesn't mean that I think that Matthews is better than McDavid, nor does it mean that I think Matthews will be better than McDavid for the rest of the season, but Matthews has been better than McDavid so far this season."

"So far this season" had been what, 4-5 games at that point?

Congrats, I suppose...?

Also hilarious calling Matthews a top 5 player after a 5 game sample size as well. Might as well of said Sven Andrighetto is better than Matthews at that point as well.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Mcdavid might. He might not. Ever.

But there really is no basis to say that he will score more goals given that Matthews has him beat so far in his career in tgat capacity . And thats not really close either. Plus he's younger.

It's not really close? McDavid just scored more goals than Matthews ever has...?

 

[tucker3434]

It's not really close? McDavid just scored more goals than Matthews ever has...?

They’re really into pace this year.

If we were grading out goal scoring ability, I’d give Matthews the edge, but as you said, McDavid did just put up 41. Unless Matthews turns into Ovechkin, there won’t be a large gap there. The playmaking is what’s not close. I doubt Matthews ever breaks 50 assists. McDavid will probably average 70.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Let's see McDavid has more goals than Matthews 41 to 40, and is in another league as a playmaker with a 70 to 29. There is no conversation at this point, there probably will never be a conservation. McDavid is in his own conversation.

 

[Brunomics]

Bold prediction: Barzal, with his speed and the way he creates space, is the young player in the league that will closest approach McDavid's level.

While I understand the comparable I have to disagree. I don't think Barzal will be a consistant 30+ goal scorer. Probably 25-30 on average.