Holland's Replacement
- Thread starter The Zetterberg Era
- Start date
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
Was not the point of this thread, stated that rather clearly in the OP, go ahead and list them then put the accomplishments/failures of others I guess.
Darren McCarty will be the next GM. According to this board he could do a better job than Holland.
As a side note the new Red Wings sponsor will be Captain Morgan.
As a side note the new Red Wings sponsor will be Captain Morgan.
How many coaches in this league get fired and then immediately hired?
Is that because they're all so good?
There are worse GMs than Ken Holland and he could replace a fair number of them. He'd be especially good for rebuilding teams who need a guy that knows how to find winners in the draft no matter what position they're picking from.
But I think the top teams have better GMs now. They seem more nimble and adaptable in their movements.
How many coaches have been in charge of a team for roughly 2 decades winning 3 cups and never missing the playoffs while seeing the team through multiple rebuilds/retools?
Cause that guy would get hired immediately upon becoming available.
detredWINgs
Registered User
Some suggestions according to Pierre Lebrun (ca. 2013) Link
1. Jim Nill (Lol)
2. Ron Hextall (LAK)
3. Laurence Gilman (Van)
4. Paul Fenton (Nash)
5. Claude Loiselle (TO)
Others:
- Julien Brisebois (TB)
- Jim Benning (Bos)
- Jeff Gorton (NYR)
- Brad Treliving (Pho)
- Frank Provenzano (Dal)
- Jason Botterill (Pit)
- David McNabb (Ana)
1. Jim Nill (Lol)
2. Ron Hextall (LAK)
3. Laurence Gilman (Van)
4. Paul Fenton (Nash)
5. Claude Loiselle (TO)
Others:
- Julien Brisebois (TB)
- Jim Benning (Bos)
- Jeff Gorton (NYR)
- Brad Treliving (Pho)
- Frank Provenzano (Dal)
- Jason Botterill (Pit)
- David McNabb (Ana)
RedMenace
Registered User
Apparently any number of people from this board are more than qualified to take the job, so I'll vote for one of them.
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Most coaches get hired pretty immediately after they are available... It's not really much of a sign of anything.
Siiiiiigh.
I wonder what side Nill was on for some of these decisions. He only left a year ago. Surely he was part of the discussions.
dtones520
Registered User
What exactly does being more "nimble and adaptable" mean? Does it mean inheriting teams that got to draft super high for multiple years because they sucked and using guys like Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane, etc to build a team around? Yeah, I'd love to see how a guy like Ken Holland could botch a job like that.
The Wings had a system of building a team that worked for 12, including about 5 years after the lockout. It was a system based on veterans getting the ice time and the young players earning their spot over time. That system worked up until about 2 years ago, and we were still a competitive team, so heaven forbid a guy have to take a little time to adapt to a new way of doing things while still trying to stay competitive. As it stands right now, I think Holland has realized he needs to change things up, our moves with keeping guys like Sheahan and Jurco up speak to that. When healthy we are as good as anyone in the east, in my opinion. But our GM is terrible because he has had made a few mistakes lately while he adjusts his way of team building.
The Hawks after 2010 were in trouble. Everyone thought "they have to blow this team up because there's no way they can keep this talent together."
Well, look what they did 3 years later. Another cup. Yeah, they blew up the team sorta, but they added some cheap, young, homegrown talent, went and got the right guys through trades and free agency, and not only completely dominated last year but are doing it again this year. I loved their strategy. Identify the core. Keep them. Surround them with as much self-drafted talent as you can and fill in the gaps with guys from elsewhere. It kept their team fast, skilled, young, hungry, competitive.
That's pretty nimble and adaptable.
Boston's been good for a while now. They didn't tank for their stuff. They just build a thoroughly solid team and have been an ever present threat for years, shaping up to be one again this year.
I'd say also that St. Louis is a very good team and has been for a long time. Like San Jose, they just seem to come up short in the playoffs, but they've been competitive and honestly, a stronger team than the Wings for 4 years. I don't keep up with those teams as well as I do for Detroit, but the results seem to speak for themselves.
There are clearly teams out there with GMs who have consistently kept their teams more threatening than the Wings for the past few years.
obey86
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2009
- 8,013
- 1,274
The Blues have been a stronger team than the Wings in recent years? The results speak for themselves? Uh ok.
2009-2010 - Blues miss playoffs, Wings #5 seed
2010-2011 - Blues miss playoffs, Wings #3 seed
2011-2012 - Blues 109 points and 1st round loss, Wings 102 points and 2nd round loss EVEN
2012-2013 - Blues 60 points and 1st round loss, Wings 56 points and 2nd round loss EVEN
2013-2014 - Blues 90 points, Wings 71 points
I'd say this is the first season the Blues have clearly been on another level than the Wings. 2011 and 2012 AT BEST the Blues were even with the Wings....Blues had a few more points in regular season but Wings made it a round farther in playoffs = roughly even. The Blues haven't accomplished anymore than the Wings have UNTIL THIS SEASON. The results don't speak for anything.
Also, for your Hawks example...it's easier to make the moves they did and go for it and do mass retools or whatever when you have superstars/stars ages 22/23 or whatever. If Zetterberg and Datsyuk were 22/23 year old stars right now i'm sure the Red Wings approach to everything would be a lot different than what it has been the last few years. Maybe you are one of those guys who wants to see the Wings make one last gasp all in effort to get Z and Dats another cup but i'm not. I would hate that because of the shambles the team would be in afterwards. I don't see the hurry or rush to do something. The Wings are building something with all these young guys coming up...maybe it works maybe it doesn't...time will tell.
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Mount Suribachi
Registered User
Credit to the Hawks, they did a realgud job rebuilding after 2010, and they're now in a strong position for the next 5+ years. However, that philosophy you describe is exactly the one Holland has espoused all throughout the cap era. He's repeatedly referred to what he calls the "Patriots philosophy" - pay big money to retain your core players (Dats, Z, Kronwall etc) don't overpay for your role players (Hudler, Filpulla, Brunner etc). We won a cup with that philosophy, just look at how little some of the guys on that team were paid (Cleary, Sammy, Drake) plus all the young guys on ELCs or bridge contracts (Flip, Hudler, Mule, Z). The hard part is replacing the core stars without lottery picks.
Which brings is to the Boston model, which may be the way we are leaning. Lots of good players, rather than a core of superstars. Like I said, very hard to get superstars without lottery picks these days.
obey86
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2009
- 8,013
- 1,274
Yep, i've been saying that for a while. I really think that is our best chance for long term success in the next Red Wings era. You don't necessarily need a Zetterberg or Datsyuk IMO...more than one way to build a team.
SirKillalot
Registered User
The thing I find most baffling about this whole issue is that we're talking about Ken Holland. He's known league-wide for being one of the best. He's got a an incredible record of success. He's acknowledged the world over as a top GM.
Except for the fans of his very team that think he needs to be fired.
Except for the fans of his very team that think he needs to be fired.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
The better part being which is what I have always kind of wonder is this crowd has very little in the way of replacements to offer. Explaining who would take over and why that is better than Holland, which was kind of what I was looking for.
I get being disappointed with him, I am not overly happy with what he has done the last two years, but even there we stayed fairly competitive while overhauling the D and now starting the overhaul on the forwards. But seriously are we handing this to Hextall, are people okay with Holland going upstairs (something that is frankly going to happen) or while dreaming this dream of theirs is he drummed out entirely?
Getting very little that way. We know his record, we know some of the signings people don't like or trades that have ticked people off. What are you expecting the new guy to do? Which new guy do you want out there and why is he better?
I have had probably three of my most angry moments in terms of Holland as a Wings fan the last couple years, signing Sammy back, re-signing Cleary and the value returned on Jarnkrok who I think could have been a very attractive piece even at the draft if he wasn't going to suit up here. But once the initial anger wears off after the shock goes through your system it is hard to see what we are going to land that is a better solution right now. So I am still curious what the people that stick with it after the initial hour of anger and still demand change are looking for here, not a whole lot of solutions going on in this thread.
dtones520
Registered User
Yes, those signings have sucked but how have they truly negatively effected us? Other than the Cleary signing which put Nyquist in the AHL to start the year, none of them have. Most of them were made after Detroit missed on some guys they wanted to sign or were turned down as trade partners. Detroit had their sights set on signing Suter and went all out to sign him, had him nearly bagged and last minute he changed his mind and went with Parise. After that he didn't panic and overpay for a guy like Matt Carle, he stayed the course and signed a young and up and comer in Dekeyser. Because of his decisions to not over pay for guys, we are going into this offseason with a ton of money to play with under the cap, if we choose to use it.
Subsequently by doing very little at the deadline over the past 5-6 years he has also kept all of our young talent within the organization, outside of Jarnkrok (who was overrated in my opinion) and that is obviously paying off for us now. Sure it would have been nice to have that first round pick when we traded for Quincey, but who knows who we would have drafted and how he would have panned out.
Point being his decisions have not really left us in that bad of a place considering what we lost on defense over the past 3 years. We made the playoffs last year, a year where we were almost expected to miss, and are in a very good position to make them this year, despite all of our insane injuries. If you look at our lineup, when healthy, we are as good as anyone in the East and if we didn't have injuries at center like we have, we probably trade Jarnkrok for a defensemen instead. We have a great young core ready to play in the NHL with Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Sheahan, Dekeyser, Smith, etc. and we have cap space to make some moves or to wait until next trade deadline and make a splash. Specifically on D. Also, trading Jarnkrok to Nashville could possibly be a precursor to acquiring Weber in a trade from them this summer, if he becomes available. We over paid a bit for Legwand and we may be able to use that in bargaining to get Weber for a bit cheaper than another team may have to pay. Just sayin.
dtones520
Registered User
How do you figure? We have now established a relationship with Poile as a trading partner and have already traded them one young prospect of ours. It may not be anything huge, but it has established us as a trading partner where we never used to be one.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
I am not spinning against him, more while I haven't agreed with him at times, I want a tangible plan if you're going to replace him. Something I don't believe is out there and I am several years away from just saying well lets dump him all together like some around here already that seemingly have no plan whatsoever.
Part of why I willing list those is just because that list of but this guy or that guy is what is strolled out and you will immediately be a Holland apologist rather than looking at the longer issue there. Which is well then what is the plan if you get your wish and he is tossed out on his butt? Don't see a lot of those when it is discussed.
So the just sayin makes me think you kind of missed the point I was trying to drive at.
What we have right now, is almost to a T what Holland said was his plan coming out of the big lockout, he is following a blueprint of sorts even if we are suffering through a rough couple years to our standards.
We are not getting Weber in my opinion, that is almost impossible to imagine.
Part of why I willing list those is just because that list of but this guy or that guy is what is strolled out and you will immediately be a Holland apologist rather than looking at the longer issue there. Which is well then what is the plan if you get your wish and he is tossed out on his butt? Don't see a lot of those when it is discussed.
So the just sayin makes me think you kind of missed the point I was trying to drive at.
What we have right now, is almost to a T what Holland said was his plan coming out of the big lockout, he is following a blueprint of sorts even if we are suffering through a rough couple years to our standards.
We are not getting Weber in my opinion, that is almost impossible to imagine.
You'll find that other teams aren't really looking at him as closely as we are and that he's had most of his reputation built off of the pre-cap era.
Hmm. I overestimated how long the Blues have been a solid team. But I stand by what I said in that the Blues have been the better team since at least 2011.
I don't see why age matters. They still had to lock up their core to long term deals, which they did, just like the Wings did. As long as they're playing at the same level, the age doesn't really matter. It'd be different if the core were on ELC's which really lowers their cost, but that wasn't true of 2013.
Yeah he might espouse it but he's not been following it for a few years now. He may not pay role players a ton of money, but he gets so many of them that we run out of cap space anyway. Just look at all the expendable players we have on this roster. And it was even worse when Eaves hadn't been traded. We waived Eaves, Emmerton, Tootoo, Sammy, and we still have too many forwards. Only injuries are saving us.
The useless veteran depth is costing us a ton of money. Sammy @ 3M, Tootoo @ 1.9M, Bert @ 2M, Cleary @ 1.75M. That's 8.75M just sitting around and that kind of money can sign a pretty damn good free agent. Pretty much anyone in the league. On an ideal roster, those guys aren't even playing. Holland can say one thing and do another. I like what he says. I don't like what he does.
All of them? I'd argue that having over 8.5M in bad signings to players who aren't good enough to play leaves very little room to acquire key players. Whether or not a specific signing keeps a player down matters a bit, but so does the money angle. Every single dollar you spend on a bad contract is a dollar you don't have to sign a player that can actually be useful. And we've spent a lot of bad dollars lately. Also, if this team were healthy, you'd see fewer kids. If Z, D, Weiss, were all healthy right now, do you really think we'd have Jurco and Sheahan on this team? And who would be taking their spots? Bert, Sammy, Cleary.
Pretty much having your cake and eating it too with this comment since a lot of the rationale for letting Jarnkrok go was his supposed longing to flee to Sweden, which Poile apparently never knew about. What happens if those rumors are actually true? I doubt Poile sees Ken very favorably after that. So you have to make a choice. Either Ken has earned himself some good will with Poile by sending him a good player who isn't a flight risk (in which case we got fleeced), or Ken failed to let Poile know about those concerns and got a good deal for a player who wasn't going to stay in NA anyway. I don't know if Holland has an obligation to tell Poile, but it certainly doesn't build any good will between them. I'd be willing to get fleeced on Jarnkrok if it meant Weber in a future deal but that is incredibly wishful thinking.
Nashville loves its defense. Nashville loves Weber. Everything out of that organization has screamed that Weber is not touchable. Plus they just got Seth Jones, I'm sure they want Weber around to help groom the kid. and it would cost a king's ransom to acquire him, even if Poile felt good about Jarnkrok. It's very much a pipe dream.
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PullHard
☂
- Jul 18, 2007
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Because he is basically their only good player. They wouldn't trade him for anything. If we are desperate enough for a playoff appearance that we will buy high at a deadline for $ reasons and PR, they are equally earnest to hang onto the face of their franchise for similar reasons.
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