Holland's Replacement

[FlashyG]

When Holland gets promoted to team President, my bet is Ryan Martin takes over as GM.

It looks like Draper is being groomed to take Martin's job.

I wouldn't bet on either happening in the near future though.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

I wonder if Lidstrom would have any interest? He may not want to leave Sweden, though. He's got many of those personal qualities that Yzerman has that have made him a competent GM. He's patient, measured and controlled. He's got long ties to this organization and I think he's be good at playing a long game as GM. I doubt he'd sell the farm prospects-wise.

I'd love for him to have an opportunity as GM, I'm just not sure he'd want it. Maybe in a few years when his sons are grown up, Holland will step down and Lidstrom will step in?

I've never understood the obsession of sports fans (of all teams, of all sports) regarding employing ex star players in executive roles.

What qualifications does Lidstrom have to be a GM other than he had a great outlet pass and brilliant gap control? How does that help him negotiate contracts or scout players or operate a business to a budget?

At least Yzerman had the sense to do a front office apprenticeship.

As for Burke. No. Just no. Unless you want to see all our skilled players traded for the Clarkson's of this world (and I don't doubt some would).

 

[InjuredChoker]

Brad Treliving, Paul Fenton, Jim Benning, Don Sweeney, Julien BriseBois all good be intriguing options. just throwing some names here. maybe pat verbeek too

not that i think there's going to be change soon.

 

[jaster]

You mean Lidstrom who has absolutely no experience in management of any kind?

Yeah but he's good at hockey and we love him. Holland sucks at managing and we hate him. 2 + 2 = purple, right?

 

[The Zermanator]

I've never understood the obsession of sports fans (of all teams, of all sports) regarding employing ex star players in executive roles.

I'm not suggesting just anyone. Lidstrom's a smart guy and he understands the game very well. And his patience and level-headedness are attributes that would be valuable as a GM. Just as they were valuable when he played.

And Detroit's got a long history of employing ex-players in the front office. Lidstrom's personal qualities would make him an ideal choice for higher positions.

What qualifications does Lidstrom have to be a GM other than he had a great outlet pass and brilliant gap control? How does that help him negotiate contracts or scout players or operate a business to a budget?

Nobody said his 'outlet pass' or 'gap control' are what would make him a good GM, I explained the reasons pretty well in my 1st post so don't act like they're not there. You learn many things off the ice when you play as long as he did at the level he did. I'm not even going to bother looking up all the ex-star player who went on to have good front office careers.

Just off the top of my head:

Yzerman, Roy, Sakic, Clarke, and the list goes on.

At least Yzerman had the sense to do a front office apprenticeship.

Did I say he'd jump in tomorrow? I said in a few years when his sons grow up he might be open to coming back to NA. In a later post I said he may get some experience with the Swedish national team. He's already working for the Wings overseas in some capacity.


I think with some seasoning, Lidstrom could make an excellent GM.

 

[The Zermanator]

I've never understood the obsession of sports fans (of all teams, of all sports) regarding employing ex star players in executive roles.

What qualifications does Lidstrom have to be a GM other than he had a great outlet pass and brilliant gap control? How does that help him negotiate contracts or scout players or operate a business to a budget?

At least Yzerman had the sense to do a front office apprenticeship.

As for Burke. No. Just no. Unless you want to see all our skilled players traded for the Clarkson's of this world (and I don't doubt some would).

Yeah but he's good at hockey and we love him. Holland sucks at managing and we hate him. 2 + 2 = purple, right?

You guys are just making straw man arguments now. When did I say he'd be a good GM because he was a good player?

I said the personal qualities that helped him as a player would also help him as a GM. I'm not just pulling this out of thin air. There are plenty of star players who went on to be good front office guys. Lidstrom has tons of potential.

Personality, wisdom and hockey IQ-wise I'd think he'd be more like an Yzerman, Sakic or Roy than a Garth Snow.

 

[jaster]

You guys are just making straw man arguments now. When did I say he'd be a good GM because he was a good player?

I said the personal qualities that helped him as a player would also help him as a GM. I'm not just pulling this out of thin air. There are plenty of star players who went on to be good front office guys. Lidstrom has tons of potential.

Personality, wisdom and hockey IQ-wise I'd think he'd be more like an Yzerman, Sakic or Roy than a Garth Snow.

You're pulling it out of pretty thin air. I mean, that air is in no way thick, I'm sure of that. I don't think you realize just how much you are assuming in this whole matter in order to justify to yourself that Lidstrom would be a good GM. You, like all of us, lack a tremendous amount of knowledge on the matter of how good a GM Lidstrom would make. Sure, there are some surface qualities that allude to him handling certain aspects of the GM position well. But it's a tiny slice of the pie. None of us know him, personally. None of us know anything about the strategies he would employ, or even how he'd do in a "training" capacity (ala Swedish national team), or if he's good any of the numerous aspects of GMing.

There is so much unknown here that suggesting Lidstrom as our GM is just a small step up from suggesting John Wharton. I mean, John Wharton was around the game for a long time, knows a lot about some aspects of hockey, was calm, level-headed, and thoughtful by all accounts. Why shouldn't we be nominating John Wharton too?

Face it, you love Nick Lidstrom (we all do), and that fandom is the driving force in this suggestion. You filled in a few blanks along the way, but there are still a hundred more.

 

[The Zermanator]

You're pulling it out of pretty thin air. I mean, that air is in no way thick, I'm sure of that. I don't think you realize just how much you are assuming in this whole matter in order to justify to yourself that Lidstrom would be a good GM. You, like all of us, lack a tremendous amount of knowledge on the matter of how good a GM Lidstrom would make. Sure, there are some surface qualities that allude to him handling certain aspects of the GM position well. But it's a tiny slice of the pie. None of us know him, personally. None of us know anything about the strategies he would employ, or even how he'd do in a "training" capacity (ala Swedish national team), or if he's good any of the numerous aspects of GMing.

There is so much unknown here that suggesting Lidstrom as our GM is just a small step up from suggesting John Wharton. I mean, John Wharton was around the game for a long time, knows a lot about some aspects of hockey, was calm, level-headed, and thoughtful by all accounts. Why shouldn't we be nominating John Wharton too?

1. Again, never said he'd step in tomorrow. In a few years after some seasoning.

2. And I disagree, I think you can make some assessments of someone's potential based on some confirmed aspects of their personality. People do that everyday. You can't get a perfect picture, but you never can, no matter how much you know someone.

3. Some of the reasons you've used to dismiss Lidstrom could have easily been used to preclude Yzerman from ever getting a shot.

4. None of us know any of these guys personally. So if we're using that as an argument against a proposed candidate, then there's really no point to this thread.

 

[Vladdy84]

When Holland gets promoted to team President, my bet is Ryan Martin takes over as GM.

It looks like Draper is being groomed to take Martin's job.

I wouldn't bet on either happening in the near future though.

I sure as hell hope not.

 

[FlashyG]

I sure as hell hope not.

Why is that?

Has Draper done anything that makes you think he can't be a good front office guy?

 

[jaster]

1. Again, never said he'd step in tomorrow. In a few years after some seasoning.

Understood. Which helps illustrate my point. There is a ton of unknown here. Him being further away from the position just adds to the unknown.

2. And I disagree, I think you can make some assessments of someone's potential based on some confirmed aspects of their personality. People do that everyday. You can't get a perfect picture, but you never can, no matter how much you know someone.

There's a very wide spectrum between knowing nothing and having a perfect picture. We know very little about Lidstrom's GMing abilities, or potential abilities. Hints. Tidbits. Not nearly enough to consider him a serious candidate, now or projecting 3 years down the line.

3. Some of the reasons you've used to dismiss Lidstrom could have easily been used to preclude Yzerman from ever getting a shot.

I'm not suggesting Lidstrom be dismissed or precluded. I'm saying there isn't enough to seriously nominate him. He's somewhere in between. A guy who played the game well, whom everyone loves, and who has some qualities that would serve him well as a GM should the other hundred necessary qualities (that we have no idea about) fall into place. Again, based on what we do know of Lidstrom, John Wharton is also a candidate. IMO, at best, one can say, "It would be great if Lidstrom were a great potential GM, because we all love him and it's great to imagine him successfully running the Wings one day."

4. None of us know any of these guys personally. So if we're using that as an argument against a proposed candidate, then there's really no point to this thread.

It was meant to illustrate the point that there are a litany of things we don't know about Lidstrom in terms of him being a good GM. Not that it's necessary to know the man personally.

 

[The Zermanator]

There's a very wide spectrum between knowing nothing and having a perfect picture. We know very little about Lidstrom's GMing abilities, or potential abilities. Hints. Tidbits. Not nearly enough to consider him a serious candidate, now or projecting 3 years down the line.


I'm not suggesting Lidstrom be dismissed or precluded. I'm saying there isn't enough to seriously nominate him.

Then if we're taking this matter seriously, let's be serious.

Holland is not going anywhere. He's not going to be fired, shuffled elsewhere or step down because the HFBoards Red Wings forum blew up. He's built up far too much goodwill over the years for that to happen. I think this team would have to become Edmonton for a few years before anyone in a position of power seriously considered firing him. So it's a moot point.

I'd wager it'll be at least 5 years before Holland moves on from GM. By then, Lidstrom will have done something and can be re-assessed. I think he has those qualities, but we'll see. I think Yzerman's going to be in Tampa for a long time so he's not likely.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Sort of a sucky situation. Last summer was the time. Should be Nill's team now.

 

[Heaton]

Sort of a sucky situation. Last summer was the time. Should be Nill's team now.

Do you think Nill would've come in and done things drastically different? For example, not sign Weiss, not sign Cleary etc...? Because I really don't, Nill had been in on decisions like that for years, Holland would've been in on those decisions. It was much easier for Nill to go to another organization on his own with zero ties and make sweeping changes. Some things may have been slightly different, but probably not what people hope/expect.

 

[rx7dryver]

Burke has to be one of the worst GMs of all time. Maybe not quite Feester or Millbury bad but bad.

 

[PullHard]

Burke has to be one of the worst GMs of all time. Maybe not quite Feester or Millbury bad but bad.

He turned Toronto around pretty fast

 

[Flowah]

Do you think Nill would've come in and done things drastically different? For example, not sign Weiss, not sign Cleary etc...? Because I really don't, Nill had been in on decisions like that for years, Holland would've been in on those decisions. It was much easier for Nill to go to another organization on his own with zero ties and make sweeping changes. Some things may have been slightly different, but probably not what people hope/expect.

I hope to god Nill wouldn't have signed Cleary.

Why is that treated like it was inevitable now?

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Do you think Nill would've come in and done things drastically different?/quote]
I don't think it has to be drastically different. But Holland's been the general manager of this team for almost 20 years, and he's been slipping for the last 5. Holland was already in the organization when he took over for Jimmy D and we didn't miss a beat. I think we would have benefited from having Holland move up and having Nill at the helm.

For example, not sign Weiss, not sign Cleary etc...? Because I really don't, Nill had been in on decisions like that for years, Holland would've been in on those decisions.

Cleary might be gone, that was as last second as it gets, but as for Weiss, I don't condemn that signing one bit. It made sense in hindsight. But maybe with Nill at the helm we don't sign Samuelsson to that deal, or Bertuzzi. We can't really say. But as GM of Dallas, Nill's made mostly great moves.

It was much easier for Nill to go to another organization on his own with zero ties and make sweeping changes. Some things may have been slightly different, but probably not what people hope/expect.

Maybe, but I'm not sure the Red Wings need(ed) sweeping changes in the way that Dallas did. It's impossible to say. I'll say one thing about the departure of Nill. I'm worried about our drafting status.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

He turned Toronto around pretty fast

Really? He was there 4 seasons and they didn't make the playoffs once.

He did nothing in Vancouver. They won 1 playoff series in 6 years.

He had one great season in Anaheim (I'll give him credit for some good moves, but a hell of a lot also fell in his lap) then proceeded to completely destroy that team with some terrible moves.

Furthermore, wherever he goes HE becomes the story. He trades on being this gruff "trucculant" personality, and half the Canadian media slobber all over him. I find "boorish" is a far better word to describe him.

 

[PullHard]

Really? He was there 4 seasons and they didn't make the playoffs once.

Okay, but this Toronto team doesn't stop being "his" the moment he leaves it. He acquired nearly every player on their roster. They have one of the very best offensive wingers in the league, won the Bozak sweepstakes, grabbed Lupul and Gardiner for Beauchemin, etc.

I'm not even really a fan of the guy. I am from the GTA and am exposed to TSN/ Canadian sports media everyday. I would almost say I hate him as a person based on what I've seen of him in interviews, etc. But TML had 3rd most ROW last year and are ahead of us in the standings right now. Hard to argue against those results. The team is still super young, too. Wait til JVR and Kadri hit their peaks. Reilly and Gardiner still have a ways to go as well.

 

[SoupGuru]

If Holland was fired, how many minutes would he be unemployed?

 

[InjuredChoker]

i actually started to follow dallas a lot since nill went there. interested to see how it goes.

so far pretty damn good. he has nice tools to work with. i'm very interested to see how he works with that D. red wings have the issue on D too.. i wonder who can fix it faster, though they aren't in completely similar situation.

 

[jaster]

Then if we're taking this matter seriously, let's be serious.

Holland is not going anywhere. He's not going to be fired, shuffled elsewhere or step down because the HFBoards Red Wings forum blew up. He's built up far too much goodwill over the years for that to happen. I think this team would have to become Edmonton for a few years before anyone in a position of power seriously considered firing him. So it's a moot point.

I'd wager it'll be at least 5 years before Holland moves on from GM.

Pretty much agree with all of that.

By then, Lidstrom will have done something and can be re-assessed. I think he has those qualities, but we'll see. I think Yzerman's going to be in Tampa for a long time so he's not likely.

We'll see. Do we know if Lidstrom even has any interest in pursuing a GM position? If not, he may not do anything that is worth re-assessing. But hey, I'd agree, it'd be awesome if Lidstrom does want to be a GM and does have all the necessary qualities to be a great one.

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

Hey, Garth Snow might be available soon

This thread really puts the whole "fire Holland" insanity in perspective. There's no one (with the exception of Stevie) that's been mentioned here that I'd want running this team.

 

[PullHard]

Hey, Garth Snow might be available soon

This thread really puts the whole "fire Holland" insanity in perspective. There's no one (with the exception of Stevie) that's been mentioned here that I'd want running this team.

We'll never know what Snow is capable of until he leaves NYI. Wang pulls the strings big time.