Holland's Replacement

[Shadywing19]

If holland was fired. Everyone in the hockey world would be severely puzzled by it, and no doubt in my mind his phone would be ringing with Brian Burke on the other end with a gm position in Calgary. Seriously these threads are stupid. All cups, trades, signings etc aside. We've iced a competitive team for 20+ years in a ROW. In my history of watching this team which is 20+ years. This team may have not necessarily been a "favorite" to win the cup. But every year the have at least had a chance to make a run in the playoffs. Literally no other fan of any other team can say that. None.

These fire holland threads are so Pejorative Slured. Some of you really don't know how lucky uve been to not have to go through some of the suck years teams like Chi. Pitt. Stl. To name a feW. Have he to go through just to ice a competitive team.

Ugh.
Go wings !

 

[VladTheImpaler]

Holland will not be stepping down anytime soon but when he does, I imagine his successor will be someone already in the organization or someone with deep ties to the Wings. It is just the Ilitch family and Jimmy D's style. If we are going to play devil's advocate though, I would take a good hard look at someone high up within the Blackhawks or Bruins front offices.

 

[ThirdManIn]

Yes, those signings have sucked but how have they truly negatively effected us? Other than the Cleary signing which put Nyquist in the AHL to start the year, none of them have. Most of them were made after Detroit missed on some guys they wanted to sign or were turned down as trade partners. Detroit had their sights set on signing Suter and went all out to sign him, had him nearly bagged and last minute he changed his mind and went with Parise. After that he didn't panic and overpay for a guy like Matt Carle, he stayed the course and signed a young and up and comer in Dekeyser. Because of his decisions to not over pay for guys, we are going into this offseason with a ton of money to play with under the cap, if we choose to use it.

Subsequently by doing very little at the deadline over the past 5-6 years he has also kept all of our young talent within the organization, outside of Jarnkrok (who was overrated in my opinion) and that is obviously paying off for us now. Sure it would have been nice to have that first round pick when we traded for Quincey, but who knows who we would have drafted and how he would have panned out.

Point being his decisions have not really left us in that bad of a place considering what we lost on defense over the past 3 years. We made the playoffs last year, a year where we were almost expected to miss, and are in a very good position to make them this year, despite all of our insane injuries. If you look at our lineup, when healthy, we are as good as anyone in the East and if we didn't have injuries at center like we have, we probably trade Jarnkrok for a defensemen instead. We have a great young core ready to play in the NHL with Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Sheahan, Dekeyser, Smith, etc. and we have cap space to make some moves or to wait until next trade deadline and make a splash. Specifically on D. Also, trading Jarnkrok to Nashville could possibly be a precursor to acquiring Weber in a trade from them this summer, if he becomes available. We over paid a bit for Legwand and we may be able to use that in bargaining to get Weber for a bit cheaper than another team may have to pay. Just sayin.

I'm not so sure Suter changed his mind at the last minute. From everything we heard leading up to and immediately after Suter's signing in Minnesota, he was giving Poile every indication that he would allow Nashville to match any offer given. Yet he stuck to what a lot of people had already speculated when he signed with Minnesota. His heart was set with the Wild. He wanted to be able to be near his family and his wife's family. I honestly don't think any other team had a realistic shot, Detroit and Nashville included.

And there is no way the Jarnkrok for Legwand deal is a precursor to a Weber to Detroit deal. First of all, Detroit doesn't really have much in the way of pieces to entice Nashville. Second, that would be an odd plan, wouldn't it? Match a $110m offer sheet that is front loaded with the first four years at $14m and the next two at $12m in the hopes that eventually Poile can make a deal with Holland that will grease the rails for a Weber move? I highly doubt the owners would be willing to gamble on such an expensive idea, and I doubt Poile looked at Detroit's assets and thought, "Yeah this will be worth it."

Sorry, but I just don't see it. Not only has Poile openly said time and time again that Weber is going no where, but he has also trades away his only other veteran blueliner over the age of 25 (Klein) recently. The top four on the blueline is set. This trade isn't going to change that. Even if something changes over the next few months and Poile decides to talk with Holland about sending Weber to Detroit, Jarnkrok, a 2nd/3rd and Eaves for Legwand isn't going to make #6 any cheaper. If Poile decided to operate like that he would be fired and probably tarred and feathered.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

ThirdManIn: There was at least one "insider" who had told this board that it was 100% a done deal with Suter right up until Suter rejected the Wings offer and signed with Minnesota shortly after.

Needless to say, we weren't too happy with his prediction once the deal was made:

 

[ThirdManIn]

The Suter thing was a cluster **** for every team not named the Minnesota Wild. Nashville thought up until he inked his contract that he would give them the right of first refusal. Apparently Detroit thought they had him (if the "insider" is really an insider), and I know they gave him a hard pitch. Didn't Ilitch and Holland fly to meet with Suter at his home the day before he signed with Minnesota?

At any rate, I guess if an outsider's opinion is welcome and if I'm going to stay on topic, my two cents is that the inability to land Suter is definitely not something that should reflect poorly on Holland. Honestly, I don't think the Legwand deal should either. Yes, we got more than I expected, but Jarnkrok is far from a proven asset. I heard Leggy had a pretty good game last night

 

[ArGarBarGar]

The Suter thing was a cluster **** for every team not named the Minnesota Wild. Nashville thought up until he inked his contract that he would give them the right of first refusal. Apparently Detroit thought they had him (if the "insider" is really an insider), and I know they gave him a hard pitch. Didn't Ilitch and Holland fly to meet with Suter at his home the day before he signed with Minnesota?

At any rate, I guess if an outsider's opinion is welcome and if I'm going to stay on topic, my two cents is that the inability to land Suter is definitely not something that should reflect poorly on Holland. Honestly, I don't think the Legwand deal should either. Yes, we got more than I expected, but Jarnkrok is far from a proven asset. I heard Leggy had a pretty good game last night

I can understand that, but the greater issue to us Wings fans is the fact that Holland relied on signing the most sought after defenseman in free agency since Rafalski (I think?) to improve a weak defensive unit. This frustration is multiplied when you see Holland trade one of our better C prospects for an aging center with ties to Michigan instead of a defenseman which is our biggest long-term need.

I think Legwand has absolutely done a great job so far (last game he was a huge asset to Franzen and Nyquist), but I think the timing is the reason the deal has gotten people so worked up about Holland's decision making. Especially considering we will have so much money tied up in centers next year I'm not sure how we are supposed to manage the lines effectively.

 

[ThirdManIn]

I'm not sure that it really helps, but Legwand can play wing if Detroit is intent on re-signing him. He's actually looked very good on the wing in the past. It allows him to focus less on the defensive aspect of the game and more on offense. When he does that he actually has some pretty good skill.

I can see that, though. Poile did the same thing kind of. He put all of his eggs in the Suter/Parise basket, and when he landed neither of them he really didn't do anything. The team sucked the entire year. Then, with that money he had hoped to spend on those two players he turned around and signed Cullen, Nyquist, Stalberg and Hendricks.

Let's appease both fan bases. Trade GMs. They both will have a year or two in their new towns before people start hating them again

 

[ScottyBowman]

I see Yzerman coming back when the time comes

 

[PullHard]

Re: Suter. In hindsight his options seemed to be either 1) stay in Nashville and continue to be 1/2 of the best pairing in hockey, 2) sign in Minnesota because of personal ties/ history/ his heart wanted to be there with friends and family or 3) be a big UFA splash, and it seemed to us, based on reports of Holland and co. talking to him, that we were one of the highest on that list. But with everything we were able to read and understand at that time, it seemed like the real decision was either continuing his career with Nashville or going to Minnesota for personal reasons. Detroit seemed to be leading in the "teams I don't really want to go to" category.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Get feelers out for Yzerman. If he wants to come back to Detroit, give him the job.

Promote Martin. His age doesn't scare me.

Holland has turned into a bad joke.

 

[dtones520]

I'm not so sure Suter changed his mind at the last minute. From everything we heard leading up to and immediately after Suter's signing in Minnesota, he was giving Poile every indication that he would allow Nashville to match any offer given. Yet he stuck to what a lot of people had already speculated when he signed with Minnesota. His heart was set with the Wild. He wanted to be able to be near his family and his wife's family. I honestly don't think any other team had a realistic shot, Detroit and Nashville included.

And there is no way the Jarnkrok for Legwand deal is a precursor to a Weber to Detroit deal. First of all, Detroit doesn't really have much in the way of pieces to entice Nashville. Second, that would be an odd plan, wouldn't it? Match a $110m offer sheet that is front loaded with the first four years at $14m and the next two at $12m in the hopes that eventually Poile can make a deal with Holland that will grease the rails for a Weber move? I highly doubt the owners would be willing to gamble on such an expensive idea, and I doubt Poile looked at Detroit's assets and thought, "Yeah this will be worth it."

Sorry, but I just don't see it. Not only has Poile openly said time and time again that Weber is going no where, but he has also trades away his only other veteran blueliner over the age of 25 (Klein) recently. The top four on the blueline is set. This trade isn't going to change that. Even if something changes over the next few months and Poile decides to talk with Holland about sending Weber to Detroit, Jarnkrok, a 2nd/3rd and Eaves for Legwand isn't going to make #6 any cheaper. If Poile decided to operate like that he would be fired and probably tarred and feathered.

Sorry, I think I misexplained my post about Weber a little bit. I wasn't trying to say that the Jarnkrok/Legwand trade was a part of no bigger plan to trade for Weber in the summer. I moreso meant that Poile and Holland have now worked out a deal and a line of communication that wasn't there before, with us being in the same division. So if Weber becomes available, Poile knows that Holland is a guy willing to deal and give a fair or bloated offer for a guy who is available.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Yzerman's extremely loyal, he's not leaving Tampa unless he's fired.

 

[icKx]

The thing I find most baffling about this whole issue is that we're talking about Ken Holland. He's known league-wide for being one of the best. He's got a an incredible record of success. He's acknowledged the world over as a top GM.

Except for the fans of his very team that think he needs to be fired.

He does indeed have an incredible record, which is why he got a free pass from 2009 to present.

But we've now endured three years of bad signings, extensions to worthless vets, buried kids and free-agency strikeouts.

At a certain point you can't claim to be one of the best if the record doesn't reflect it.

Sports is a results-oriented business. Yeah, it is 'what have you done for me lately'. Produce or get out.

 

[Flowah]

I'm not sure that it really helps, but Legwand can play wing if Detroit is intent on re-signing him. He's actually looked very good on the wing in the past. It allows him to focus less on the defensive aspect of the game and more on offense. When he does that he actually has some pretty good skill.

I've liked what I've seen when Detroit was in the central and from his 2 games here.

But we have more than enough top9 forwards without him. Unless we forego Alfie or find someone who wants Weiss, it's going to lead to either a kid getting buried again.

I doubt Weiss gets traded. Alfie has already said he'd like to come back for another year *and* stay in Detroit. I have to think Holland pulls the trigger on that pretty quick as well. So what, we'd roll with Z, D, Franzen, Nyquist, Jurco, Tatar, Sheahan, Weiss, Alfie, Legwand? That's 10 for top9 spots, not even counting Abby who has shown much improvement and has earned a top9 spot in my eyes if there's room.

It's not so much a matter of wing vs. center as it is "we have too many players." Also, if Pulkkinen keeps up this pace and doesn't get a real look next year I'll be pretty disappointed.

 

[Sadekuuro]

Also, if Pulkkinen keeps up this pace and doesn't get a real look next year I'll be pretty disappointed.

With the roster logjam, this is basically a foregone conclusion already.

 

[Flowah]

With the roster logjam, this is basically a foregone conclusion already.

Sadly. Even though he has a skillset that we need even now, is cheap, and has been proving himself quite nicely in Grand Rapids.

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

I'm not sure Holland should be fired as he's created a good prospect pool & a good team but it may be time for their to be a new voice in the room. Though ideas can change & with the cap in place the way the team was run had to change but I think Holland has become far to complacent in recent years and afraid of change.

I think if we do hire someone it'll be someone from inside the organization but I'd really like to get someone from outside of it. That person will have a fresh take and wouldn't be afraid of making some moves.

 

[WhalerBlue]

If Holland ever steps down or gets fired, I would like to get his job. I obviously couldn't mess up that job with the amount of knowledge I would have at my fingertips. I would hire all of the people in this thread as advisers and then we know for sure that we would never sign a bad contract, make a bad draft selection or botch a trade deadline deal. How about it, are you with me?

 

[BinCookin]

If Holland ever steps down or gets fired, I would like to get his job. I obviously couldn't mess up that job with the amount of knowledge I would have at my fingertips. I would hire all of the people in this thread as advisers and then we know for sure that we would never sign a bad contract, make a bad draft selection or botch a trade deadline deal. How about it, are you with me?

I think patience is something most fans here would lack.


Kindl and Smith would both be gone right now.
Franzen (at near a PPG pace right now) would be bought out due to "a bad contract" -- Which i see as a great contract… who cares if he is signed for life.
Most fans HERE (hockey future) would be playing our entire team of 24-25 year olds and we would probably be dead last in the league.

There is a balance to be had.



People love to complain with 20/20 Hindsight.

There are a lot of really dumb things being said on this board as a reason Holland has been so bad.

1) First and foremost EXPECTATION of home run deals that don't trade away anyone good, but acquire the best players in hockey… You know who makes bold moves? Philly.

2) "NOT" signing Player X. Only DRW spoiled fans can get upset about NOT signing someone. Implying that If we had tried… they would be signed. Its the very basis of a straw argument. Who is to say WHY players were not signed except that PLAYER specifically. "Not signing Hossa/Suter/Weber" Blah Blah Blah; As a reason to hate Holland is just BUNK.

3) Signing Player X was "Easy". LOL really.. Debunking all the signings we do make because they were EASY. "Cause the player was totally going to pick Detroit" Right? Its the same as #2. Only in this case the argument is "ANY GM" could have signed this guy or that. How about any GM actions are all part of a plan. You might not like the plan, but not signing certain players leaves room to sign others.

4) Massive exaggeration on trades that did occur that need to result in firing:

Ex. 1st Round pick for Kyle Quincey. Quincey is Young, 20+ Min defence man. I would call this deal 60% loss / 40% win since Quincey has played fairly poorly for us overall. But Fireable? Please.

Ex. Signing of many Vets: Sammy/Tootoo/Bert/Eaves/Miller/Cleary. I think again the issue here is patience. I told people at the start of this year that many of these players will lose their jobs to kids. It has been a mix of injuries and Bad play that has resulted in almost ALL of them losing their jobs to kids. This is Holland testing youth in an extremely slow manner which makes so many here upset… but basically what everyone wanted is happening. Just 40 games slower than they would like.

The only player above who might keep his job is Miller. This is good news
Nyquist/Tatar/Jurco/Sheahan… Are all likely NHL'ers now. This is good news.

Its possible that Sheahan (who i thought was AHL forever, no chance of being an NHL player) has simply played Jarnkrok right out the door. I would like a D-man for Jarnkrok.

Honestly I can disagree with some of Hollands moves, but I can always say, we are expected to make the playoffs. And I do not know any other fan who can say this.

 

[JackieTreehorn]

The better part being which is what I have always kind of wonder is this crowd has very little in the way of replacements to offer. Explaining who would take over and why that is better than Holland, which was kind of what I was looking for.

Umm. We had 2 in house candidates that were not great potential replacements, they were slam dunks. That is where the angst comes from imo. I remember posting about this when Holland started to slip and said either could replace him. I remember Holland supporters ridiculing people suggesting Yzerman as a potential successor to the infalliable Holland because he has no experience

Holland waited out the situation and now has no competition, and now even all but the most negative Holland folks realize he is the best option for the time being or will be here for the forseeable future.