HOH Top Centers - Round 2 Voting Results

[DaveG]

Well, I'm glad to see how clean the top 4 was. I do feel like a bit of a boob being the only one to vote for Clarke at 5th, but what can you do.

It's a defensible position to take though, especially depending on how much one values elite defensive play. It's the reason my voting for the next round is going to look so... odd compared to a lot of people.

 

[tony d]

My exact top 3 but I didn't have Morenz there, oh well what can you do? Also Lemieux at #5? Wondering what the justification is for that.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

It's a defensible position to take though, especially depending on how much one values elite defensive play. It's the reason my voting for the next round is going to look so... odd compared to a lot of people.

The defensive side certainly makes for the most interesting wrinkles. It's funny, because during the '80s when I was first getting serious into hockey even the great "2-way" players were often "depth" behind players who were truly great enough offensively to carry teams. By the time the late '90s/millenium roll around, though, a developed defensive game is seen as a distinct positive/bonus as opposed to "compensation" for "short-comings" in more of a secondary/support role.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Someone having Lemieux on 5th reflects badly on us a group, I'm afraid.

Perhaps i should just chuckle and let this pass, but this type of thinking and commentary is what causes many to not participate in these exercise.

I had Mario 5th and I'm a huge career and 2 way advocate, placing him 5th is justifiable if you disagree fine but skip the elitism please, it's unwarranted IMO.

 

[MXD]

Perhaps i should just chuckle and let this pass, but this type of thinking and commentary is what causes many to not participate in these exercise.

I had Mario 5th and I'm a huge career and 2 way advocate, placing him 5th is justifiable if you disagree fine but skip the elitism please, it's unwarranted IMO.

It's not elitism. It's mostly awareness that the wheel already exists.

I'm also not the only one who thinks this way, judging by the replies.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Perhaps i should just chuckle and let this pass, but this type of thinking and commentary is what causes many to not participate in these exercise.

I had Mario 5th and I'm a huge career and 2 way advocate, placing him 5th is justifiable if you disagree fine but skip the elitism please, it's unwarranted IMO.

Out of curiosity, when did you become such an advocate for 2-way play?

I remember that during the defenseman project, you were the biggest advocate for Phil Housley and Sergei Zubov.

 

[Hardyvan123]

It's not elitism. It's mostly awareness that the wheel already exists.

I'm also not the only one who thinks this way, judging by the replies.

I'm aware of the prevailing views and no doubt alot of that is based on peak and or prime and his defensive shortcomming were overlloed or excused and that's fine.

But to call a different view emberassing smacks of elitism even if it wasn't intended that how many other s see it and they move on from the history section becuase of it.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Out of curiosity, when did you become such an advocate for 2-way play?

I remember that during the defenseman project, you were the biggest advocate for Phil Housley and Sergei Zubov.

Sure down in the 55-60 range not all players are as wel rounded. Zubov had a very good case, even if others didn't agree.

For top 5 at any postion , being lousy defsinvely and having such a short career sometimes is the difference between 2nd and 5th right?

Or maybe not if people are more focused on peak and prime versus career, either way to call a dissenting view emberassing is unfortanate at best.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Well, I'm glad to see how clean the top 4 was. I do feel like a bit of a boob being the only one to vote for Clarke at 5th, but what can you do.

Consider Gretzky is the only center with more Hart Trophy wins than Clarke. Not an outrageous vote.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm aware of the prevailing views and no doubt alot of that is based on peak and or prime and his defensive shortcomming were overlloed or excused and that's fine.

But to call a different view emberassing smacks of elitism even if it wasn't intended that how many other s see it and they move on from the history section becuase of it.

I would also like to add that, as a general rule in this project, we are operating under the universal assumption that all voters are well-intentioned, literate, and have formed their opinions through serious contemplation of the subject material.

There will be disagreements and that's fine, but an underlying level of respect for each other's perspectives will be expected -- and enforced if necessary.

Thank you for understanding that respect for dissenting viewpoints is essential to what we are trying to accomplish with the Top-x projects, as well as to a healthy community here on the History board.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 1 Results Corrected

I double checked the Vote 1 results and found a discrepancy. I then triple checked the results to be sure. The table has been updated, and now has the correct results.

Please note that had the top 5 been even remotely close to one another I would have double checked before posting.

In order to help me avoid these errors in the future it would make things a lot easier if you guys number your rankings.


Apologies for the error

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 2 - Lists received from 20 out of 23 possible voters

Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | None | Total Stan Mikita | 16 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 153
Mark Messier | 1 | 6 | 5 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 109
Bobby Clarke | 0 | 5 | 3 | 5 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 99
Frank Nighbor | 2 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 83
Phil Esposito | 1 | 1 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 75
Joe Sakic | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 7 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 70
Bryan Trottier | 0 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 5 | 1 | 5 | 1 | 66
Cyclone Taylor | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 34
Steve Yzerman | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 11 | 20
Newsy Lalonde | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 4 | 14 | 11

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Mikita and Clarke were the only players that made everyone's top 8

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

3 people thought Phil Eaposito's 5 Art Rosses weren't worth their top 8?

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

3 people thought Phil Esposito's 5 Art Rosses weren't worth their top 8?

The perception of Esposito as Orr's élevée lives. It's the biggest factor in his assessment... but I've also seen it cited that expansion aided his scoring. [I've said it, myself.] (I.e.: who did he score on?) Unfortunately, I was remiss in not using a parallel line of reasoning re: Clarke's defensive prowess. (I.e.: who did he contain?)

Still, Messier has now nosed ahead of Clarke... for the first time since this board has undertaken such projects- so... 'gather-ye-rosebuds-while-ye-may,' I suppose.

It would take a lot more higher math than I have time to attempt to be able to confidently rate Esposito. I'd taken the lazy man's way out and judged that an Esposito in one hand and a Clarke in the other hand felt like they weighed the same... and from there, I employed the [post=73804637]shed-denizen[/post] tiebreak to give the edge to Esposito.

In the end, I was persuaded to put Mikita in my top-8 (although at the very back end). Just too much of a regular-season beast to ignore any longer.

So, three of the four that I grouped 5-8 are moving on- and we move on to round out the top-dozen...

 

[VanIslander]

3 people thought Phil Eaposito's 5 Art Rosses weren't worth their top 8?

Plus his clutch play in the playoffs and dominance in the '72 Summit Series. My jaw dropped when I saw that '3'. i think we need to listen to their reasoning next round.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Espo being left out and the ever widening gap between Sakic and Yzerman are the two things that stand out like a sore thumb the most to me.

Still pumping Trottier but it looks like people have a wide range of opinion on him.

Interesting as well to see how the constant barrage of Frank Nighbor love is continuing to raise his stock around here.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I'm quite surprised by the lack of Espo love. I thought I was being harsh on him having him at 4th. I thought Nighbor over Clarke was established, turns out people have quite the range of opinions on Nighbor.

I'm less hot on Messier than pretty much anyone, but even I had him in my top 8. Curious the reasoning for excluding him.

 

[VanIslander]

Interesting as well to see how the constant barrage of Frank Nighbor love is continuing to raise his stock around here.

The votes wee 11-9 to induct him this round (top-4) and I was part of the 9.

 

[sr edler]

Espo being left out and the ever widening gap between Sakic and Yzerman are the two things that stand out like a sore thumb the most to me.

Yeah, a bit surprised. Esposito isn't a particular favorite of mine but I didn't leave him off my list last round. And, although I voted Sakic in front of Yzerman, I can't see the big gap between the two. Yzerman's four years older and played more against the primes of Gretzky & Lemieux. I bet there's a big chance Keenan leaves an early Sakic off those Canada Cup teams as well. Early Sakic was no defensive phenom.

I'm less hot on Messier than pretty much anyone, but even I had him in my top 8. Curious the reasoning for excluding him.

Yeah, that was me. What can I say except that it's a competitive environment. For one I think his Hart record, as many loves to point to, is built too much on reputation. He definitely deserved it in 1990, even though it was close with Bourque, but then it became too much of that leadership myth for me to like it. In 1992 he still had a great season but a lot of players had and I don't think he was more valuable to his team than Brian Leetch, who was five points behind him on defense. 93 & 94 seasons showed that. It's the same rationale that makes me think Datsyuk isn't three times better defensively than Henrik Zetterberg because he have three Selke's and Z have zero. My eyes sees something else. I don't like to blindly count awards because quite a few awards are voted on by journalist's who doesn't even follow the game that closely and gets caught up in hype. He also played on some ridiculous teams in the 80s that gave him a lot of opportunities other players didn't have. Also not a fan of that playing style.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Still pumping Trottier but it looks like people have a wide range of opinion on him.

And bless your heart for that.

I think I see a pattern here- if one of your teammates has a serviceable case for being called better than you are, you get downgraded...

... unless you're Mikita.

 

[tony d]

Color me surprised that Messier and Nighbor made it to the next round and not Esposito (Who I ranked #3) and Trottier (who I ranked at #2)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Color me surprised that Messier and Nighbor made it to the next round and not Esposito (Who I ranked #3) and Trottier (who I ranked at #2)

I would have been surprised if Trottier finished ahead of Messier.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I've seen a lot of references to the gap between Sakic and Yzerman, as if it suggests a big weakness in our final product. I disagree. These lists -- all three of them we've done so far -- involve a lot of hair-splitting between strong candidates in each round. Even two players who are virtually tied with one another in their own generation can end up separated by several ranks when you mix them in with the entirety of hockey history. I don't think we should take any special pains to guarantee that these two players end up as neighbors on the final list.

 

[seventieslord]

Esposito looks like a solid bet to finish 9th, and some of you are complaining?