HOH Top Centers - Round 2 Voting Results

[jigglysquishy]

Esposito looks like a solid bet to finish 9th, and some of you are complaining?

He's our first player to drop. The first five matched up exactly to the top players project. Granted, in that project he, Clarke and Moose were neck and neck, but still.

He's a very polarizing player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He's our first player to drop. The first five matched up exactly to the top players project. Granted, in that project he, Clarke and Moose were neck and neck, but still.

He's a very polarizing player.

To be fair, on the last top 70 list, Esposito, Clarke, and Messier all finished back to back (spots 20-22), so the order of them was certainly volatile. Seems this group of voters is more forgiving of Messier's later Canucks years than the group who did the lists in 2008 and 2009. Add in that we knew very little about Nighbor back then.

That said, I don't understand the "no" votes for Espo, particularly the rationale for Yzerman or Lalonde over Espo. Certainly, nobody posted anything of such in the discussion thread. But just because I don't understand it, doesn't mean there isn't a case somewhere. Edit: Like, as much as I disagree with it, I even understand the outlier low vote for Messier.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Esposito looks like a solid bet to finish 9th, and some of you are complaining?

Yep.

Consider only two other centers dominated offensively to the degree Espo did and they ranked 1 & 2, I'd say a 9th place finish deserves much complaint.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Espo being left out and the ever widening gap between Sakic and Yzerman are the two things that stand out like a sore thumb the most to me.

Still pumping Trottier but it looks like people have a wide range of opinion on him.

Interesting as well to see how the constant barrage of Frank Nighbor love is continuing to raise his stock around here.

Clearly the Nighbor campaign led directly to the Esposito fall.

 

[seventieslord]

If Sakic is ahead of Esposito, and everyone seems to agree he and Yzerman are so close, then why is Yzerman over Esposito so hard to understand?

I mean, we're trying to imagine all these players in identical team situations and judge them based on their demonstrated ability, right? The idea that Esposito's gaudy scoring numbers had an awful lot to do with Orr is not a new one, or a flawed one.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If Sakic is ahead of Esposito, and everyone seems to agree he and Yzerman are so close, then why is Yzerman over Esposito so hard to understand?

I mean, we're trying to imagine all these players in identical team situations and judge them based on their demonstrated ability, right? The idea that Esposito's gaudy scoring numbers had an awful lot to do with Orr is not a new one, or a flawed one.

The argument for Sakic over Esposito is longevity as an elite player, an advantage Sakic also has over Yzerman. Personally, I don't think Sakic and Yzerman are that close once you take this into account. But that might be just me.

 

[thom]

Here are Scotty Bowmans top 10 centermen.1.Mario Lemieux 2.WayneGretzy 3.Howie Morenz 4.Jean Belevieu 5.Dave Keon 6.Henri Richard 7.Mark Messier 8.Sidny Crosby 8.Steve Yzerman 9.Norm Ulman 10.Alex Dalvecchio.You see guys and girls there is more to a player than goals and assists.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Here are Scotty Bowmans top 10 centermen.1.Mario Lemieux 2.WayneGretzy 3.Howie Morenz 4.Jean Belevieu 5.Dave Keon 6.Henri Richard 7.Mark Messier 8.Sidny Crosby 8.Steve Yzerman 9.Norm Ulman 10.Alex Dalvecchio.You see guys and girls there is more to a player than goals and assists.

Then why would Lemieux and Gretzky be 1 & 2?

 

[Hardyvan123]

I would have been surprised if Trottier finished ahead of Messier.

Myself as well, as much as I personally hate the Moose and that ego of his.

That being said is there any way Bryan isn't in the next group of four here?

Sakic as well?

Leaning towards Taylor and Yzerman for the other 2 spots in the top 4 but man it's getting closer and closer now between the candidates.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I've seen a lot of references to the gap between Sakic and Yzerman, as if it suggests a big weakness in our final product. I disagree. These lists -- all three of them we've done so far -- involve a lot of hair-splitting between strong candidates in each round. Even two players who are virtually tied with one another in their own generation can end up separated by several ranks when you mix them in with the entirety of hockey history. I don't think we should take any special pains to guarantee that these two players end up as neighbors on the final list.

I agree with this, and I'm one of the guys that has Steve and Joe really close but they could finish 5 spots apart, on some lists, but I only actually have 2 or 3 guys on the same tier as Steve and it's hard to weigh all of the different factors here as well. sometimes it depends on what my mood on a certain day favours.

 

[VanIslander]

Here are Scotty Bowmans top 10 centermen.1.Mario Lemieux 2.WayneGretzy 3.Howie Morenz 4.Jean Belevieu 5.Dave Keon 6.Henri Richard 7.Mark Messier 8.Sidny Crosby 8.Steve Yzerman 9.Norm Ulman 10.Alex Dalvecchio.You see guys and girls there is more to a player than goals and assists.

I see Yzerman on Bowman's list... I don't see Sakic.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I see Yzerman on Bowman's list... I don't see Sakic.

Gee, I wonder why.

 

[VanIslander]

Gee, I wonder why.

So that's why Mario is listed number one?

So, he's simply biased and throw out whatever he says?

 

[BraveCanadian]

So that's why Mario is listed number one?

So, he's simply biased and throw out whatever he says?

Those lists were all terrible. Including Bowman's.

And I'm usually the first one to say that Scotty Bowman should know more about hockey than we do around here.

 

[unknown33]

Here are Scotty Bowmans top 10 centermen.1.Mario Lemieux 2.WayneGretzy 3.Howie Morenz 4.Jean Belevieu 5.Dave Keon 6.Henri Richard 7.Mark Messier 8.Sidny Crosby 8.Steve Yzerman 9.Norm Ulman 10.Alex Dalvecchio.You see guys and girls there is more to a player than goals and assists.

Didn't you post Bowman's list in the last two project too and in several other threads?

 

[Sentinel]

Bowman's list is quite a headscratcher. Crosby over Yzerman??

 

[Plural]

Bowman's list is quite a headscratcher. Crosby over Yzerman??

Don't take it too seriously. It's not very good list. Although, I wouldn't be too surprised to see Crosby ranked ahead of Yzerman when it's all said and done.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Here are Scotty Bowmans top 10 centermen.1.Mario Lemieux 2.WayneGretzy 3.Howie Morenz 4.Jean Belevieu 5.Dave Keon 6.Henri Richard 7.Mark Messier 8.Sidny Crosby 8.Steve Yzerman 9.Norm Ulman 10.Alex Dalvecchio.You see guys and girls there is more to a player than goals and assists.

Sorry but if anyone had Bryan Trottier in the 60's (overall) along with that above list they would be laughed out of this section faster than the efforts to shoot down my arguments.

The Scotty Bowman brand seems to go a long way here.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So that's why Mario is listed number one?

Well, that's one way of looking at it. He coached Mario and not Gretzky. He coached Yzerman and not Sakic.

At other positions, he coached Steve Shutt who he listed ahead of Trottier. He coached JC Tremblay and listed him ahead of Pierre Pilote. He was a long running member of the Red Wings organization, and listed Howe 3 spots over Gretzky. He has been in the Blackhawks organization for the past 5 years and listed Toews immediately after George Armstrong and Bryan Trottier.

So yeah, I'd say there certainly appears to be a hint of bias in his rankings.

So, he's simply biased and throw out whatever he says?

As far as comparing his list to one which is intended to be objective and based on research? Absolutely.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 3

Vote 3 - Lists received from 20 out of 23 possible voters

Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | None | Total Phil Esposito | 7 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 130
Joe Sakic | 7 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 129
Bryan Trottier | 4 | 5 | 7 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 122
Cyclone Taylor | 2 | 2 | 4 | 7 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 103
Steve Yzerman | 0 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 8 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 84
Newsy Lalonde | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 10 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 62
Milt Schmidt | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 9 | 4 | 3 | 37
Syl Apps | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 8 | 6 | 28
Marcel Dionne | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 4 | 3 | 10 | 25

 

[sr edler]

Wow, that was close on Esposito & Sakic.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Esposito,Sakic,Trottier

Interesting vote featuring Esposito, Sakic and Trottier from the standpoint of reflecting workload and responsibility.

 

[MXD]

Taylor over Lalonde appears very Toronto-centric.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Wow, that was close on Esposito & Sakic.

Essentially a tie. Any one of 8 voters could have changed the result by swapping their 2/3 order.

 

[sr edler]

Taylor over Lalonde appears very Toronto-centric.

Why? You think us voters are bitter Lalonde choose Montreal over Toronto? No one left him off the ballot. For all you Newsy fans though I'll give you some nice high resolution pics of him with the Vancouver Lacrosse Club. Here and here. Here and here you see Lalonde & Taylor on the same Vancouver Lacrosse team. On that team is also player and future PCHA & NHL referee Mickey Ion, trainer and future Seattle, Portland & Chicago coach Pete Muldoon and hockey player Sibby Nichols.