HOH Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All-Time

[seventieslord]

I was lambasted for daring to put Marty Walsh 4th line center and your only comment was to pile on.

What in blue blazes are you talking about?

 

[VanIslander]

It was over a decade ago. I guess i sound petty. I was just hurt. Ugh. It was between the time i bought 100+ hockey history books from you and the time you won the ATD.

 

[rmartin65]

I don't agree with the ranking, but i didn't participate this spring/summer as i changed jobs, changed homes, got COVID again, simply survived.

You know how these projects work; probably everyone disagrees with at least one ranking, but it is a good sense of the overall feeling towards these players. Due to the amount of new information, stats, and discussion surrounding these players, I think this is one project that, despite all the players having lon-since retired, revisiting again in a couple years may prove interesting.

Hopefully you'll be able to participate in that one, but in the meanwhile, there is nothing preventing you from debating the players here. I know there are several members who would be more than happy to continue discussing the era (I'm one of them!).

Moose Johnson & Harvey Pulford were better than that, the former for such a long time relative to era and the latter from the first Stanley Cup playoff game loss in the 1890s where he was heralded as the defensive hero who kept the game close until the winning score late. 70slord is probably glad i haven't argued for Harry Hyland or Marty Walsh, both of whom i consistently have trotted out arguments for, to his chagrin.

I believe the first Stanley Cup playoff game was on 17 March 1894, with Montreal HC defeating the Montreal Victorias 3-2. Billy Barlow and Archie Hodgson were the main standouts, if I'm remembering correctly. Pulford played with Ottawa HC in Ottawa's 3-1 loss to Montreal HC on 22 March 1894. The Stanley Cup was awarded after this game, so I think referring to it as the first Stanley Cup final is more accurate, as the MHC/Victorias game was more of the first SC playoff game (as whoever won that one advanced to play Ottawa HC for the Cup).

Pedantry aside, I'd be interested in reading about Pulford's play in the 22 March 1894 game (if that is indeed what you are referring to). The mentions tracker (based exclusively on primary sources- for this game, it is currently 2 Montreal and 2 Ottawa papers) I have has Young with the most commonly mentioned Ottawa player, with Kirby next in line. Pulford is in a 3-way tied for 3rd among Ottawa players, with 1/3 the mentions of Young.

An Ottawa paper reported the following about the game:

“the play of Young and Kirby was simply phenomenal. Young in the opinion of many put up the finest defence game ever witnessed in hockey. He was everywhere and always in the right place; nothing could pass him if he had half a chance at it, and apparently throughout the game he never missed or misplaced a lift. Kirby was the star of the forward lines on both sides, although Hodgson and Barlow of the Montrealers did splendid work. Joe McDougal’s headlong charges demoralized Mussen on one wing, but on the other Russell had his hands almost more than full with Hodgson, although the big Ottawa player showed splendid hockey too” and “... but the Montreal defence, Collins, Cameron, and James, were excellent, and indeed as far as James was concerned, very foul, and with the aid of a lenient referee the latter repeatedly spoiled fine Ottawa dashes”

I've been nothing but supportive of Walsh. For over a decade. You wouldn't be able to present an argument for him that I haven't already.

Indeed, as this thread attests, your preliminary list had Walsh at 32, whereas Walsh ended up at 48. It also looks like you were one of Walsh's early supporters in Round 2.

 

[seventieslord]

It was over a decade ago. I guess i sound petty. I was just hurt. Ugh. It was between the time i bought 100+ hockey history books from you and the time you won the ATD.

In that exact time frame I had Walsh as a 4th line center myself.

 

[VanIslander]

@rmartin65

I read a newspaper report from the time how at halftime (an era prior to three periods) the star of the game was Pulford for his defensive play, and how Ottawa had a chance in the end because of him, though they didn't deliver. (I read it about 2008, so i have no direct link now. If i ever have a chance to effect historical ratings in the future, i'd spend an hour digging.

 

[rmartin65]

@rmartin65

I read a newspaper report from the time how at halftime (an era prior to three periods) the star of the game was Pulford for his defensive play, and how Ottawa had a chance in the end because of him, though they didn't deliver. (I read it about 2008, so i have no direct link now. If i ever have a chance to effect historical ratings in the future, i'd spend an hour digging.

Interesting. If you come across it again, please let me know, because I'd love to see it. I just re-read the four scans I have for the game (like I said, 2 from Montreal and 2 from Ottawa), and Pulford is simply not mentioned very frequently. In fact, the few times he was mentioned, it was mostly commenting on how he should have been ruled off at one point for foul play (instead he was merely warned).

Is there any chance you are thinking of another game? Pulford came up big in a couple games against Rat Portage (I believe), but that was quite some time later.

 

[rmartin65]

As if we needed more evidence to recognize Russell Bowie's greatness:

From The Boston Globe, 8 January 1912 Page 7

"That Russell Bowie is called by many followers of hockey the best player in the game, and at the same time has the reputation of not being put off the ice for foul play, goes to show that the "rough stuff" is by no means a necessary part of the sport. The Victoria rover is an ornament to the ice game in an all-round sense"

And that is in 1912!

 

[ResilientBeast]

Can we get the OP updated with each of the discussion threads?

Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 1
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 2
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 3
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 4
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 5
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 6
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 7
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 8
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 9
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 10
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 11
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 12

 

[jigglysquishy]

Can we get the OP updated with each of the discussion threads?

And aggregate list.

 

[seventieslord]

I've updated the OP. Has the aggregate list been posted? I can't seem to find it.

@BenchBrawl

 

[jigglysquishy]

I've updated the OP. Has the aggregate list been posted? I can't seem to find it.

@BenchBrawl

No it has not been posted yet.

 

[Chet Donnelly]

Just a minor correction, but Babe Dye's birth year is listed as 1892 in the OP. He was born in 1898.

@seventieslord

 

[rmartin65]

The Montreal Herald did us all a solid for the second half of the 1897 AHAC season, and gave some pretty detailed positional layouts-

Game 10- Montreal Herald 8 February 1897 Page 6

Victoria Goal
Lewis
Henderson
Grant
Davidson - McLea - MacDougall - Drinkwater

M. Smith - Dey - Westwick - A. Smith
Young
Pulford
Chittick
Ottawa Goal
​

Game 11- Montreal Herald 11 February 1897 Page 6

Montreal Goal
Collins
Murphy
Baird
Dawes - McKerrow - Barlow - Horsfall

Brown - ‘Smith’ - Wall - Dobby
Stephen
Belcourt
Pagnuelo
Shamrock Goal​

Game 12- Montreal Herald 15 February 1897 Page 6

Victoria Goal
Lewis
Grant
Davidson - MacDougall - Molson
McLea

Spittal
M. Smith - Westwick - A. Smith
Young
Pulford
Chittick
Ottawa Goal​

Game 13- Montreal Herald 15 February 1897 Page 6

Shamrock Goal
Pagnuelo
Stephens
O’Brien
Farrell - Wall - Dobby
Liffiton

Scott
Smith - Swift - Doyle
Watson
Scott
Stocking
Quebec Goal​

Game 14- Montreal Herald 18 February 1897 Page 6

Montreal Goal
Collins
Murphy
Baird
Horsfall - Barlow - Howard
McKerrow

Spittal
M. Smith - Westwick - A. Smith
Young
Pulford
Chittick
Ottawa Goal​

Game 15- Montreal Herald 22 February 1897 Page 6

Victoria Goal
Lewis
Henderson
Grant
Davidson - MacDougall - Ewing
McLea

A. Scott
Doyle - Swift - Smith
Watson
C. Scott
Stocking
Quebec Goal​

Game 16- Montreal Herald 22 February 1897 Page 6

Montreal Goal
Collins
Murphy
Baird
Dawes - Barlow - Horsfall
McKerrow

Spittal
M. Smith - Westwick - A. Smith
Young
Pulford
Chittick
Ottawa Goal​

Game 17- Montreal Herald 1 March 1897 Page 6

Quebec Goal
Stocking
C. Scott
Watson
Doyle - Swift - Smith
A.D. Scott

Spittal
M. Smith - Westwick - A. Smith
Young
Pulford
Chittick
Ottawa Goal​

Game 18- Montreal Herald 1 March 1897 Page 6

Victoria Goal
Lewis
Henderson
Grant
Davidson - MacDougall - Drinkwater
McLea

McKerrow
Dawes - Barlow - Horsfall
Baird
Murphy
Collins
Montreal Goal​

Game 19- Montreal Herald 3 March 1897 Page 6

Victoria goal
Lewis
Henderson
Grant
Ewing - MacDougall - Drinkwater
McLea

R. Wall
Brown - Smith - Dobby
F. Wall
Stephens
Pagnuelo
Shamrocks Goal​

Game 20- Montreal Herald 3 March 1897 Page 6

Ottawa Goal
Chittick
Pulford
Spittal
A. Smith - Westwick - M. Smith
Hutchison

Trihey
Brown - Farrell - Dobby
Wall
Stephens
Pagnuelo
Shamrocks Goal
​

I've said it before, and I'll say it again- Bob MacDougall should be listed as a Rover.

Unfortunately, 1898 doesn't continue this trend- which makes sense, because it took up a lot of space in the paper.

As always, please let me know if there are any questions or if you spot any eras. I'll post the updated AHAC scoring tables tonight or tomorrow morning (probably in a new thread).

 

[BenchBrawl]

The Montreal Herald did us all a solid for the second half of the 1897 AHAC season, and gave some pretty detailed positional layouts-

Game 10- Montreal Herald 8 February 1897 Page 6

Victoria Goal
Lewis
Henderson
Grant
Davidson - McLea - MacDougall - Drinkwater

M. Smith - Dey - Westwick - A. Smith
Young
Pulford
Chittick
Ottawa Goal
​

Game 11- Montreal Herald 11 February 1897 Page 6

Montreal Goal
Collins
Murphy
Baird
Dawes - McKerrow - Barlow - Horsfall

Brown - ‘Smith’ - Wall - Dobby
Stephen
Belcourt
Pagnuelo
Shamrock Goal​

Game 12- Montreal Herald 15 February 1897 Page 6

Victoria Goal
Lewis
Grant
Davidson - MacDougall - Molson
McLea

Spittal
M. Smith - Westwick - A. Smith
Young
Pulford
Chittick
Ottawa Goal​

Game 13- Montreal Herald 15 February 1897 Page 6

Shamrock Goal
Pagnuelo
Stephens
O’Brien
Farrell - Wall - Dobby
Liffiton

Scott
Smith - Swift - Doyle
Watson
Scott
Stocking
Quebec Goal​

Game 14- Montreal Herald 18 February 1897 Page 6

Montreal Goal
Collins
Murphy
Baird
Horsfall - Barlow - Howard
McKerrow

Spittal
M. Smith - Westwick - A. Smith
Young
Pulford
Chittick
Ottawa Goal​

Game 15- Montreal Herald 22 February 1897 Page 6

Victoria Goal
Lewis
Henderson
Grant
Davidson - MacDougall - Ewing
McLea

A. Scott
Doyle - Swift - Smith
Watson
C. Scott
Stocking
Quebec Goal​

Game 16- Montreal Herald 22 February 1897 Page 6

Montreal Goal
Collins
Murphy
Baird
Dawes - Barlow - Horsfall
McKerrow

Spittal
M. Smith - Westwick - A. Smith
Young
Pulford
Chittick
Ottawa Goal​

Game 17- Montreal Herald 1 March 1897 Page 6

Quebec Goal
Stocking
C. Scott
Watson
Doyle - Swift - Smith
A.D. Scott

Spittal
M. Smith - Westwick - A. Smith
Young
Pulford
Chittick
Ottawa Goal​

Game 18- Montreal Herald 1 March 1897 Page 6

Victoria Goal
Lewis
Henderson
Grant
Davidson - MacDougall - Drinkwater
McLea

McKerrow
Dawes - Barlow - Horsfall
Baird
Murphy
Collins
Montreal Goal​

Game 19- Montreal Herald 3 March 1897 Page 6

Victoria goal
Lewis
Henderson
Grant
Ewing - MacDougall - Drinkwater
McLea

R. Wall
Brown - Smith - Dobby
F. Wall
Stephens
Pagnuelo
Shamrocks Goal​

Game 20- Montreal Herald 3 March 1897 Page 6

Ottawa Goal
Chittick
Pulford
Spittal
A. Smith - Westwick - M. Smith
Hutchison

Trihey
Brown - Farrell - Dobby
Wall
Stephens
Pagnuelo
Shamrocks Goal
​

I've said it before, and I'll say it again- Bob MacDougall should be listed as a Rover.

Unfortunately, 1898 doesn't continue this trend- which makes sense, because it took up a lot of space in the paper.

As always, please let me know if there are any questions or if you spot any eras. I'll post the updated AHAC scoring tables tonight or tomorrow morning (probably in a new thread).

Great find!

Example 1:

Montreal Goal
Collins
Murphy
Baird
Dawes - McKerrow - Barlow - Horsfall
​

Is there any meaning to the sides among the forwards in Example 1, or is it more like an enumeration?

Example 2:

Victoria goal
Lewis
Henderson
Grant
Ewing - MacDougall - Drinkwater
McLea
​

What can we infer from Example 2? That MacDougall is a rover, Ewing & Drinkwater are wingers, and McLea is a center?

 

[rmartin65]

Great find!

Example 1:

Montreal Goal
Collins
Murphy
Baird
Dawes - McKerrow - Barlow - Horsfall
​

Is there any meaning to the sides among the forwards in Example 1, or is it more like an enumeration?

As far as I understand it, the sides are done intentionally. So Dawes is the RW, Horsfall the LW there. Rover and center are tricky here. 1898 or 1899 has a couple games where a center is listed and a left center is listed, so maybe we can assume the left center is the rover, but I’m not married to that idea.

Example 2:

Victoria goal
Lewis
Henderson
Grant
Ewing - MacDougall - Drinkwater
McLea
​

What can we infer from Example 2? That MacDougall is a rover, Ewing & Drinkwater are wingers, and McLea is a center?

That is my belief, yes. Ewing at RW, Drinkwater at LW.

My reasoning is that the rover is almost always referred to as being between the coverpoint and the center, so it makes sense for that middle player to be the rover.