HOH Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All-Time

rmartin65

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Apr 7, 2011
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I believe our highest ranked player that I did not rank was Allen Cameron, who I knew zero about coming into this project.
I believe Irvin was the highest ranked player on our list that I didn't have on my preliminary (and I would definitely put him on my list now).

It looks like Westwick was the highest player that I ranked that the group did not (and I would not have him nearly that high now).
 

jigglysquishy

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Jun 20, 2011
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I believe Irvin was the highest ranked player on our list that I didn't have on my preliminary (and I would definitely put him on my list now).

It looks like Westwick was the highest player that I ranked that the group did not (and I would not have him nearly that high now).
Bobby Rowe and Jack Laviolette for me, both of which I ranked way too high.

I think it's good that everyone is reflecting after 8 months of discussion.
 

Dr John Carlson

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Dec 21, 2011
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I think Laviolette is a name that could've warranted discussion. I'm certain that among players who didn't show up in the project, he commanded the most star power. Though I have a feeling that he might be the true 'all style no substance' guy based on my limited reading of him.

Anyway, nothing wrong with outlier rankings on preliminary lists. I had my share of mine. Some of them held up IMO, some of them didn't. The ones that didn't were all due to a lack of familiarity with the player in question, familiarity which was gained during discussion rounds - more knowledge is a good thing!
 

rmartin65

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Apr 7, 2011
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I think Laviolette is a name that could've warranted discussion. I'm certain that among players who didn't show up in the project, he commanded the most star power. Though I have a feeling that he might be the true 'all style no substance' guy based on my limited reading of him.
For what it is worth, from my limited readings (3 seasons), I am in complete agreement with you. I think his 1904 season was quite strong (probably the best RW in the FAHL that year, IMO), but then he doesn't really distinguish himself on an average 1908 Shamrock team (5-5 record) and on a poor 1909 Shamrock team (2-10 record). He gets some mentions as the best player on his team, but also stuff like the following:

“Laviolette was easily the most showy player of the match Saturday”

“If Laviolette’s work was as effective as it is showy he would be a great hockey player”

“Hall, Johnson and Laviolette seem to be about the fastest skaters in the League this year but none of them are above par on scoring ability"

“In their lightning rushes down the ice both Pitre and Laviolette seem to sacrifice effectiveness or speed. If they eased up a little they might get better control of the puck”

“All eyes centered on Jack Laviolette, but while the French-Canadian defence man worked hard to sustain his great reputation, there was not much effect to his play”

“Jack Laviolette was there with the fancy goods again. Along with Pitre, now of Renfrew, but last year of Shamrocks, Laviolette last season shared the honors for performing circus stunts on the ice. He gave another fine display against Ottawa, but what he showed in frills he lacked in effectiveness”

“Laviolette is as fast and tricky as ever, but his work was, though showy, not very effective against the solid Ottawa bunch”

“Marshall played an effective game, blocking with great skill, while Laviolette was less showy than usual, but more effective"

“For Shamrocks, Laviolette starred in wonderful dashes up the ice, but, as usual, he was not effective in helping the scoring along"

“Laviolette was back in the game for the Shams and while he made a number of sensational rushes his work was not very effective”

Now, I do think he was also a very good player- as I said, he does get a lot of mentions for being one of the stars for those Shamrocks teams (probably more than Pitre received when they were on the same team. More than Marshall too, I think). But I also think his star power was heavily influenced by a showiness that doesn't seem to have positively moved the needle for his teams. He would have been a fun player to discuss, but I don't know if I would have ever voted for him.

Since we are on the topic- in the last thread, @Black Gold Extractor brought up the idea of listing names that we never got to discuss that we perhaps should have at least discussed. I believe he mentioned Billy Breen and Rod Flett, and I added Billy Gilmour, Whitey Merritt, Archie Hodgson, Chauncey Kirby, and Fred Higginbotham. @nabby12 mentioned Tony Gingras, Charlie Johnstone, Fred Scanlan, and Steamer Maxwell. Are there other names that people think should have been discussed?
 

Dr John Carlson

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I would agree on Billy Gilmour, also Bruce Stuart from the same time period. Laviolette, of course. I said before that it's unfortunate Billy Burch wasn't eligible for discussion, I should've brought him up in the preliminary thread. Jimmy Gardner played on a lot of good teams and played well for a long time, he was somebody I was interested in, though he looks to me a lot like a Rusty Crawford-type who was never truly great.

I guess I have a soft spot for the Manitoba League in the late 1910s since I spent a lot of time there researching Irvin, so I'd also say Hal Winkler, who jumped around from team to team, league to league, and enjoyed success basically wherever he went. Admittedly it would be a tough sell. Who'd even be the next goalie up for discussion, in a hypothetical world where this project continued indefinitely? Probably Whitey Merritt? Winkler couldn't be too far behind.
 

nabby12

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I would agree on Billy Gilmour, also Bruce Stuart from the same time period. Laviolette, of course. I said before that it's unfortunate Billy Burch wasn't eligible for discussion, I should've brought him up in the preliminary thread. Jimmy Gardner played on a lot of good teams and played well for a long time, he was somebody I was interested in, though he looks to me a lot like a Rusty Crawford-type who was never truly great.

I guess I have a soft spot for the Manitoba League in the late 1910s since I spent a lot of time there researching Irvin, so I'd also say Hal Winkler, who jumped around from team to team, league to league, and enjoyed success basically wherever he went. Admittedly it would be a tough sell. Who'd even be the next goalie up for discussion, in a hypothetical world where this project continued indefinitely? Probably Whitey Merritt? Winkler couldn't be too far behind.

Yes, I'm with you on Hal Winkler. He was higher on my list too, along with Merritt.

I've researched and written about Winkler extensively in the past, so I could post those findings here at some point.
 

rmartin65

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Apr 7, 2011
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I would agree on Billy Gilmour, also Bruce Stuart from the same time period. Laviolette, of course. I said before that it's unfortunate Billy Burch wasn't eligible for discussion, I should've brought him up in the preliminary thread. Jimmy Gardner played on a lot of good teams and played well for a long time, he was somebody I was interested in, though he looks to me a lot like a Rusty Crawford-type who was never truly great.
Fun fact about Bruce Stuart- I believe he captained 3 separate teams to league championships and/or Stanley Cup victories in 3 consecutive seasons (Portage Lakes in 1907, Montreal Wanderers in 1908, Ottawa HC in 1909). As I have mentioned, I suspect that he may have been considered a more valuable player than Ernie Russell.

Gardner is interesting. He never really jumped off the page for me, but he seems to have been remembered fondly and made the HHoF in 1963.

I guess I have a soft spot for the Manitoba League in the late 1910s since I spent a lot of time there researching Irvin, so I'd also say Hal Winkler, who jumped around from team to team, league to league, and enjoyed success basically wherever he went. Admittedly it would be a tough sell. Who'd even be the next goalie up for discussion, in a hypothetical world where this project continued indefinitely? Probably Whitey Merritt? Winkler couldn't be too far behind.
Without looking at the list @seventieslord compiled from everybody's preliminaries, I'd guess Merritt or Billy Nicholson (who I suspect was better than Hern).

I think we did a great job with our final 70, but I do think we missed out on some potentially good goalie talk. Merritt, Winkler, Nicholson, Jones, Giroux, Stocking, and Collins are some guys I think could have been discussed, at least in the initial research phase to try and get a good idea of how they measure up against each other.

That said, of the goalies we did discuss, this project has helped me to really sort them out. If I am looking at the correct version of my preliminary list, I had:

6. Vezina
8. Benedict
22. Lehman
23. Holmes
29. LeSueur
50. Paton
51. Nicholson
58. Moran
62. Hutton
65. Hern

Now I'd probably rank those same 10 players

Vezina
Lehman
Moran
Benedict
Holmes
LeSueur
Hutton
Paton
Nicholson
Hern (who I notice I misspelled Kern on my preliminary, haha, I guess my disrespect runs deep)

As I've done more reading, there is a good chance I add another goalie or two in there (Merritt for sure being one of them- I think I really messed up in unconsciously ignoring the early Western players outside of Bain). But, in any case, that is a lot of change! And it wouldn't have happened without this project, for which I am very thankful.

Something odd I just thought about- we added every goalie that became eligible. We also added every defender but Bobby Rowe. I don't know what this says (or if it even says anything), but it is something I just noticed.
 
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Professor What

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Something odd I just thought about- we added every goalie that became eligible. We also added every defender but Bobby Rowe. I don't know what this says (or if it even says anything), but it is something I just noticed.
I wonder if it means that we were too generous to forwards on our initial ballots. As you pointed out, the position breakdown ended up being almost perfect if you expect every position to have an equal amount of talent. Does that mean that if we had kept going we would have seen a glut of forwards?
 

ResilientBeast

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Player(s) with the least amount of support: Harry Trihey and Dan Bain with zero teammates on the list. Jack Campbell and Dolly Swift are honorable mentions, as they each only had one teammate make it (each other for only 4 games in 1887). Am I missing someone

Player(s) with the most support: I don’t know, does anybody have the number? I’m guessing it is either one of the Nighbor Sens or someone who bounced around a bit and landed on a couple strong teams. Cyclone Taylor, maybe? Played with Portage Lakes in the IPHL (I think with Riley Hern and Joe Hall), a very strong Ottawa HC team (Walsh, Phillips, Pulford, LeSueur, Alf Smith), then moved to the Renfrew super team (adding Lester Patrick, Frank Patrick, Newsy Lalonde, and Sprague Cleghorn), before finishing his career with the Vancouver Millionaires (Jack Adams, Si Griffis, Hugh Lehman, MacKay, Nighbor, Doc Roberts, and Pitre). That is 18 names, going to be hard to top that. @ResilientBeast come correct me if I misrepresented Taylor anywhere!

That feels about right for Taylor just glancing over the list
 
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rmartin65

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I wonder if it means that we were too generous to forwards on our initial ballots.
I suspect it is the opposite- we were too generous on defenders, which is why they were quite over-represented until late in the project (if we assume an equal talent distribution by position).

As you pointed out, the position breakdown ended up being almost perfect if you expect every position to have an equal amount of talent.
To me, keeping track of the position breakdown was more about making sure we weren't unduly over/under-rating a position and less about meeting specific numbers. I think they were best used as a guide, but as long as we were within a couple names of the expected number, we were doing ok. Some positions are generally stronger than others, and I don't think that is something that we should try to correct. Just to use as an example- Dye was our first RW at 22. I don't see a good case to have him much higher, and I think that is ok.

Does that mean that if we had kept going we would have seen a glut of forwards?
I imagine so- the holdover players would be almost all forwards, and (without looking at the master list) I believe that most of the upcoming names were forwards as well.
 
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jigglysquishy

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How much was our defensemen bias a true bias and how much of it was the nature of pre-forward pass hockey lending itself to rushing defensemen?

There were lots of d-men getting high praise from the contemporary reports.

Conversely, we only had two full time defensemen in the top 14. And six in the next 14. I think we did tend to bunch of defensemen in the 15-30 range. We weren't so much top heavy as middle heavy.
 

rmartin65

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Apr 7, 2011
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How much was our defensemen bias a true bias and how much of it was the nature of pre-forward pass hockey lending itself to rushing defensemen?
I like this observation a lot! That makes a ton of sense.

Using that as a springboard- I do hope that this project put to bed the idea that defenders didn't rush the puck until the 1900s. We have a lot of game summaries citing all kinds of defenders rushing the puck, and from one of the earliest organized leagues. From Jack Campbell in the late 1880s to Weldy Young and Mike Grant through the 1890s, defensive positions- especially coverpoints - rushed the puck to flip the ice.

There were lots of d-men getting high praise from the contemporary reports.
For sure, no arguments there. Really goalies are the ones who, particularly in the earliest years, suffered from a lack of coverage.

Conversely, we only had two full time defensemen in the top 14. And six in the next 14. I think we did tend to bunch of defensemen in the 15-30 range. We weren't so much top heavy as middle heavy.

Thanks for pointing this out; do you (or anyone else) have any ideas as to why that is? I'm leaning towards it being just random, but I'm also wondering if it is possibly a holdover from the ATD, given the value of defense in that environment.
 

jigglysquishy

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By position.

Centre/Rover
PositionPlayer
1Frank Nighbor
2Cyclone Taylor
3Newsy Lalone
4Russell Bowie
5Joe Malone
6Frank Fredrickson
7Mickey MacKay
8Frank McGee
9Duke Keats
10Frank Foyston
11Dan Bain
12Jack Walker
13Tommy Smith
14Reg Noble
15Dick Irvin
16Tommy Dunderdale
17Marty Walsh
18Ernie Russell
19Jack Marshall
20Dolly Swift
21Harry Trihey
22Jack Adams
23Harry Smith

Wingers
PositionPlayer
1Tommy Phillips
2Cy Denneny
3Babe Dye
4Didier Pitre
5George Hay
6Alf Smith
7Bernie Morris
8Bob MacDougall
9Gord Roberts
10Harry Oliver
11Punch Broadbent
12Haviland Routh
13Carson Cooper
14Dubbie Kerr
15Jack Darragh
16Harry Hyland
17Eddie Oatman

Defensemen
PlayerPosition
1Sprague Cleghorn
2Eddie Gerard
3Hod Stuart
4Georges Boucher
5Moose Johnson
6Lester Patrick
7Harry Cameron
8Harvey Pulford
9Mike Grant
10Art Ross
11Weldy Young
12Joe Simpson
13Jack Campbell
14Herb Gardiner
15Joe Hall
16Frank Patrick
17Si Griffis
18Art Duncan
19Allan Cameron
20Lloyd Cook
21Dickie Boon

Goalies
PlayerPosition
1Georges Vezina
2Clint Benedict
3Hugh Lehman
4Hap Holmes
5Percy LeSueur
6Paddy Moran
7Tom Paton
8Riley Hern
9Bouse Hutton
 

jigglysquishy

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There were 20 eligible players who made it into the HoH Top 200. Here is how they compare positionally.

PositionPlayerHoH Top 200 PositionDifference
1Frank Nighbor10
2Cyclone Taylor20
3Newsy Lalone30
4Sprague Cleghorn40
5Georges Vezina50
6Russell Bowie10+5
7Joe Malone6-1
8Eddie Gerard9+1
9Tommy Phillips12+3
10Clint Benedict7-3
11Hugh Lehman110
12Frank Fredrickson17+5
13Hod Stuart130
14Cy Denneny8-6
15Georges Boucher150
16Moose Johnson160
17Mickey MacKay14-3
18Frank McGeeNR-
19Duke Keats190
20Lester Patrick200

Babe Dye was the 18th highest ranked pre-merger player in the Top 200. He was 22nd here (-4).

Frank McGee was the 25th highest ranked pre-merger player on the aggregate Top 200. He was 18th here (+7).

Additionally, there were three pre-merger players eligible in the final round of the top 200, but didn't get in. If we rank them by the final vote

PositionPlayerHoH Top 200Difference
21Harry Cameron210
22Babe Dye18-4
23Harvey PulfordNR-
24Frank Foyston23-1

Hap Holmes finished 22nd in the Top 200 and 27th here. Didier Pitre finished 23rd in the Top 200 and 26th here.

Overall, we mostly stuck to the convention of the Top 200. The top five remained unchanged. Only four players in the top 20 moved by more than 3 positions (Bowie +5, Fredrickson +5, Denneny -6, McGee +7).

12 of the top 21 had identical placements between the lists.

In general, we moved up on amateur era players, moved down on dynasty players and offense-only players. Fredrickson's movement isn't part of the larger trend, but largely from great discussion on his ability as a player.
 

rmartin65

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I have a couple suggestions about the listed positions-

I'd argue that Lester Patrick's secondary position should be rover, not LW. He was a star at rover before moving back to point.

I think MacDougall is better listed as a center/rover. Evidence:

“The Vics won by their superb and utterly unselfish team play. Nearly every goal of the seven they took was made from splendid passes from the wings to the centre, where McLea or McDougall was always ready for the puck”

Likewise, I think Routh was largely a center, as there are multiple notes of him taking faceoffs in the game summaries.

EDIT- also for MacDougall, he's listed at either center or rover in a SC game against the Winnipeg Victorias on 30 December 1896 (McLea was at center or rover, Drinkwater at LW, and Davidson at RW).

More circumstantial evidence for Routh at center (or rover)- Bunny Lowe was a long time player for the Montreal HC teams, and one of the game summaries refers to him as a LW. That said, Lowe and Routh only really overlapped in 1893 (while they were both relevant/impactful players), so there could be some wiggle there. Archie Hodgson, whose career largely overlapped with Routh's, was listed in a piece from The Gazette on 17 January 1935 as being a RW.

Of course, position switching was quite common in the 1890s, so I can't (and wouldn't) say for certain that these guys were definitely, without a doubt, a particular position forever and always. Routh himself (and Hodgson, for what it is worth) also saw time at cover point, and other Montreal AAA players also switched positions (McNaughton at cover and a game at goal, Billy Barlow saw some time at point, etc) as well. But based on the sources I have seen, MacDougall and Routh should be, at the very least, considered C/R.
 
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JFA87-66-99

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Was there an aggregate list released for this project? I'd be curious to see were the McNamara brothers were at?
 

rmartin65

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Apr 7, 2011
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Was there an aggregate list released for this project? I'd be curious to see were the McNamara brothers were at?
The aggregate list has not yet been released, but the plan is for both the aggregate and individual voting records to be released.

If I'm looking at the right page in the spreadsheet, the following is the ranked list of players who did not become eligible for discussion. You'll note that George McNamara is the very first name (so he would have been eligible had we done another round), while Howard McNamara is the twelfth name (so it would have been another 2-3 rounds before he would have become eligible).

George McNamara
Herb Jordan
Hobey Baker
Clem Loughlin
Jack Laviolette
Bruce Stuart
Billy Nicholson
Billy McGimsie
George Richardson
Fred Scanlan
Hamby Shore
Howard McNamara
James Stewart
Cully Wilson
Steamer Maxwell
Clare McKerrow
Moose Goheen
Tony Gingras
Whitey Merritt
Goldie Prodgers
Reginald Bradley
Chauncey Kirby
Jimmy Gardner
Archie Hodgson
Slim Halderson
Art Farrell
Skene Ronan
Billy Breen
Jack Armytage
Archie McNaughton
Fred Higginbotham
Doc Gibson
Ken Randall
Roxy Beadro
Bert Russell
Leo Reise Sr.
Billy Gilmour
Doc Stewart
Konnie Johannesson
Bert Corbeau
Hal Winkler
Don Smith
Fred Lake
John Morrison
Gord Fraser
Billy Coutu
Lorne Campbell
Roy Brown
Billy Field
Alf Skinner
Pud Glass
Tom Hooper
 
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JFA87-66-99

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The aggregate list has not yet been released, but the plan is for both the aggregate and individual voting records to be released.

If I'm looking at the right page in the spreadsheet, the following is the ranked list of players who did not become eligible for discussion. You'll note that George McNamara is the very first name (so he would have been eligible had we done another round), while Howard McNamara is the twelfth name (so it would have been another 2-3 rounds before he would have become eligible).

George McNamara
Herb Jordan
Hobey Baker
Clem Loughlin
Jack Laviolette
Bruce Stuart
Billy Nicholson
Billy McGimsie
George Richardson
Fred Scanlan
Hamby Shore
Howard McNamara
James Stewart
Cully Wilson
Steamer Maxwell
Clare McKerrow
Moose Goheen
Tony Gingras
Whitey Merritt
Goldie Prodgers
Reginald Bradley
Chauncey Kirby
Jimmy Gardner
Archie Hodgson
Slim Halderson
Art Farrell
Skene Ronan
Billy Breen
Jack Armytage
Archie McNaughton
Fred Higginbotham
Doc Gibson
Ken Randall
Roxy Beadro
Bert Russell
Leo Reise Sr.
Billy Gilmour
Doc Stewart
Konnie Johannesson
Bert Corbeau
Hal Winkler
Don Smith
Fred Lake
John Morrison
Gord Fraser
Billy Coutu
Lorne Campbell
Roy Brown
Billy Field
Alf Skinner
Pud Glass
Tom Hooper
Thanks rmartin65 for posting this. I was curious as to how this HOF community ranks the McNamara brothers. Very interesting. A few names I've never heard are Billy Field, Roy Brown, John Morrison, Konnie Johannesson, and maybe Gord Fraser.
 
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rmartin65

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Apr 7, 2011
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I have a couple suggestions about the listed positions-

I'd argue that Lester Patrick's secondary position should be rover, not LW. He was a star at rover before moving back to point.

I think MacDougall is better listed as a center/rover. Evidence:

“The Vics won by their superb and utterly unselfish team play. Nearly every goal of the seven they took was made from splendid passes from the wings to the centre, where McLea or McDougall was always ready for the puck”

Likewise, I think Routh was largely a center, as there are multiple notes of him taking faceoffs in the game summaries.

EDIT- also for MacDougall, he's listed at either center or rover in a SC game against the Winnipeg Victorias on 30 December 1896 (McLea was at center or rover, Drinkwater at LW, and Davidson at RW).

More circumstantial evidence for Routh at center (or rover)- Bunny Lowe was a long time player for the Montreal HC teams, and one of the game summaries refers to him as a LW. That said, Lowe and Routh only really overlapped in 1893 (while they were both relevant/impactful players), so there could be some wiggle there. Archie Hodgson, whose career largely overlapped with Routh's, was listed in a piece from The Gazette on 17 January 1935 as being a RW.

Of course, position switching was quite common in the 1890s, so I can't (and wouldn't) say for certain that these guys were definitely, without a doubt, a particular position forever and always. Routh himself (and Hodgson, for what it is worth) also saw time at cover point, and other Montreal AAA players also switched positions (McNaughton at cover and a game at goal, Billy Barlow saw some time at point, etc) as well. But based on the sources I have seen, MacDougall and Routh should be, at the very least, considered C/R.

I'm doing more reading of some of the early SC series, and it looks like McLea was taking opening faceoff in the 30 December 1896 game against the Winnipeg Victorias, which would make McDougall a rover, at least for that game.

FWIW, Armytage was noted as doing the honors for Winnipeg, which suggests Bain was the rover there.

Again, small sample size, but it is another data point.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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By position.

Centre/Rover
PositionPlayer
1Frank Nighbor
2Cyclone Taylor
3Newsy Lalone
4Russell Bowie
5Joe Malone
6Frank Fredrickson
7Mickey MacKay
8Frank McGee
9Duke Keats
10Frank Foyston
11Dan Bain
12Jack Walker
13Tommy Smith
14Reg Noble
15Dick Irvin
16Tommy Dunderdale
17Marty Walsh
18Ernie Russell
19Jack Marshall
20Dolly Swift
21Harry Trihey
22Jack Adams
23Harry Smith

Wingers
PositionPlayer
1Tommy Phillips
2Cy Denneny
3Babe Dye
4Didier Pitre
5George Hay
6Alf Smith
7Bernie Morris
8Bob MacDougall
9Gord Roberts
10Harry Oliver
11Punch Broadbent
12Haviland Routh
13Carson Cooper
14Dubbie Kerr
15Jack Darragh
16Harry Hyland
17Eddie Oatman

Defensemen
PlayerPosition
1Sprague Cleghorn
2Eddie Gerard
3Hod Stuart
4Georges Boucher
5Moose Johnson
6Lester Patrick
7Harry Cameron
8Harvey Pulford
9Mike Grant
10Art Ross
11Weldy Young
12Joe Simpson
13Jack Campbell
14Herb Gardiner
15Joe Hall
16Frank Patrick
17Si Griffis
18Art Duncan
19Allan Cameron
20Lloyd Cook
21Dickie Boon

Goalies
PlayerPosition
1Georges Vezina
2Clint Benedict
3Hugh Lehman
4Hap Holmes
5Percy LeSueur
6Paddy Moran
7Tom Paton
8Riley Hern
9Bouse Hutton
I know them all.

I don't agree with the ranking, but i didn't participate this spring/summer as i changed jobs, changed homes, got COVID again, simply survived. Moose Johnson & Harvey Pulford were better than that, the former for such a long time relative to era and the latter from the first Stanley Cup playoff game loss in the 1890s where he was heralded as the defensive hero who kept the game close until the winning score late. 70slord is probably glad i haven't argued for Harry Hyland or Marty Walsh, both of whom i consistently have trotted out arguments for, to his chagrin.
 

seventieslord

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I know them all.

I don't agree with the ranking, but i didn't participate this spring/summer as i changed jobs, changed homes, got COVID again, simply survived. Moose Johnson & Harvey Pulford were better than that, the former for such a long time relative to era and the latter from the first Stanley Cup playoff game loss in the 1890s where he was heralded as the defensive hero who kept the game close until the winning score late. 70slord is probably glad i haven't argued for Harry Hyland or Marty Walsh, both of whom i consistently have trotted out arguments for, to his chagrin.
Lol

I've been nothing but supportive of Walsh. For over a decade. You wouldn't be able to present an argument for him that I haven't already.

And your "arguments" in favor of Hyland revolve around him being supposedly "clutch", but the majority of the provided examples are nothing more than "he scored a goal this one time"😂
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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I was lambasted for daring to put Marty Walsh 4th line center and your only comment was to pile on. I felt very alone in my fanhood. I can't list 24 better 4th-line role pivots in hockey history.

(I have never drafted my beloved Peca because he never trumped two or three better options.)

Moose Watson always intrigued me. Hooley Smith was 2nd fiddle to him by all accounts (on his line, like Blair Russel to Russell Bowie) but Hooley gave up his "amateur" status (it was an honorable thing, back when pros were paid peanuts) to become an NHLer. Both made the HHOF.
 

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