HOH Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All-Time

[seventieslord]

The following is the still-ongoing list of the top pre-1926 (pre-merger) performers as determined by the History of Hockey community.

Please report any errors to @seventieslord

#	Name	Pos	Born	Birthplace
1	Frank Nighbor	C/LW	1893	Pembroke, ON
2	Cyclone Taylor	R/D	1884	Tara, ON
3	Newsy Lalonde	C	1887	Cornwall, ON
4	Sprague Cleghorn	D	1890	Montreal, QC
5	Georges Vezina	G	1887	Chicoutimi, QC
6	Russell Bowie	R	1880	Montreal, QC
7	Joe Malone	C/LW	1890	Sillery, QC
8	Eddie Gerard	D	1890	Ottawa, ON
9	Tommy Phillips	LW	1883	Rat Portage, ON
10	Clint Benedict	G	1892	Ottawa, ON
11	Hugh Lehman	G	1885	Pembroke, ON
12	Frank Fredrickson	C	1895	Winnipeg, MB
13	Hod Stuart	CP	1879	Ottawa, ON
14	Cy Denneny	LW	1891	Farran's Point, ON
15	Georges Boucher	D	1896	Ottawa, ON
16	Moose Johnson	D/LW	1886	Montreal, QC
17	Mickey MacKay	R	1894	Chesley, ON
18	Frank McGee	C	1882	Ottawa, ON
19	Duke Keats	C	1895	Montreal, QC
20	Lester Patrick	D/LW	1883	Drummondville, QC
21	Harry Cameron	D	1890	Pembroke, ON
22	Babe Dye	RW	1892	Hamilton, ON
23	Harvey Pulford	P	1875	Toronto, ON
24	Frank Foyston	C	1891	Minesing, ON
25	Mike Grant	CP	1873	Montreal, QC
26	Didier Pitre	RW/D	1883	Valleyfield, QC
27	Hap Holmes	G	1888	Aurora, ON
28	Art Ross	D	1886	Naughton, ON
29	George Hay	LW	1898	Listowel, ON
30	Percy LeSueur	G	1881	Quebec, QC
31	Weldy Young	CP	1871	Ottawa, ON
32	Dan Bain	C	1874	Belleville, ON
33	Alf Smith	RW	1873	Ottawa, ON
34	Joe Simpson	D	1893	Selkirk, MB
35	Jack Walker	R	1888	Whitefish River Valley, ON
36	Paddy Moran	G	1877	Quebec, QC
37	Jack Campbell	CP	1866	Edinburgh, Scotland
38	Tommy Smith	C	1886	Ottawa, ON
39	Bernie Morris	RW	1890	Brandon, MB
40	Herb Gardiner	D	1891	Winnipeg, MB
41	Joe Hall	D	1881	Milwich, UK
42	Reg Noble	C/D	1896	Collingwood, ON
43	Frank Patrick	D	1885	Ottawa, ON
44	Dick Irvin	C	1892	Hamilton, ON
45	Bob MacDougall	RW	1876	Montreal, QC
46	Tommy Dunderdale	C	1887	Benalla, AU
47	Gord Roberts	LW	1891	Ottawa, ON
48	Marty Walsh	C	1884	Kingston, ON
49	Si Griffis	D/R	1883	Onaga, KS
50	Harry Oliver	RW	1898	Selkirk, MB
51	Art Duncan	D	1891	Sault Ste Marie, ON
52	Punch Broadbent	RW	1892	Ottawa, ON
53	Allan Cameron	CP	1863	Montreal, QC
54	Haviland Routh	RW	1871	Montreal, QC
55	Ernie Russell	C/R	1883	Montreal, QC
56	Jack Marshall	C/D	1877	St. Vallier, QC
57	Lloyd Cook	D	1890	Lynden, ON
58	Dolly Swift	R	1866	Quebec, QC
59	Carson Cooper	RW	1897	Cornwall, ON
60​	Dickie Boon	D
61​	Tom Paton	G
62​	Harry Trihey	C
63​	Dubbie Kerr	LW
64​	Jack Adams	C
65​	Riley Hern	G
66​	Jack Darragh	RW
67​	Bouse Hutton	G
68​	Harry Hyland	RW
69​	Eddie Oatman	RW
70​	Harry Smith	C

Positions from memory to the best of my ability. Those who played into the age where D was D, overrode years where they may have been P/CP. I tried to be judicious assigning secondary positions, there has to be a high-profile case of the player having a different position for a full season or regularly swapped between them within multiple seasons. I'm trying to avoid listing a third position for anyone, but feel free to advise me of cases where you think it is necessary (and provide evidence).

Discussion threads:
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 1
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 2
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 3
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 4
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 5
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 6
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 7
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 8
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 9
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 10
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 11
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 12

Aggregate list:



Voting results:

HOH Top-60 Pre-merger players: voting results

Vote 1: We had 15 of 16 members voting. name 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 NR Total Frank Nighbor 14 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 149 Cyclone Taylor 1 14 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 136 Newsy Lalonde 0 0 13 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 117 Sprague Cleghorn 0 0 2 6 7 0 0 0 0 0 0 100 Georges Vezina 0 0 0 3 2 6 2 2 0 0 0 77...

forums.hfboards.com

Individual voting records:
BenchBrawl
Black Gold Extractor
Dreakmur
Dr John Carlson
Habsfan18
ImporterExporter
jigglysquishy
Johnny Engine
nabby12
overpass
Professor What
ResilientBeast
rmartin65
seventieslord
tarheelhockey
TheDevilMadeMe

Click to read more...

 

[ResilientBeast]

This is really handy to look at given where we're at

 

[jigglysquishy]

Now I don't have to consult my excel file for who got in where.

Can we add birth places?

 

[seventieslord]

Now I don't have to consult my excel file for who got in where.

Can we add birth places?

If someone wants to do the work, I'll add it to the sheet!

Same with any other info.

 

[ResilientBeast]

If someone wants to do the work, I'll add it to the sheet!

Same with any other info.

Also just a note that the text above the table probably should be changed

 

[Professor What]

Birth places:

Frank Nighbor: Pembroke, ON
Cyclone Taylor: Tara, ON
Newsy Lalonde: Cornwall, ON
Sprague Cleghor: Montreal, QC
Georges Vezina: Chicoutimi, QC
Russell Bowie: Montreal, QC
Joe Malone: Sillery, QC
Eddie Gerard: Ottawa, ON
Tommy Phillips: Rat Portage, ON
Clint Benedict: Ottawa, ON
Hugh Lehman: Pembroke, ON
Frank Fredrickson: Winnipeg, MB
Hod Stuart: Ottawa, ON
Cy Denneny: Farran's Point, ON
Georges Boucher: Ottawa, ON
Moose Johnson: Montreal, QC
Mickey MacKay: Chesley, ON
Frank McGee: Ottawa, ON
Duke Keats: Montreal, QC
Lester Patrick: Drummondville, QC
Harry Cameron: Pembroke, ON
Babe Dye: Hamilton, ON
Harvey Pulford: Toronto, ON
Frank Foyston: Minesing, ON
Mike Grant: Montreal, QC
Didier Pitre: Valleyfield, QC
Hap Holmes: Aurora, ON
Art Ross: Naughton, ON
George Hay: Listowel, ON
Percy LeSueur: Quebec, QC

 

[seventieslord]

Birth places:

Frank Nighbor: Pembroke, ON
Cyclone Taylor: Tara, ON
Newsy Lalonde: Cornwall, ON
Sprague Cleghor: Montreal, QC
Georges Vezina: Chicoutimi, QC
Russell Bowie: Montreal, QC
Joe Malone: Sillery, QC
Eddie Gerard: Ottawa, ON
Tommy Phillips: Rat Portage, ON
Clint Benedict: Ottawa, ON
Hugh Lehman: Pembroke, ON
Frank Fredrickson: Winnipeg, MB
Hod Stuart: Ottawa, ON
Cy Denneny: Farran's Point, ON
Georges Boucher: Ottawa, ON
Moose Johnson: Montreal, QC
Mickey MacKay: Chesley, ON
Frank McGee: Ottawa, ON
Duke Keats: Montreal, QC
Lester Patrick: Drummondville, QC
Harry Cameron: Pembroke, ON
Babe Dye: Hamilton, ON
Harvey Pulford: Toronto, ON
Frank Foyston: Minesing, ON
Mike Grant: Montreal, QC
Didier Pitre: Valleyfield, QC
Hap Holmes: Aurora, ON
Art Ross: Naughton, ON
George Hay: Listowel, ON
Percy LeSueur: Quebec, QC

Jeeezus, 30 players in, and only one who wasn't born in Ontario or Quebec.

 

[Professor What]

Jeeezus, 30 players in, and only one who wasn't born in Ontario or Quebec.

I noticed the same thing. Not sure what to make of that.

 

[seventieslord]

I noticed the same thing. Not sure what to make of that.

I think it just means that most of the people in Canada lived in this relatively tightly packed area (Montreal, Quebec, Toronto, Ottawa) and it was the cradle of hockey for most of its relevant formative years.

 

[jigglysquishy]

For whatever it's worth, the white population in the west was negligible before 1870. Like maybe hit 25,000 combined west of Winnipeg. This number jumped to several million by 1910.

Alberta and Saskatchewan weren't open to settlers before Laurier.

With our birth dates being limited to roughly pre 1895, the player pool was very very small.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Jeeezus, 30 players in, and only one who wasn't born in Ontario or Quebec.

Kind of puts into perspective the amount of media references to Fredrickson such a strong product of the prairie leagues. Those references would have carried a semi-exotic tone that we have lost.

 

[nabby12]

Jeeezus, 30 players in, and only one who wasn't born in Ontario or Quebec.

Only one Manitoban is surprising. But it makes sense I guess.

It shows just how good Frank Fredrickson was though. Elite.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I've been browsing through the pre-consolidation project. I think this might be the most important project that HOH has ever taken on. There's been an enormous amount of information identified, and analyzed in a systematic way. I'm not aware of anybody else - an author, researcher, etc - ever having undertaken a project of this scope or scale.

The low level of participation is disappointing - and of course I'm one of the "regulars" who probably should have participated in this project. I've been spending less time on HFBoards in general lately. And this requires much more research, so it's hard to just "drop in". For example, I can stop by and put together a pretty good post about, say, the 2003 and 2004 Vezina trophy races with minimal time or effort (which I did last night). But doing a deep dive into the pros and cons of those who played 130 years ago - taking into account the rapid expansion of the talent pool, going through fragmentary and sometimes contradictory records, evaluating the strength of various rising and falling amateur leagues, considering the impact of significant rule changes - that requires much more effort.

I commend everyone who's participated in this one. A few decades from now, this could end up as HOH's "signature" project.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Looking at the list, I think the only players in the top 40 who aren't in Hall of Fame are Weldy Young and Bernie Morris (let me know if I missed anyone). Do we know why they weren't inducted into the Hall?

 

[rmartin65]

Looking at the list, I think the only players in the top 40 who aren't in Hall of Fame are Weldy Young and Bernie Morris (let me know if I missed anyone). Do we know why they weren't inducted into the Hall?

If I had to guess- Morris has the draft-dodger thing working against him. Young, I think, probably played the meaningful part of his career (aka his time with Ottawa HC) too early for people voting on the HHoF to be familiar with him. Very few 1890s (and 1880s) players are in the Hall, and I believe all of those that made it have a couple of Cups to their name. Young never played on a Cup winner, which makes it easier to forget him some 45+ years later.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The Bernie Morris story is covered in Empire of Ice, which is the best pre 1930 hockey book I've read.

Weldy Young is covered in Klondikers.

Both should be in the HHOF. As should Dolly Swift.

Summing up the latter as the HHOF functionally ignores pre 1895 hockey also works.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Can we consider Nighbor, Taylor and Lalonde the Big 3?

 

[seventieslord]

Can we consider Nighbor, Taylor and Lalonde the Big 3?

There might be some dissent on Lalonde, mainly centered around the idea that the "big 3" shouldn't all be forwards born within a few years of each other.

 

[rmartin65]

Can we consider Nighbor, Taylor and Lalonde the Big 3?

Some might. I've been going back and forth on this one since you posted the question, and - right now - I'm leaning towards no.

There might be some dissent on Lalonde, mainly centered around the idea that the "big 3" shouldn't all be forwards born within a few years of each other.

Yeah, I'm sure there is some of that (even if Taylor got his start on D). And it does feel weird, right? But for me, having done more reading, I think Vezina and Bowie deserve another glance at #3.

For Bowie- there is evidence of his greatness in the writings of those who watched him play. Plus, if one of Lalonde's big things is that he led his league in scoring 7 times- the stats I've pulled from the original sources indicate that Bowie also led his league in points 7 times (with the caveat that there is more uncertainty for Bowie due to the lack of reliable reporting), and he did it in far fewer seasons (Bowie retired from Senior level hockey at 27; Lalonde played regularly at the top level until he was 37). One of my self-imposed projects over the next 6 months or so is to see if I can flesh this out, or if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

For Vezina- the level of praise he gets from the papers during and immediately after his career is unparalleled for a goalie for the era.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Our discussions and voting leaned more towards Nighbor and Taylor being a big two. Or more specifically, Nighbor the consensus number 1, Taylor the consensus number 2. And while Lalonde got the majority of votes for 3, Vezina, Cleghorn, and Bowie were all relatively close.

I can see arguments for Lalone at 4, even if I have him at 3. I really struggle to see Taylor anywhere besides 2.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Now that we're done, big shoutout to @seventieslord and @rmartin65 for running this. I know it's a ton of work so thank you for facilitating this.

 

[seventieslord]

Now that we're done, big shoutout to @seventieslord and @rmartin65 for running this. I know it's a ton of work so thank you for facilitating this.

Now that we're done, big shoutout to @seventieslord and @rmartin65 for running this. I know it's a ton of work so thank you for facilitating this.

I was just a role player doing the boring and relatively easy administrative stuff. The biggest shoutout of all goes to @rmartin65 who did the majority of the deep research that really drove this project.

 

[nabby12]

Great job to @seventieslord and @rmartin65 for all of the work in seeing this project through!

 

[Professor What]

Birthplaces for the last few guys:

Dickie Boon: Belleville, ON
Tom Paton: Montreal, QC
Harry Trihey: Kitchener, ON
Albert Kerr: Brockville, ON
Jack Adams: Fort William, ON
Riley Hern: St. Marys, ON
Jack Darragh: Ottawa, ON
Bouse Hutton: Ottawa, ON
Harry Hyland: Montreal, QC
Eddie Oatman: Springfield, ON
Harry Smith: Ottawa, ON

 

[rmartin65]

Whew! Great job everyone, thanks for all the discussion and participation (both voters and non-voters alike)! @seventieslord did all the heavy lifting admin wise (compiling everyone's lists and ballots, posting the new threads, etc); without him, this project doesn't happen.