Hockey's Future's Fall 2004 Organizational Ranking are up

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kimzey59

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X-SHARKIE said:
I also don't see whats wrong the Blues assesment.

I don't have any problem with the "assesment" of the Blues. In fact, I find the assesment to be pretty fair(with one obvious flaw).

21. St. Louis Blues (22)
Strengths: The Blues have outstanding depth at the goaltending position with former first round picks Marek Schwarz and Jason Bacashihua, with support provided by Konstantin Barulin and Tuomas Nissinen. On defense, the Blues are only slightly less deep with Trevor Byrne, Zack FitzGerald, Robin Jonsson and Dennis Wideman as the top blueline prospects that offer a nice mix of size, physical play, and offensive upside. The Blues' forwards include scorers Konstantin Zakharov and Peter Sejna, a pure skill player in Alexei Shkotov, solid two-way players like Jay McClement and Michal Birner, and potential power forwards such as Carl Söderberg and David Backes.
Weaknesses: The Blues’ system lacks a true top-pairing defenseman, and *the talent on the wings as a group lags somewhat behind that of the crop of centers and certainly the pool of goalies.

* Factually incorrect as has already been stated by Stich(Most of our forward prospects play all 3 positions so I fail to see how they could make that claim).


1) The Blues have "OUTSTANDING" depth in net.
2) The Blues have good depth(and a good mix) on Defense.
3) The Blues have Good depth(and a good mix) up front.

The Ranking group had only 1 true complaint about our team and that was the lack of a 'Top Pair'(should read "Blue Chip") Defenseman.

Now explain why the Blues are ranked behind teams with the following descriptions.

1) Aside from center, the Flyers quickly thin out at all other positions past the top prospects.

2) Adding David Shantz at the 2004 draft was an absolute must for Florida’s future goaltending situation, but this is still an area that can and should be upgraded more. Depth on the blueline and on the wings is not as strong due to the graduation of several players in recent years.

3) After the top four prospects there is a pretty big drop off and most of the Senators secondary prospects, such as Mirnov and Bochenski, have question marks regarding their all-around game, particularly in their own zone

4) The forward ranks feature quality, but not much quantity, as most of players are more two-way style players. Additional size and strength up front would help as well. The goaltending situation is just the opposite where there are plenty of masked men but not a sure fire NHL starter amongst them.

5) The Sabres future blueline is dreadfully thin. Andrej Sekera, a two-way defenseman, is the most promising, with players like Michael Funk, Denis Denisov and Denis Ezhov likely to be career minor leaguers with occasional time on a third pairing in the NHL. Buffalo also lacks depth in goal with none besides Miller in its Top 20 prospects.

6) The forward ranks are filled with projects, especially down the middle, and there isn’t much in terms of pure scoring potential. Goaltending continues to be a sore point, featuring some projects but no sure-fire NHLers.


I'm sorry, I just don't understand how the commitee can have so few weaknesses about the Blues organization and still have them in the bottom 9 in the League. Just going by the team assessment the Blues should be in that 11-20 group, going by the "Blue Chip" method the Blues should be in that 11-20 group based on Schwarz. Any way you want to argue this the Blues are ranked about 5-10 spots too low and I HAVE to question the reason(s) for that.
 

Pepper

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xtra said:
Yea i think they are bottom 5 and i think they shoudl have beeen 26 ahead of Colorado Toronto Isleanders and Hurricanes(who i don't think other than ward have many good prospects. And Ladd is overrated. I was not imppressed with him when i saw him play.)

Ladd alone puts Canes ahead of Canucks in my books...
 

hunter1909*

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so...oilers are in 4th prospect-wise...

i wonder where they would be after factoring in that wood chip brained coach of theirs...who seemingly has shown ZERO ability to bring along any talent...

whats the use of prospects without a smart head coach to forge them into a team
 

leafaholix*

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Pepper said:
Ladd alone puts Canes ahead of Canucks in my books...
I'm not sure, Ladd has got to be one of the most overrated prospects in the league. He went from nothing to a top 5 pick because of one great WHL season.
 

Mess

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Leafaholix said:
I'm not sure, Ladd has got to be one of the most overrated prospects in the league. He went from nothing to a top 5 pick because of one great WHL season.

I have to agree .. Andrew Ladd came out of NO WHERE to be a high pick ... I credit his success in the WHL in large part to playing with Ryan Getzlaf .... The Majority of Ladd's points came from 5 ft in front of the net .. banging in rebounds and loose pucks...It there ever was a player that had "POTENTIAL" bust written on him ...This is the guy..

I remember watching the RE/MAX CANADA/RUSSIA CHALLENGE tour of the Russian team that played 2 games against each CHL league .... Well in those 2 WHL games ... Getzlaf made his then linemates Jeremy Williams and Tyler Redenbach look like All-stars in those exhibition games...

Those games where played in Nov 2003 ...and Andrew Ladd wasn't even named to the team and 6 months later he is a TOP 5 NHL entry draft pick ... Crosby played for his league 2 years before his draft year ..
 
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Pepper

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Could be, obviously Ladd has high potential even though he might be risky/unlikely to reach that potential.

I just don't see anyone in Canucks system who has potential to become first or even second liner/pairing player.
 

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I enjoyed the entire writeup and while there will always be differences of opinion, I appreciate the time and effort the staff put into making this list. Thank you.
 

Mess

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Pepper said:
Could be, obviously Ladd has high potential even though he might be risky/unlikely to reach that potential.

I just don't see anyone in Canucks system who has potential to become first or even second liner/pairing player.

Hey I personally think the Canucks should be really close to the bottom ... So I agree there .. Alex Auld (G), Ryan Kesler (F) and Kirill Koltsov (D) have got to be one of the weakest TOP 3 prospect by position of many teams ... Mizral must have really been a good debater at the ranking meetings
 

hossy316

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hunter1909 said:
so...oilers are in 4th prospect-wise...

i wonder where they would be after factoring in that wood chip brained coach of theirs...who seemingly has shown ZERO ability to bring along any talent...

whats the use of prospects without a smart head coach to forge them into a team


Ohhh, and who are you Scotty Bowman??? :banghead:
 

hunter1909*

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in my opinion mactavish is a horrible coach...

now...all you moron mactavish apologists...

how about lising mactavishes GOOD points as a coach...

ps: tearing out flames mascot tongues doesnt count as a good point
 

LastoftheBrunnenG

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Sotnos said:
I guess what bothers me about these things is the overemphasis on having a blue chip prospect and the lack of attention to organizational needs. Tampa has dropped like a rock since Svitov graduated, while I think the depth and overall quality in areas that were thin is much better. There was nothing in the system beyond Svitov two years ago, yet they were ranked 4th, I believe. Definitely better off this year than last year, yet they dropped once again! Thin at center? It's not a need right now, so why does this count? Since no one else has even discussed Tampa here, I thought I'd mention it.

I understand the need to rate everyone on talent and blue chip talent is a commodity. A player rating a 10 is worth much much more than two 5's, for example. Having said that and letting my Bolt bias show, we all know that the farm system is as healthy now as it has ever been in Tampa's history. They have their own team, with their own system and it's 'type' of players. Shrug...not losing sleep over it because the Bolts themselves are young AND proven, which gives the organization the luxury of developing the system the right way.

We're #1 in a more important way. :)

But that was not what the list was for.
 

Beukeboom Fan

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LastoftheBrunnenG said:
I understand the need to rate everyone on talent and blue chip talent is a commodity. A player rating a 10 is worth much much more than two 5's, for example. Having said that and letting my Bolt bias show, we all know that the farm system is as healthy now as it has ever been in Tampa's history. They have their own team, with their own system and it's 'type' of players. Shrug...not losing sleep over it because the Bolts themselves are young AND proven, which gives the organization the luxury of developing the system the right way.

We're #1 in a more important way. :)

But that was not what the list was for.

Look at it like this - there aren't very many very good NHL teams at the top of the prospect list! Which would you rather have - a great NHL team, or a great group of prospects, over half of which will never get an NHL paycheck?
 

Sotnos

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Beukeboom Fan said:
Look at it like this - there aren't very many very good NHL teams at the top of the prospect list! Which would you rather have - a great NHL team, or a great group of prospects, over half of which will never get an NHL paycheck?
Looking at some of the guys from that '01 list that were supposed to be the "Bolts' Future" like Kudroc and Biron...I think it goes without saying which we'd rather have. :) Very prophetic of them to note Afanasenkov as a "solid prospect" though.
 

Beukeboom Fan

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Sotnos said:
Looking at some of the guys from that '01 list that were supposed to be the "Bolts' Future" like Kudroc and Biron...I think it goes without saying which we'd rather have. :) Very prophetic of them to note Afanasenkov as a "solid prospect" though.

That's the point that is often missed here IMO. More than half the names that people throw out there as prospects will never see the light of day in the NHL.

I think that drives home 2 points:
1) Blue Chippers drive serious "value" within the rankings because they are seen as sure fire contributors to the NHL (however - see Pavel Brendl).
2) Depth SHOULD be incredibly important because of the lack of certainty with so many of the prospects.

I think that 1) tends to get overemphisized because it's easy to point to the top tier guys, and 2) tends to get underemphisized because it's so difficult to know where where the future contributors are going to come from. If history tells us anything about prospects, it's that guys you don't expect to make it will, and some guys you really expect to make it fail.

Just my $.02.
 

Pepper

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Beukeboom Fan said:
That's the point that is often missed here IMO. More than half the names that people throw out there as prospects will never see the light of day in the NHL.

I think that drives home 2 points:
1) Blue Chippers drive serious "value" within the rankings because they are seen as sure fire contributors to the NHL (however - see Pavel Brendl).
2) Depth SHOULD be incredibly important because of the lack of certainty with so many of the prospects.

I think that 1) tends to get overemphisized because it's easy to point to the top tier guys, and 2) tends to get underemphisized because it's so difficult to know where where the future contributors are going to come from. If history tells us anything about prospects, it's that guys you don't expect to make it will, and some guys you really expect to make it fail.

Just my $.02.

Blue chippers are many times more likely to make it to NHL, not to mention becoming a star in NHL than 'depth' prospects.

So in order to get 1 full-time NHL player, you need either 2 blue-chippers or 10 depth prospects (numbers are examples only). Or to get 1 star NHL-player you need 4 blue-chippers or 40 depth prospects etc.
 

Beukeboom Fan

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Pepper said:
Blue chippers are many times more likely to make it to NHL, not to mention becoming a star in NHL than 'depth' prospects.

So in order to get 1 full-time NHL player, you need either 2 blue-chippers or 10 depth prospects (numbers are examples only). Or to get 1 star NHL-player you need 4 blue-chippers or 40 depth prospects etc.

I agree with you in general, but I think you are undervaluing depth. Remember when Milan Hejduk went from not on the Av's to 10 prospects for THN to being a 30+ goal scorer within 2 years?

It just seems like the contributions do not always come from the guys you expect, and a deep organization is more likely to have guys surprise.
 
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