Hockey of the past vs today

[Midnight Judges]

Yes, but not at playing hockey. That happens with the children of the children.

Uh, like, maybe.

 

[Canadiens1958]

No, I'm pointing out that if Gordie Howe and Jean Beliveau didn't need elite level minor hockey, then neither do today's players....unless you are acknowledging that today's players face higher level competition.

Howe and Beliveau played elite minor hockey:

Howe

Gordie Howe - Wikipedia

Beliveau

Jean Beliveau Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[Kyle McMahon]

No, I'm pointing out that if Gordie Howe and Jean Beliveau didn't need elite level minor hockey, then neither do today's players....unless you are acknowledging that today's players face higher level competition.

This is flat out wrong. Major junior teams do not draft from house league, so you must be playing elite-level minor hockey to get into the NHL feeder system.

Look at the number of players drafted out of prep academies in this year's WHL bantam draft: Source

That's 14 of the 22 first round picks coming from a source that is cost-prohibitive to most Canadian families.

This article is a good read. A very telling quote near the end from a former owner of a prep academy, who sold it out of apparent disgust in the direction the system was going. "A class system is forming, he fears, where you not only have to be the most talented but also among the wealthiest to succeed."

Jean Beliveau and Gordie Howe came from the general population.

From Wikipedia, on Jean Beliveau: "His first organized team was in a house league at L'Académie, which played on the school's rink. As part of a squad of L'Académie 'all-stars', Jean played against other local teams"

Jean Beliveau emerged from conditions affordable to most, not just the wealthy.

on Gordie Howe: "Howe was born in a farmhouse in Floral, Saskatchewan, the son of Katherine (Schultz) and Albert Howe. He was one of nine siblings. When Gordie was nine days old, the Howes moved to Saskatoon, where his father worked as a labourer during the Depression. In the summers, Howe would work construction with his father....He began playing organized hockey at age eight. Howe quit school during the Depression to work in construction, then left Saskatoon at 16 to pursue his hockey career."

Good thing Albert Howe just needed to come up with money for skates and a stick...he surely could not have afforded much beyond that. A player from Howe's background would have no chance of ever reaching the NHL today, for no other reason than lack of finances at the developmental age.

The Original Six era pulled players from a Canadian talent pool that included every boy with the desire and talent to play hockey, so long as he could at least afford skates and a stick.

The present day NHL is pulling players from a Canadian talent pool that includes every boy with the desire and talent to play hockey, so long as he can afford to attend hockey schools costing upwards of $50,000 annually.

So which is greater in number: The amount of people who could afford skates in 1940, or the amount of people who can afford hockey academies in 2018?

 

[overpass]

No, I'm pointing out that if Gordie Howe and Jean Beliveau didn't need elite level minor hockey, then neither do today's players....unless you are acknowledging that today's players face higher level competition.

Gordie Howe and Jean Beliveau learned the game of hockey in a time when hockey resources such as ice time and coaching were provided through community organizations and accessible to everyone.

Today it falls upon the parents to pay for those resources, excluding some who can’t pay. The community organizations and resources no longer exist due to major changes in Canadian society.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Good thing Albert Howe just needed to come up with money for skates and a stick...he surely could not have afforded much beyond that. A player from Howe's background would have no chance of ever reaching the NHL today, for no other reason than lack of finances at the developmental age.

The Original Six era pulled players from a Canadian talent pool that included every boy with the desire and talent to play hockey, so long as he could at least afford skates and a stick.

The present day NHL is pulling players from a Canadian talent pool that includes every boy with the desire and talent to play hockey, so long as he can afford to attend hockey schools costing upwards of $50,000 annually.

It's already been pointed out to you that there are scholarships and other subsidized programs.

NCAA has scholarships out the wazoo for athletes and 30% of the NHL comes from there.

The powers that be are not going to pass up NHL talent because of tuition. NHL players are a gold mine for them.

 

[ted2019]

A lot of top athletic boys these days simply cannot afford the equipment, and catalogue-taped shin pads and horse pie pucks aren't acceptable these days, and with urbanization, pond hockey isn't a fee-free option for the vast majority of kids. Instead, their parents hook them up technologically with a one-time xmas gift and gifted youngsters can become gamers for years and years and never play THE GAME.

Also, kids these days are just plain lazy.

 

[Michael Farkas]

NCAA has scholarships out the wazoo for athletes

Didn't care before, but now I think we should take this outside. Scholarships offered to 20 year olds from the NCAA of all places launches this thing way out of coherence...a damaging shot to one's own foot...that's gonna get infected...

 

[wetcoast]

Didn't care before, but now I think we should take this outside. Scholarships offered to 20 year olds from the NCAA of all places launches this thing way out of coherence...a damaging shot to one's own foot...that's gonna get infected...

I don't understand this post nor the one it was referencing.

The CHL provides some funding for post secondary education.

Not sure of all of the details but man we are off the rails here.

 

[Michael Farkas]

We're talking about youth development and access. Judge Reinhold is talking about how the crooked (sad!) NCAA hands out scholarships to 20 and 21 year olds. Check out the average age of a college freshman playing NCAA D1 hockey...it sure ain't 18. And if it was, it still wouldn't be relevant. NCAA isn't close to the entry point. That's the exit usually...the end of the line.

I think folks with a deeper understanding of the CHL and USHL -> NCAA wouldn't be making these claims...

 

[Kyle McMahon]

It's already been pointed out to you that there are scholarships and other subsidized programs.

NCAA has scholarships out the wazoo for athletes and 30% of the NHL comes from there.

The powers that be are not going to pass up NHL talent because of tuition. NHL players are a gold mine for them.

NCAA is the very end of the development stream. Players who couldn't afford elite level minor hockey are years removed from the game by the time they are NCAA age.

 

[wetcoast]

I can think of one reason why you didn't write it down.

Balls.

More accurately, lack thereof.

I can only think of one reason why you guys desire to pretend the hockey pool has not increased.

I don't really care for motives or attacks, I'm more about facts.

I think it's pretty clear that the talent pool has changed in the NHL starting in the 70's continuing in the 80's and really exploding in the 90's.

Then perhaps it fluctuated a bit and we are currently seeing a new wave of Finnish and American prospects, among other nations in the overall talent pool.

I don't care about participation rates or population increases, they really don't matter in the big scheme of things here.

What does matter is that starting in the 70's and 80's some of the elite talent in the NHL wasn't coming from the traditional talents streams.

The elite non Canadian talent stream probably peaked a bit in the 90's and has gone up and down a bit since then.

The NHL, starting with Salming in 75, started to see a sprinkle of non Canadians on the post season all star teams, something that hadn't been done since Frank Bismarck in 48.

In 1983 there were 2 non Canadians on the post season all star teams in Langway and Rollie the goalie Melanson.

The following year 84 it was Langway, Barrasso and Kurri.

In 85 there were 4 players.

By the time the 90's rolled around there were sometimes more than half of the post season all stars that were non Canadians.

This year the 3 leading candidates for the Calder are 2 Swedes and a Finn and in fact the top 7 scoring rookies in the NHL are not Canadians..

Last year it was some Americans and a guy from BC 1 other Canadian and a Swiss in the top 7.

This would all be just trivia if not for one important factor.

Canada was still the dominant hockey nation in the world, producing as much talent as it ever had.

The results are quite clear, the talent pool for the NHL started to change in the 70's and matured somewhat to where it is today sometime in the 90's.

so the notion that the talent pool hasn't changed for the NHL simply is just that, a notion, an idea, a belief.

The fact of the matter is the reality of the NHL talent pool has changed significantly in the last 40 years.

A white russian was consumed during the writing of this post as per the OP (if it applied, even if it didn't it sure was enjoyable).

 

[MXD]

Roland Melanson isnt Canadian?

 

[wetcoast]

Roland Melanson isnt Canadian?

My bad.

I stand corrected on him but the general trend still remains the same.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I don't really care for motives or attacks, I'm more about facts.

I think it's pretty clear that the talent pool has changed in the NHL starting in the 70's continuing in the 80's and really exploding in the 90's.

Then perhaps it fluctuated a bit and we are currently seeing a new wave of Finnish and American prospects, among other nations in the overall talent pool.

I don't care about participation rates or population increases, they really don't matter in the big scheme of things here.

What does matter is that starting in the 70's and 80's some of the elite talent in the NHL wasn't coming from the traditional talents streams.

The elite non Canadian talent stream probably peaked a bit in the 90's and has gone up and down a bit since then.

The NHL, starting with Salming in 75, started to see a sprinkle of non Canadians on the post season all star teams, something that hadn't been done since Frank Brismark in 48

In 1983 there were 2 non Canadians on the post season all star teams in Langway and Rollie the goalie Melanson.

The following year 84 it was Langway, Barrasso and Kurri.

In 85 there were 4 players.

By the time the 90's rolled around there were sometimes more than half of the post season all stars that were non Canadians.

This year the 3 leading candidates for the Calder are 2 Swedes and a Finn and in fact the top 7 scoring rookies in the NHL are not Canadians..

Last year it was some Americans and a guy from BC 1 other Canadian and a Swiss in the top 7.

This would all be just trivia if not for one important factor.

Canada was still the dominant hockey nation in the world, producing as much talent as it ever had.

The results are quite clear, the talent pool for the NHL started to change in the 70's and matured somewhat to where it is today sometime in the 90's.

so the notion that the talent pool hasn't changed for the NHL simply is just that, a notion, an idea, a belief.

The fact of the matter is the reality of the NHL talent pool has changed significantly in the last 40 years.

A white russian was consumed during the writing of this post as per the OP (if it applied, even if it didn't it sure was enjoyable).

Since you are interested in facts only Rollie Melanson is Canadian, from New Brunswick.

You seem to confuse "Market Forces" - WHA and expansion in the 1970s that drove salaries upwards, making hockey a career option with the actual talent pool which did not change.

NCAA graduates started earning more by continuing their hockey career instead of becoming professionals in their field.

Swedish and Finish teams could no longer match or top NA contract offers. Eventually by the 1990s neither could the Soviet Bloc countries.

So you had a redistribution of employment and average careers were significantly extended.

But the actual talent pool did not change.

 

[MXD]

My bad.

I stand corrected on him but the general trend still remains the same.

...And I'm just realizing you probably confused Rollie The Goalie with Ollie The Goalie.

 

[wetcoast]

Since you are interested in facts only Rollie Melanson is Canadian, from New Brunswick.

Funny that you are the 2nd person to point out this mistake, which I acknowledged, but then didn't even attempt to acknowledge my post.

The distraction below is just that a distraction, which I will get to in the end.

You seem to confuse "Market Forces" - WHA and expansion in the 1970s that drove salaries upwards, making hockey a career option with the actual talent pool which did not change.

I'm merely noting that new talent streams were entering the NHL at an elite level, the reasons why simply don't matter

NCAA graduates started earning more by continuing their hockey career instead of becoming professionals in their field.

See above they were entering on an elite level, reasons why are again unimportant.

Swedish and Finish teams could no longer match or top NA contract offers. Eventually by the 1990s neither could the Soviet Bloc countries.

Once again there were absolutely zero elite players from any of these 3 countries before 1972 in the NHL, right?

So you had a redistribution of employment and average careers were significantly extended.

But the actual talent pool did not change.

I wasn't talking about average NHLer's but elite players who made post season all star teams.

There were zero elite players in the NHL from outside of Canada before the early 70's when there was a trickle until the zenith in the 90's with a slight fluctuation from the early 9's onwards.

Even "my mistake" in Rollie came from a very weak Canadian province in terms of producing NHL talent.

New Brunswick seems to be the exception that proves the rule in not providing a ton on NHL talent before expansion and not really much afterwards either.

The 2 coasts of Canada had minimal impact on the NHL talent stream until the 70's, 80's and 90's.

There was a discernible increase of talent from particularly BC in the late 80's and 90's.

Burnaby Joe Sakic(and Crosby from the east coast) was just the first one to be inducted into the top 100, there will be one more from BC at least.

A simple 5 minute research confirms this.

None of your statements contradict my observation of the facts.

 

[wetcoast]

...And I'm just realizing you probably confused Rollie The Goalie with Ollie The Goalie.

Nope he was affectionately known as "Rollie the Goalie" in Vancouver during his 6 years here as a goalie coach.

for some reason I had his nationality mixed up.

Wouldn't be the first time that someone from the west coast thinks some east coasters are foreigners, or "from away".

 

[MXD]

Nope he was affectionately known as "Rollie the Goalie" in Vancouver during his 6 years here as a goalie coach.

for some reason I had his nationality mixed up.

Wouldn't be the first time that someone from the west coast thinks some east coasters are foreigners, or "from away".

The French name (and his clearly Acadian speech) should've made it obvious.
Ollie The Goalie was Olaf Kolzig's nickname.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Funny that you are the 2nd person to point out this mistake, which I acknowledged, but then didn't even attempt to acknowledge my post.

The distraction below is just that a distraction, which I will get to in the end.



I'm merely noting that new talent streams were entering the NHL at an elite level, the reasons why simply don't matter



See above they were entering on an elite level, reasons why are again unimportant.



Once again there were absolutely zero elite players from any of these 3 countries before 1972 in the NHL, right?



I wasn't talking about average NHLer's but elite players who made post season all star teams.

There were zero elite players in the NHL from outside of Canada before the early 70's when there was a trickle until the zenith in the 90's with a slight fluctuation from the early 9's onwards.

Even "my mistake" in Rollie came from a very weak Canadian province in terms of producing NHL talent.

New Brunswick seems to be the exception that proves the rule in not providing a ton on NHL talent before expansion and not really much afterwards either.

The 2 coasts of Canada had minimal impact on the NHL talent stream until the 70's, 80's and 90's.

There was a discernible increase of talent from particularly BC in the late 80's and 90's.

Burnaby Joe Sakic(and Crosby from the east coast) was just the first one to be inducted into the top 100, there will be one more from BC at least.

A simple 5 minute research confirms this.

None of your statements contradict my observation of the facts.

Talent streams that existed for generations do not qualify as new.

New Brunswick and BC were producers of elite Senior players as far back as the 1930s.

Market forces kept most at home where hockey and work income was superior to anything the NHL could offer.

Vast majority of Euros and Americans were never named to All Star teams. They were simply average to filler players.

Even today, you have more Canadians playing overseas - KHL etc, than Russian/Soviet players in the NHL. Origin restrictions apply in the KHL, not in the NHL.

Easily verifiable.

So you just have redistribution of talent that in no way impacts on the project mandate.

 

[sr edler]

The NHL, starting with Salming in 75, started to see a sprinkle of non Canadians on the post season all star teams, something that hadn't been done since Frank Brismark in 48

You'll have to throw around a few letters to get the correct spelling/name. It's Bismarck.

 

[wetcoast]

You'll have to throw around a few letters to get the correct spelling/name. It's Bismarck.

Another white Russian mistake.

 

[wetcoast]

Talent streams that existed for generations do not qualify as new.

New Brunswick and BC were producers of elite Senior players as far back as the 1930s.

Market forces kept most at home where hockey and work income was superior to anything the NHL could offer.

Vast majority of Euros and Americans were never named to All Star teams. They were simply average to filler players.

Even today, you have more Canadians playing overseas - KHL etc, than Russian/Soviet players in the NHL. Origin restrictions apply in the KHL, not in the NHL.

Easily verifiable.

So you just have redistribution of talent that in no way impacts on the project mandate.

Once again you are talking about senior league players and Canadians playing in lesser leagues than the NHL.

I'm talking about elite players and provinces producing elite NHL players.

New Brunswick is the exception that proves the rule. Nova Scotia 2 elite players are in the NHl in the 80s and Crosby.

BC produces Hull, Kariya and Sakic in a space of around 15 years.

Pre expansion zero elite players and only a sprinkling of NHL players period.

So yes that's a huge change.

Ditto Americans and non Canadians something you can't dispute as providing elite NHLers post 70s basically

Where pre expansion none existed in the NHL.

But keep on with the narrative that nothing has changed.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Once again you are talking about senior league players and Canadians playing in lesser leagues than the NHL.

I'm talking about elite players and provinces producing elite NHL players.

New Brunswick is the exception that proves the rule. Nova Scotia 2 elite players are in the NHl in the 80s and Crosby.

BC produces Hull, Kariya and Sakic in a space of around 15 years.

Pre expansion zero elite players and only a sprinkling.

So yes that's a huge change.

Ditto Americans and non Canadians something you can't dispute as providing elite NHLers where pre expansion one existed in the NHL.

You are assuming elite has always been restricted to the NHL.

Very and demonstratably wrong.

Also why are you defining Canadians by province while neglecting to define Americans by state and Euros by city or region? Other than illustrating sloppy methods your distinction serves no purpose.

 

[danincanada]

Just put him on ignore.

Such a lame, waste of time engaging somebody not even involved in this project, and talking about something that has nothing to do with said project.

Unfortunately many (most?) here feel the same way you do. “Let’s compare across the whole span of hockey but let’s pretend the sport hasn’t grown over that span”. Put it on ignore, heh. What is the hypothesis then? Did the talent pool hit a certain level in the early 1900s and flatline all the way until now? No one actually believes that, do they? The way players are compared makes it seem that way and maybe if someone not involved in the project says there’s something wrong you should listen and check to see if they are correct. Lots of group think here so it may help improve things.

It absolutely needs to be discussed and putting it on ignore takes away from the project. I don’t care if people agree with me on how much things have changed over time, I just want to see it discussed. It’s too slippery a slope for most. As if admitting it’s tougher to stand out in 1990 than 1920 is an injustice to 1920 players. It’s a reality so let’s discuss how much and how much it matters when ranking players. Everyone will still have their own take so the discussion doesn’t need to be ignored or shut right down. Anyone who claims to be a “hockey historian” should be interested in talking about it in depth and noting the differences in eras.

 

[danincanada]

I'm merely noting that new talent streams were entering the NHL at an elite level, the reasons why simply don't matter.

Exactly, and this has been pointed out to him numerous times over the years but he keeps going to it. It's very telling and smells of desperation to avoid what's really being said. Does anyone really believe the NHL and hockey in general didn't benefit from having sources other than Canada produce elite talent? We're all hockey fans here so why stick your head in the sand when it comes to this? I'm a proud Canadian but I like the fact that other nations provide elite talent for my entertainment and it has definitely improved and increased the amount of talent in the NHL. There's no hiding from this fact.