Post-Game Talk: HNIC: Best team in hockey history vs Cup Champs

[sycamore]

Tough start to the season, first 5 games against playoff teams from last year. I’d be surprised if any other team had this tough of a schedule. Time to start feasting on the bottom feeders. NYR, you’re up.

Toronto might very well be the best team in the East this year, once Tavares starts to gel with the team.

 

[txpd]

I wonder if anyone here realizes than when Niskanen and Orpik were signed. Orpik was the shutdown guy and Niskanen was more of an offensive defence man. Niskanen has improved defensively and turned into a very solid 2way dman. I would never really call him a shutdown guy.

Since you know so much you should know that the league has changed in that time. The set piece defensive defenseman like Orpik or Alzner is a specialist and no longer primary shutdown. The increase in speed has turned mobile players like niskanen into shutdown defenders. You know this.

 

[maacoshark]

Since you know so much you should know that the league has changed in that time. The set piece defensive defenseman like Orpik or Alzner is a specialist and no longer primary shutdown. The increase in speed has turned mobile players like niskanen into shutdown defenders. You know this.

I know the game has changed. The league is moving to more mobile dmen that can move the puck. No offense but Niskanen isnt really a mobile dman in today's game and he is average moving the puck which could be why he is struggling so much. Ive always felt Niskanen was a product of the system Trotz used. It wasnt his individual play.
For the record Ive never said Niskanen is a terrible dman. He isnt playing well this year. I did say he was an above average dman in the NHL. Maybe that statement was inaccurate.

 

[txpd]

I know the game has changed. The league is moving to more mobile dmen that can move the puck. No offense but Niskanen isnt really a mobile dman in today's game and he is average moving the puck which could be why he is struggling so much. Ive always felt Niskanen was a product of the system Trotz used. It wasnt his individual play.
For the record Ive never said Niskanen is a terrible dman. He isnt playing well this year. I did say he was an above average dman in the NHL. Maybe that statement was inaccurate.

You always felt? There is plenty of evidence that Reirden's coaching has improved his game far beyond your ability to absorb it.

 

[maacoshark]

You always felt? There is plenty of evidence that Reirden's coaching has improved his game far beyond your ability to absorb it.

I think its more the system than has ability. Is that too far fetched?
You just can't accept that he may not be as good as you think. What is it about Niskanen that you love so much? You sure seem to get wound up when I say something negative about him. And then you will try to use a plus/ minus stat of his that doesnt really holed water. Everyone knows its a weak stat. Have you ever thought his plus/ minus stat has been slightly inflated because he was on the ice for a fair amount of empty net goals. He is usually on the ice in those situations. On the reserve side Carlson is always on the ice when we give up an empty net goal.
I dont understand the praise for Niskanen.

 

[g00n]

LOL empty net goal factor again. Did you see the stats I posted last time you leaned on that?

Can you specify why you think Niskanen is "average" in terms of skillset instead of just saying he's not very good?

 

[txpd]

I think its more the system than has ability. Is that too far fetched?
You just can't accept that he may not be as good as you think. What is it about Niskanen that you love so much? You sure seem to get wound up when I say something negative about him. And then you will try to use a plus/ minus stat of his that doesnt really holed water. Everyone knows its a weak stat. Have you ever thought his plus/ minus stat has been slightly inflated because he was on the ice for a fair amount of empty net goals. He is usually on the ice in those situations. On the reserve side Carlson is always on the ice when we give up an empty net goal.
I dont understand the praise for Niskanen.

Yes, yes. You think. You don't understand. As a rule when everyone tells you something and you don't believe it, you are list and they aren't. Evidence. MacLellan, Reirden, 25mins, Cup.

 

[twabby]

Niskanen is good because despite his pretty heavy defensive deployment against good competition his relative shots against, expected goals against, and actual goals against per 60 are amongst the best in the NHL since he’s been in the league.

And he was their most heavily used 5v5 defenseman last postseason where when it mattered most the Capitals were able to tighten up defensively.

It’s fair to think that maybe Niskanen’s best days could be behind him due to his age. But the vendetta you have against him, with no actual evidence to support any claims you have against him, is complete garbage. Everyone knows I have offered up unpopular opinions in the past but I’d at least try to support those claims with some form of evidence (often times unsuccessfully). With you and Niskanen it’s just “he’s not good because I say so.”

 

[maacoshark]

Yes, yes. You think. You don't understand. As a rule when everyone tells you something and you don't believe it, you are list and they aren't. Evidence. MacLellan, Reirden, 25mins, Cup.

You didnt answer my question. What is it that you love about Niskanen?
I have another question. What makes you think that Niskanen wasnt a product of the system?
Unlike you. I am not a homer hockey fan. I call it the way I see it. If a player isnt playing to his abilities, I will point it out no matter who the player us. We have a lot of players under performing.
I'm not sure about the system but it quite often it looks more like 5 individuals on the ice rather than a team.

 

[Chokingdogs]

Hmmmm...Matt Niskanen-revolutionary D-man or overrated hack?

 

[maacoshark]

Niskanen is good because despite his pretty heavy defensive deployment against good competition his relative shots against, expected goals against, and actual goals against per 60 are amongst the best in the NHL since he’s been in the league.

And he was their most heavily used 5v5 defenseman last postseason where when it mattered most the Capitals were able to tighten up defensively.

It’s fair to think that maybe Niskanen’s best days could be behind him due to his age. But the vendetta you have against him, with no actual evidence to support any claims you have against him, is complete garbage. Everyone knows I have offered up unpopular opinions in the past but I’d at least try to support those claims with some form of evidence (often times unsuccessfully). With you and Niskanen it’s just “he’s not good because I say so.”

Thought I'd point out that Reirden was trying to match Carlson with Matthews lastnight and he did a good job holding him in check. Matthews line did however score against the other 2 pairings.
CAN YOU GUYS NOT READ? Ive never said Niskanen wasnt good. I said he is a good 2way defence man. I said he is better than average. I also said that his decline in play may be because of the game changing. Wtf do you guys want me to say? Do you want me to flat out lie and say he is a great dman? That isnt going to happen.
All the Niskanen lovers are more stubborn than I am.

 

[txpd]

You didnt answer my question. What is it that you love about Niskanen?
I have another question. What makes you think that Niskanen wasnt a product of the system?

1. +61. Twabs wrote all the fancy stats, but it's the same. He plays against the best offensive players in the league and his team dominates. He does this playing as the lead player in his pair.

2. Every player is a product of the system to a degree. Do you think Ov ever scored 50 with Dale Hunter? I am confident that any old 3-4 defenseman would be nearly as good in Niskanen's roll.

 

[maacoshark]

1. +61. Twabs wrote all the fancy stats, but it's the same. He plays against the best offensive players in the league and his team dominates. He does this playing as the lead player in his pair.

2. Every player is a product of the system to a degree. Do you think Ov ever scored 50 with Dale Hunter? I am confident that any old 3-4 defenseman would be nearly as good in Niskanen's roll.

Can you not read? Carlson was matched up against Matthews most if the night and held him in check. It was the other 2 pairings that allowed that line to score. He does not always play against the top players.
You still refuse to answer the question. BTW I think it is becoming very apparent that our success on defence was the system. Last season Reirden was given complete control of the defence and we went from first defensively to 17th. This season we are 24th so far. And the pairing of Niskanen and Orlov has been by far our worst. This looks very much like he is a product of the system.

 

[Langway]

Ahh the greatest hits...

1.) Drunk Matt Niskanen
2.) Wimpy Christian Djoos
3.) Incompetent Todd Reirden
4.) Wrong People On the Internet

 

[Sam Spade]

I wonder if anyone here realizes than when Niskanen and Orpik were signed. Orpik was the shutdown guy and Niskanen was more of an offensive defence man. Niskanen has improved defensively and turned into a very solid 2way dman. I would never really call him a shutdown guy.

I hate to get in this thing that is going on but maaco you do know that there are about seven actual "shutdown" Dmen in the entire NHL right?

Doughty
Suter
Peitrangelo
Vlasic
Josi
Ellis
Hedman
And maybe Seth Jones. That's it.

There are some fine D pairs out there, like Niskanen and Orlov, when they are on, but actual shutdown guys are an extreme rarity.

 

[traparatus]

Ahh the greatest hits...

1.) Drunk Matt Niskanen
2.) Wimpy Christian Djoos
3.) Incompetent Todd Reirden
4.) Wrong People On the Internet

That one is my favorite. Why do people who are wrong post wrong things about things they are wrong about? Can't them guys read?!

That was one hell of a dull game. Early season hockey is sure rough on the senses. For example,I know for sure that Oshie is capable of accepting a pass without the puck bouncing off of his stick like a tennis ball. You wouldn't guess just by watching these first few games.

Oh, well. Onward and upward. Filthy goal by Kuznetsov, good game for DSP. Might want to keep an eye on that Matthews guy. He might be capable of putting the puck in the net.

 

[maacoshark]

I hate to get in this thing that is going on but maaco you do know that there are about seven actual "shutdown" Dmen in the entire NHL right?

Doughty
Suter
Peitrangelo
Vlasic
Josi
Ellis
Hedman
And maybe Seth Jones. That's it.

There are some fine D pairs out there, like Niskanen and Orlov, when they are on, but actual shutdown guys are an extreme rarity.

There are probably more than 7. There are plenty of dmen out there that are better defensively than anyone we have. You mentioned Ellis as a shutdown guy. I think of Ekholm better defensively.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Ok guys, please move on from the whole Niskanen thing. I think both sides have made their point pretty clear.

 

[txpd]

Can you not read? Carlson was matched up against Matthews most if the night and held him in check. It was the other 2 pairings that allowed that line to score. He does not always play against the top players.
You still refuse to answer the question. BTW I think it is becoming very apparent that our success on defence was the system. Last season Reirden was given complete control of the defence and we went from first defensively to 17th. This season we are 24th so far. And the pairing of Niskanen and Orlov has been by far our worst. This looks very much like he is a product of the system.

Last night is one game. Was Carlson also matched against Tavares?

Ok...you believe that the players on defense and goal are nothing special. Its the system. Most of us disageree. Lets move on. I was an idiot to even have engaged on this crap. Its my fault.

 

[TaroTsujimoto]

I thought Connolly looked good. Almost looks like he is ready to have a breakout season at age 26.

 

[Sam Spade]

There are probably more than 7. There are plenty of dmen out there that are better defensively than anyone we have. You mentioned Ellis as a shutdown guy. I think of Ekholm better defensively.

Of course there are. But it is a partnership, and our top two d-pairs just won the Stanley Cup.

Also if there are shutdown guys that I didn't list tell me who they are, because you said "shutdown" guys and those guys are few and far between in this league.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I thought Connolly looked good. Almost looks like he is ready to have a breakout season at age 26.

LOL. He missed about 5 shots. Shouldve scored a few times. He was a big part of why they were in a tie game in the 3rd period.

 

[maacoshark]

Of course there are. But it is a partnership, and our top two d-pairs just won the Stanley Cup.

Also if there are shutdown guys that I didn't list tell me who they are, because you said "shutdown" guys and those guys are few and far between in this league.

Let's stop using the Stanley Cup as an excuse.

 

[Calicaps]

Let's stop using the Stanley Cup as an excuse.

This is ridiculous. Winning a Cup changes how players are perceived all the time. It's not an excuse. It's an achievement, the hardest in sports, and it counts when evaluating players.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Let's stop using the Stanley Cup as an excuse.

Yeah, its almost like they shouldnt have won it. Team would be a lot better off right now, if it werent for that damned Cup they are using as an excuse.

LOL. I kid, I kid.