Post-Game Talk: His name is Al Montoya, he beat the Pens, prepare to cry

[canadianguy77]

Have you not looked at Kunitz's advanced stats? If JR was to "Moneyball" him, then he'd be signing him to an extension, not getting rid of him at all costs.

Pretty sure the dude is actively trying to improve his advanced stats by just firing the puck on net with no real intention of scoring and no one close enough to even get to a rebound. It truly is pathetic to watch.

 

[pistolpete11]

Pretty sure the dude is actively trying to improve his advanced stats by just firing the puck on net with no real intention of scoring and no one close enough to even get to a rebound. It truly is pathetic to watch.

That may be true, but his shot suppression stats are pretty good, too. That’s the problem with using ‘Moneyball’ in hockey though. Most of the ‘advanced’ hockey statistics aren’t very good or only tell a part of the story.

Regardless, the anti-Kunitz crowd shouldn’t be wishing for JR to use advanced stats with Kunitz.

 

[IcedCapp]

That may be true, but his shot suppression stats are pretty good, too. That’s the problem with using ‘Moneyball’ in hockey though. Most of the ‘advanced’ hockey statistics aren’t very good or only tell a part of the story.

Regardless, the anti-Kunitz crowd shouldn’t be wishing for JR to use advanced stats with Kunitz.

I think the term moneyball is being used here to refer to trading a player so that a coach can no longer use him, not so much the advanced stats of a player

 

[AquaticBirdman]

Injury excuses are horse ****. Every team is missing some key players
Panthers played without Barkov(#1C), Hurricanes without Falk(#1D), Rangers without McDonagh(#1D) and Nash(#1W)

Pens' bottom six is garbage no way around it and Kessel is just bad

It's more than an excuse this time around, it's a pretty clear FACT. Half of our forward roster is comprised of AHL callups, none of whom are exactly blue chip prospects that will really contribute much in the way of secondary scoring. Combine that with the fact that we're missing Geno, and I'd say the impact that injuries are having on this team are pretty monumental.

I like how the Pens are playing right now. They're tenacious, getting pucks (and bodies) to the net, and they're showing immense resilience in 3rd periods when trailing, which is something we haven't seen from them in YEARS. However, there's only so much we can rely on Sid to carry the bulk of this offense. Unless our secondary scoring manages to pick it up a little we're not gonna be doing better than scraping out 2-1 wins....

 

[AjaxTelamon]

That's an entirely different issue though. Kessel needing to score more and Shero drafting horribly when it comes to forwards isn't mutually exclusive.

As for the Kuznetsov example in Washington, they're also getting huge contributions from their veteran off-season acquisitions in Oshie and Williams. Those guys are producing similar to Kessel, despite the fact neither of them were supposed to be able to produce like Kessel. If Oshie and Williams were producing at about half their career rates, would Washington be doing as well? A big part of the reason they're doing so well is because Oshie and Williams are actually producing at expected rates, not producing sub par results like Kessel is.

Well yeah, both are issues, but my point is that if you have one working, then you don't need to have the other. If all our superstars were living up to or exceeding their deals, then not having any goals from young guys would not be an issue. But reality dictates that your stars are going to get hurt or be playing poorly during stretches.

So blaming Phil under-achieving as some kind of primary issue with this team isn't very realistic or accurate. Washington has an incredible record because they're getting tremendous production from their kids AND their vets are all healthy, and mostly playing up to their standards. Will that last? I wouldn't bet on it, their injury luck could turn around. And ours could too.

Really doesn't matter. I like what Horny brings, but the Kessel acquisition was what made Neal's loss palatable to me because it filled the critical "one shot scorer" role. So far, Kessel's done nothing but cost a lot more and score a lot less.

I'd have rather kept Neal and looked for a complementary grunt elsewhere if this is what we can expect moving forward.

The trouble is you can't just take Neal's good aspect (his 21 goals) and not get everything else. You also get his laziness, terrible defense, his selfish stupid penalties (59 PIM's for a guy who doesn't fight is awful), and all his other assorted nonsense like flopping after getting hit by a goaltender and being told to go F yourself by the ref and getting an embellishment call. Might as well get Downie back if you want a guy who's in the box a minute a game on reputation calls and for being a goofball.



I mean, who else generates a page of results when you google their name and embellishment? Phil has 6 PIM's this year.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I think the term moneyball is being used here to refer to trading a player so that a coach can no longer use him, not so much the advanced stats of a player

This scene:

 

[pistolpete11]

I think the term moneyball is being used here to refer to trading a player so that a coach can no longer use him, not so much the advanced stats of a player

Well then that’s a ****** use of the term Moneyball is almost entirely about using advanced statistics.

 

[IcedCapp]

Well then that’s a ****** use of the term Moneyball is almost entirely about using advanced statistics.

It's from the movie. Someone post it, I can't remember the title. "You're killing this team"? I dunno

 

[Jaded-Fan]

It's from the movie. Someone post it, I can't remember the title. "You're killing this team"? I dunno

Heh, you finally came to your senses and blocked me I see.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Well yeah, both are issues, but my point is that if you have one working, then you don't need to have the other. If all our superstars were living up to or exceeding their deals, then not having any goals from young guys would not be an issue. But reality dictates that your stars are going to get hurt or be playing poorly during stretches.

So blaming Phil under-achieving as some kind of primary issue with this team isn't very realistic or accurate. Washington has an incredible record because they're getting tremendous production from their kids AND their vets are all healthy, and mostly playing up to their standards. Will that last? I wouldn't bet on it, their injury luck could turn around. And ours could too.

Not sure where you're getting the bolded from. The discussion I've been involved in is about Kessel's production, and how that compares to expectations, as well as whether said expectations were realistic or not. Nowhere did I say him struggling is some kind of primary issue with the team, as if him scoring would suddenly make everything else alright.

Of course there are other issues with this club. The guy playing alongside Crosby is one of such issues, as is the aforementioned lack of talent on ELC contracts thanks to Shero's horrible drafting of forwards over close to a decade in Pittsburgh. But those weren't really the focus of the discussion I was having that involved Kessel.

 

[#66]

To be honest you're not going to get much better for that price. That's not praise for Kunitz, that's just the league.

Sad but true. If Bennett scored 15 goals... He would be handed 4.5 in a heartbeat.

 

[IcedCapp]

Well then that’s a ****** use of the term Moneyball is almost entirely about using advanced statistics.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The trouble is you can't just take Neal's good aspect (his 21 goals) and not get everything else. You also get his laziness, terrible defense, his selfish stupid penalties (59 PIM's for a guy who doesn't fight is awful), and all his other assorted nonsense like flopping after getting hit by a goaltender and being told to go F yourself by the ref and getting an embellishment call. Might as well get Downie back if you want a guy who's in the box a minute a game on reputation calls and for being a goofball.

I mean, who else generates a page of results when you google their name and embellishment? Phil has 6 PIM's this year.

Except Kessel's every bit as lazy and terrible defensively, if not moreso. And while Neal gets more than his share of dumb penalties, he at least engages in battles.

Kessel's 6 minutes in penalties really aren't a badge of honour. He doesn't avoid penalties because he's playing clean, hard hockey, he avoids penalties because he avoids anything approaching contact, which obviously has it's own downside, particularly when he's not scoring like he should.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

LOL that Neal clip...it's stuff like that which makes me not miss him at all.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

LOL that Neal clip...it's stuff like that which makes me not miss him at all.

Remember these? :

 

[Gurglesons]

He's still right in context. Kunitz would be the type of player that the As would pick up. He has good advanced stats, he is making a low cap hit and he probably could be had for a very little.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Remember these? :

Kessel can do the same if this team ever figured out how to use him.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Kessel can do the same if this team ever figured out how to use him.

Given how much trouble Kessel has shooting the puck from a standstill, I sincerely doubt it.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

If they trade Kessel they'll just get another winger who will perform below expectations for all of us to whine about. Since the middle of last season the Penguins have seen a handful of world class wingers play like absolute dog ****.

The Penguins are clearly an incompetent organization and I have to think so many great players failing spectacularly in Pittsburgh is part of the reason why. Why don't they try Kessel with Sid again? Why do they keep trying to feed Kessel one timers when it's clear that he sucks at one timers?

Here's how the Penguins should use Kessel: Play him with Sid or Geno and try to get Phil the puck in the neutral zone with speed. If they can't do that, they should try give and go's in the offensive zone to create space so Kessel can use both his shot and playmaking ability.

How they actually use Kessel: you suck at one timers? Well, we'll just keeping feeding you one timers until you become good at it.

I never once saw the Leafs utilize Kessel the way the Penguins have. Going all the way back to the Iggy trade, it's like this organization is obsessed with mis-using supremely talented players. If the Bruins, Leafs and Team USA have all gotten results out of Kessel then why can't the Pens?

 

[#66]

Kessel can do the same if this team ever figured out how to use him.

No... He would be hiding along the boards or rush his shot because theres a shadow looming.

Ill take positionally sound and lazy over scared any day of the week. Toss in some cheap shots to Flyers and its not even a question.

 

[Malkin112*]

Remember these? :

Good god I miss Neal

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

You know how people often only remember the good times when thinking about their exes? People talking about departed players that used to play here remind me of that.

Yeah Neal was a sniper in every sense of the word and he was a big help. He also took penalties whenever he felt like it and disappeared in the playoffs often, because it required him to actually get off his ass and work to create space. If we reversed that trade everyone would be singing the blues about how "Hornqvist may have scored less, but he has 1000x more heart than Real Deal. That's what we need on this team."

Long story short, every season is going to be either wishing we had Neal back or gushing over Hornqvist depending on how they perform in a given year. Everyone loved the trade last year. Make up your mind.

 

[plaidchuck]

I like Horns but I still dont like the trade from an assets point of view. They got spaling whose contract ballooned after arbitration which screwed them at the end of last year.

Plus every game horns is opposite of Kunitz is just a waste imo.

 

[Gold Diamond]

Say what you want about Kunitz (and you can say a LOT), but he's the sole reason we got a point last game.

If that were any other player on the team doing that, you guys would be bowing in worship of said player.

That doesn't excuse him for all the other crap he does all game long, but that was an epic move and snipe.

 

[Shady Machine]

Say what you want about Kunitz (and you can say a LOT), but he's the sole reason we got a point last game.

If that were any other player on the team doing that, you guys would be bowing in worship of said player.

That doesn't excuse him for all the other crap he does all game long, but that was an epic move and snipe.

"bowing in worship" for scoring a goal in a hockey game?