Hindsight is 20/20, were these the right decisions?

[thewave]

OP was 100% correct. Hindsight is 20/20. All the coulda, woulda, shoulda opinions mean diddly now.

Yes, and you can look at dozens of failed rebuilds and study why they went wrong. It's usually because of stuff like this, luckily we are early on and we can recover from large asset loses with luck or good UFA signings as well as free wallets or damn good drafting.

Been around long enough to know when owners start pushing for PO teams too fast or start meddling. Pretty sure with the big money losses Rogers took the first few years of their contract, some pressure to make it all happen now was on.

 

[nsleaf]

Yes, and you can look at dozens of failed rebuilds and study why they went wrong. It's usually because of stuff like this, luckily we are early on and we can recover from large asset loses with luck or good UFA signings as well as free wallets or damn good drafting.

Been around long enough to know when owners start pushing for PO teams too fast or start meddling. Pretty sure with the big money losses Rogers took the first few years of their contract, some pressure to make it all happen now was on.

And there will be setbacks, and heaven forbid it just may not pan out as fans hope no matter what is opined on HF Boards/Leafs. Can you imagine the reaction if they, say for example get to the SCF only to lose in 7 or worse, get swept.

 

[thewave]

And there will be setbacks, and heaven forbid it just may not pan out as fans hope no matter what is opined on HF Boards/Leafs. Can you imagine the reaction if they, say for example get to the SCF only to lose in 7 or worse, get swept.

I am just saying don't get your hopes up for a 5 year cup parade. A lot has to go right for that to happen and there is nothing suggesting that we will overpower some of the current juggernauts overnight.

I am pretty level in my expectations. I just watch what they do and form opinions which I share with the lot of you

 

[Trapper]

And there will be setbacks, and heaven forbid it just may not pan out as fans hope no matter what is opined on HF Boards/Leafs. Can you imagine the reaction if they, say for example get to the SCF only to lose in 7 or worse, get swept.

I'd be more concerned about the reaction if this team missed the playoffs next year like Tampa did the year before.

 

[Iapyi]

The Marleau acquisition was brilliant and was exactly what we needed at that exact time.

 

[nsleaf]

I'd be more concerned about the reaction if this team missed the playoffs next year like Tampa did the year before.

Reactions of posters don't really " concern" me. But if that happens the reaction on here will be epic and at the end of the day, very entertaining.

 

[thewave]

Reactions of posters don't really " concern" me. But if that happens the reaction on here will be epic and at the end of the day, very entertaining.

Good owners want to win. Stavros was a good owner and it's to bad his other business forced him to sell. Teachers plan just listened to Larry T who reportedly has always meddled with terrible results. Rogers wanted to create some crazy Canada wide hockey network and it's pretty good but they paid way to much and are in a position where they need to make up the losses... You can expect in a money driven world, they don't want to eat those loses.

 

[m1ker]

So sell off everyone before the playoffs, get swept first round, send the message to the kids they are not good enough, gain no experience but hatred towards management

Keep our guys. Make a serious run for the cup, let the youth believe they can win and go through all the emotions and experiences of a playoff run, identify where we need upgrades and which ufas we need to keep

Option 1 doesn’t make sense to me

 

[thewave]

So sell off everyone before the playoffs, get swept first round, send the message to the kids they are not good enough, gain no experience but hatred towards management

Keep our guys. Make a serious run for the cup, let the youth believe they can win and go through all the emotions and experiences of a playoff run, identify where we need upgrades and which ufas we need to keep

Option 1 doesn’t make sense to me

I don't think JVR and Bozak would have us being swept. Funny comment, comparable to... If we played mcbackup we would have swept them!

 

[ShaneFalco]

So sell off everyone before the playoffs, get swept first round, send the message to the kids they are not good enough, gain no experience but hatred towards management

Keep our guys. Make a serious run for the cup, let the youth believe they can win and go through all the emotions and experiences of a playoff run, identify where we need upgrades and which ufas we need to keep

Option 1 doesn’t make sense to me

It wasn’t even close to a serious run
I think the playoffs emphasized they have a ways to go

 

[Iapyi]

The Doom and Gloom Impatient Fan can whine and cry and pretend they know it all as much as they want. They are a big reason this organization was so poopy for a couple of decades.

I have confidence the current management team will stick to the plan and not cave in to that fan types unwillingness to pay our dues.

 

[highslot]

I think what Boston did was put Toronto in their place, despite what most Leaf fans (and management?) believed Toronto is still a rebuilding team. With that said let us look back on these decisions,

Marleau (3yr contract ending 2019-20 @ 6.25m/yr) - There is no doubt Toronto paid extra for his experience but was his experience worth sitting Leivo the entire year or not being able to call up a Marlie?

2nd Round Draft picks - Boyle and Plekanec, each costing Toronto a 2nd round pick and both were unable to move the needle, even in the slightest. Dermott, Grundstrom, Korshkov are to name a very few 2nd round picks Toronto have made

Keeping JVR/Bozak/Komarov: I have no idea what value Toronto would have gotten for these players, but it certainly is going to be more when these players walk (I'm of the opinion of letting them walk. I would be interested in Bozak playing 4C and 4C money).

yes. need vets with speed. too many 2nd years and rookies. leivo should have slotting in for komorov. johnnson and kaps forced their way into the line up.

no. loved boyle, so i don't regret that gamble too much, but it was a waste unless we were ready to contend.

no. plekanec is no boyle and plays a different role. if babcock used him diff in the beginning, i might have changed my mind.

many leaf fans like myself were calling to trade any of jvr/bozak/kom. i like kom but didn't expect him to have such a drop off. even 3rd rounders would have been fine but bozak and jvr would have at least got a 2nd. i don't understand why letting them go for free is better than getting draft picks for them, with basically the same playoff results.

 

[highslot]

1. We are not a rebuilding team. Our roster was good enough for us to be contenders, but Babcock is a bad coach and didn't have us playing to our potential for a number of reasons.

2. Marleau contract was good because the alternative is just to have un-used cap space which would have probably just gone to waste. Leivo didn't have to miss the entire year. Martin could have gotten a rest, Komarov could have gotten a rest. Plenty of opportunities to rotate him into the lineup even with Marleau.

3. I think the 2nd round picks (Boyle and Plekanec) were a mistake. We should have either made more significant upgrades, or trade off JVR and don't sign anyone. I didn't like the middle of the road approach. Either go for it, or accumulate more assets and take your chances with young players.

when all are best players are under 23, we are a rebuilding team imo. babcock made some key errors, but he won olympic gold and a cup. he's not a bad coach, even if he's no sullivan or cooper. he's top 5 in the league imo.

2. i agree.

3. i agree and agreed with more assets because i feel were weren't contenders yet. yr3. of a rebuild.

 

[Trapper]

when all are best players are under 23, we are a rebuilding team imo. babcock made some key errors, but he won olympic gold and a cup. he's not a bad coach, even if he's no sullivan or cooper. he's top 5 in the league imo.

2. i agree.

3. i agree and agreed with more assets because i feel were weren't contenders yet. yr3. of a rebuild.

Drafting Matthews/Nylander/Marner isn't the end and now boom we are contenders, it's only the beginning.
A fact that seems to be missed.
Every team worth anything in the NHL has a Matthews/Nylander/Marner in some capacity. It's highly, highly unlikely that any of the 16 teams that make the playoffs don't have a trio. Even some teams that miss the playoffs have it.

We are at the next stage and it involves solid asset management and development.
You need a team of players to compliment and have your back. Skilled in todays NHL with the ability to play in all zones and win puck battles. Not be specialists only. We need to be drafting and developing players like Debrusk, Point, Fabbro, another Dermott, etc. These players aren't the Matthews of the world but they aren't the Hymans (example) either. Once you start tapping into the depth (bye JVR,Bozak,Plek,Moore,Komarov,Gardiner UFA) who is the depth of the depth?

 

[highslot]

we are off to a good start with kap, johnnson, grundstrom, brown

and liljegren, bracco, tima, korshov, alt or brooks up next.

i like rasanen, joshua as well.

woll, scott for goaltending. they just need time to play.

 

[highslot]

Good owners want to win. Stavros was a good owner and it's to bad his other business forced him to sell. Teachers plan just listened to Larry T who reportedly has always meddled with terrible results. Rogers wanted to create some crazy Canada wide hockey network and it's pretty good but they paid way to much and are in a position where they need to make up the losses... You can expect in a money driven world, they don't want to eat those loses.

it was actually peddie.

 

[Mess]

In the 2016-17 playoffs the Leafs gave up 18 goals against in 6 games [3.0 GAA/g] and lost in the 1st round to the President trophy Caps in a 1 vs 8 matchup.

In the 2017-18 playoffs the Leafs gave up 28 goals against in 7 games [4.0 GAA/g] and lost in the 1st round to a team only slightly ahead of them in the standings.

In a league where good defense wins and poor defense loses Leafs in hindsight got less competitive, with more experience by youth and off-season moves in a failed attempt to get better.

Retrospectively now with 20/20 hindsight hopefully management can get the team moving in the right direction defensively to increase Cup competitiveness going forward.

 

[thewave]

it was actually peddie.

Peddie came in 1998, he didn't do anything really really bad while Stavros was in. Past 2001 or so the mistakes started to happen. Larry was apparently pushing for this and that along the way but not while Stavros had control. Stavros sold in 02 I believe. He had 3 conference finals in about 10 yrs, not bad, not a cup but the right track.

 

[Trapper]

It wasn’t even close to a serious run
I think the playoffs emphasized they have a ways to go

That and build a team that contends on a yearly basis. We want to be in for the long haul.
It's taken Washington 10 + years to get to the 3rd round. What did people have planned if that's us.
At least you can look back at that one time we had JVR then. Whatever makes you happy.

 

[ShaneFalco]

That and build a team that contends on a yearly basis. We want to be in for the long haul.
It's taken Washington 10 + years to get to the 3rd round. What did people have planned if that's us.
At least you can look back at that one time we had JVR then. Whatever makes you happy.

Look at SJ too

 

[highslot]

Peddie came in 1998, he didn't do anything really really bad while Stavros was in. Past 2001 or so the mistakes started to happen. Larry was apparently pushing for this and that along the way but not while Stavros had control. Stavros sold in 02 I believe. He had 3 conference finals in about 10 yrs, not bad, not a cup but the right track.

i'm not sure of toa here, but if i mentioned that i knew people in the locker room at that time, would i have to verify it with proof?

 

[Blanche Blanche]

So sell off everyone before the playoffs, get swept first round, send the message to the kids they are not good enough, gain no experience but hatred towards management

Keep our guys. Make a serious run for the cup, let the youth believe they can win and go through all the emotions and experiences of a playoff run, identify where we need upgrades and which ufas we need to keep

Option 1 doesn’t make sense to me

This pretty much...
Hindsight is telling us that we have massive holes to fix and certain players need to be moved. But Hindsight is always 20/20 for a reason.

How many people were convinced that we can go past Boston and give Tampa a good run and vica versa. Answer : Alot of people including some bigshot analysts.
Majority of people here did, I was one of them, I didn't expect to see Matthews be non existent, and Nylander skating circles. I didn't expect to see October Freddy during the playoffs.

The leafs were very capable of beating Boston with the Talent... Heck, with some luck, we might have even taken it to Tampa... But be lucky again in the CF? and VS the heavy and big west team?
We would've been very exposed.

1st year - Luck...under the radar...Vets not as old who knows but we took it to washington...
This 2nd year was the REAL assessment of our roster and showed glimpses of character for some vets and some young guns.

We're still lookin real good IMO, the young core won't even start peaking until 2-3 years from now, and we should have way better D by then.

 

[Gary Nylund]

So sell off everyone before the playoffs, get swept first round, send the message to the kids they are not good enough, gain no experience but hatred towards management

Keep our guys. Make a serious run for the cup, let the youth believe they can win and go through all the emotions and experiences of a playoff run, identify where we need upgrades and which ufas we need to keep

Option 1 doesn’t make sense to me

One problem with this is that when you keep everyone instead of selling and even buy on top of that and then lose in the 1st round, that sends an even stronger message to the kids that they're not good enough. Selling instead of buying at least would have taken some pressure off and who knows, without that pressure maybe they even beat Boston, we'll never know.

As far as "serious cup run", that was the party line of everyone in favour of not selling. It was always possible with or without JVR but was also always a long shot, are we really still talking about "cup run" as if that was a realistic expectation? It didn't make much sense before, it makes no sense now.

 

[thewave]

i'm not sure of toa here, but if i mentioned that i knew people in the locker room at that time, would i have to verify it with proof?

Probably. I think LTs meddling and demands are documented in either an article(s) or a biography of sorts. Perhaps he was going to Peddie with them and Peddie acting on it. Even players wouldn't really know. I wish I had a link myself but am 99.9% brass came out and said that after.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Now the Leafs might have lost game 7 anyways. But on that Krug's tying goal, the Leafs did not have a centre on the ice when they lost the defensive zone face off. It was 4 on 4.
Babcock's silly line matching actual cost the Leaf games. If Babcock wasn't behind the bench on game day the Leafs would be better. The Leafs have eaten a lot of bad contracts in the past, maybe 32.5m isn't a big price to pay to get rid of Babcock. Leaf owners...Bell and Rogers can just raise our telecom rates if they need the money.