HHOF - Class of 2011

[Jacksonbobson]

In no order
Bure
Lindros
Belfour
Gilmour

 

[connellc]

What are the arguments for keeping Bure out of the HOH again?

IMO a player who was 3 times the leading goal scorer should get in.

One dimensional, no cup, no gold medal, not the best with the fans or media, and his career was cut short due to injuries. In other words, all he could do was score goals. If he had a cup to his resume, it would be hard to leave him out, but all these factors are going to leave him out the hall for better players. Heck, I'd even put Lindros ahead of him.

I certainly think he's close though. He's my all time fav player, but he's got a long line to wait behind before he gets in. I can name at least a dozen players that should go in before him.

 

[KingGallagherXI]

One dimensional, no cup, no gold medal, not the best with the fans or media, and his career was cut short due to injuries. In other wards, all he could do was score goals. If he had a cup to his resume, it would be hard to leave him out, but all these factors are going to leave him out the hall for better players. Heck, I'd even put Lindros ahead of him.

I certainly think he's close though. He's my all time fav player, but he's got a long line to wait behind before he gets in. I can name at least a dozen players that should go in before him.

Again, being 3 times the goal scoring leader should be enough to get in.

Other players who were 3 times or more goal scoring leaders:

Selanne
Brett Hull
Lemieux
Gretzky (5 times)
Esposito (6 times)
Bobby Hull (7 times)
Howe (5 times)
Richard (5 times)
Conacher (5 times)
Dye

In 90 years of NHL, only 10 other players did it.

 

[seventieslord]

Again, being 3 times the goal scoring leader should be enough to get in.

Other players who were 3 times or more goal scoring leaders:

Selanne
Brett Hull
Lemieux
Gretzky (5 times)
Esposito (6 times)
Bobby Hull (7 times)
Howe (5 times)
Richard (5 times)
Conacher (5 times)
Dye

In 90 years of NHL, only 10 other players did it.

You asked for the arguments against him, and those are them.

Bure's resume in areas other than goalscoring pales in comparison to the rest of those players. In addition, his next-best seasons in which he wasn't the league's leading goalscorer are not as impressive as anyone there aside from maybe Conacher.

I would induct him too, because this is the hall of FAME and he's a good enough player. But I wouldn't dream of inducting him before Makarov, Howe, Belfour, Gilmour, Oates, or Lindros.

 

[connellc]

Again, being 3 times the goal scoring leader should be enough to get in.

Other players who were 3 times or more goal scoring leaders:

Selanne
Brett Hull
Lemieux
Gretzky (5 times)
Esposito (6 times)
Bobby Hull (7 times)
Howe (5 times)
Richard (5 times)
Conacher (5 times)
Dye

In 90 years of NHL, only 10 other players did it.

I understand where you're coming from; however, scoring goals isn’t the overall criteria to making it to the hockey hall of fame. Bure's biggest knock against him is longevity. Bure doesn't have this and it's no fault to him but it's a huge knock on his resume. He also couldn't do much else than score to boot i.e. one dimensional. He has no Hart trophies, cups or much international hardware. There are many more factors for being in the hall then leading the league in goals. This isn’t meant to be a knock against him, because he was my favorite player growing up and was one of the better pure goal scorers of his generation.

You have to look at the entire picture man.

 

[RECsGuy*]

Aside from maybe Makarov, Pavel Bure is the most influential player eligible for election to the HHOF.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Aside from maybe Makarov, Pavel Bure is the most influential player eligible for election to the HHOF.

Well, depending on what you mean by "influential," Mark Howe is the reason the nets come off the moorings easily now...

 

[MXD]

Aside from maybe Makarov, Pavel Bure is the most influential player eligible for election to the HHOF.

There's also that guy who was the best NHL D-Men to move to the WHA... Not sure it's a positive, though.

 

[Seanconn*]

I don't think the debate over Bure is "if" he gets in, rather than "how long do we make him wait?", is Mark Howe really not in the HOF?? living up to your dads shadow is one thing, but he was a damned good dman.

 

[seventieslord]

I don't think the debate over Bure is "if" he gets in, rather than "how long do we make him wait?", is Mark Howe really not in the HOF?? living up to your dads shadow is one thing, but he was a damned good dman.

- 3 time norris runner up, it's a joke that he's not in.

- He was +400, but his teams were more or less even without him on the ice.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I disagree on well over half of those. And frankly, you should be ashamed to have included Ted Kennedy, Syd Howe, Sid Abel, Busher Jackson, Johnny Bucyk and Hooley Smith. Those guys are all arguable top-100 players and are in a whole other stratosphere from the rest of the list.

You also have to consider, if Nieuwendyk gets in, which modern unindiucted/borderline players become absolute shoo-ins? Off the top of my head and only including forwards - Gilmour, Oates, Middleton, Fleury, Elias, Alfredsson, Hossa, Bure, Lindros, St. Louis, Recchi, Richards, LeClair, Kariya, Sundin, Modano, Andreychuk, Roenick, Propp, Kovalchuk, Turgeon, Tkachuk, and Brind'Amour are all locks if the bar is lowered to include Nieuwendyk. And I don't think I am going too far with any of those, either. Is the purpose of the hall to recognize that many players from one era?

Comparing his long career to guys like Bailey and Drillon may make it appear curious that he's not in and they are, but they were among the handful of the very best forwards of their generation. Nieuwendyk was not. Comparisons that go that far back in time unfortunately ignore that. With some exceptions, like Duff and Laprade.

To start, I don't think that Joe is going in solely as a player, my response was to a guy who said that it hurt to even consider Joe for the hall and I responded that they are many guys that Joe might be better than or at least in the ball park with.

Joe had an extremely solid 20 year career and was solid through it starting with a with a Calder and ending it 20 years later still scoring at a 30 goal a year clip in the modern NHL (06-07 years with the top 20 goal scorers scoring 35-56 goals in that year).

He never had the peak or MVP or Hart type of seasons like some of the guys listed but comes out ahead in some other areas, longevity being his biggest asset. and it's not like eh was hanging on either.

Just to rephrase he is in the ballpark of these guys IMO

LMAO @ comparing Joe Nieuwendyk favorably to Art Ross winner Busher Jackson and Hart trophy winners Sid Abel and Ted Kennedy.

Oh wait, I forgot. The Hall of Fame should be 50% players who played after 1990, right?

Sure Jackson led the league in points once, at age 21 and was 2nd at age 22 but he only made the top 10 3 other times in the rest of his career.

Kennedy was not deserving of the hart in the year he won it, maybe in other years he was but not in 55 and Abel had serious competition and we are still talking about 06 team league and Joe has them both beat on the longevity factory (at a very high and productive level).

Look I can understand why some guys will value a Hart and Art Ross
winner over a guy who was very productive fro 20 years but never elite but to say that it hurts to think of Joe in the Hall when the guys a I listed are isn't looking at it very objectively IMO.

 

[Hardyvan123]

You asked for the arguments against him, and those are them.

Bure's resume in areas other than goalscoring pales in comparison to the rest of those players. In addition, his next-best seasons in which he wasn't the league's leading goalscorer are not as impressive as anyone there aside from maybe Conacher.

I would induct him too, because this is the hall of FAME and he's a good enough player. But I wouldn't dream of inducting him before Makarov, Howe, Belfour, Gilmour, Oates, or Lindros.

I would agree here and just want to add why Bucyk was on my list.

Up to the age of 34 there was no way he was getting into the hall unless he bought a ticket, his sudden explosion at 35 is due mostly to playing on a line with Phil and Ken and ya there was some other guy named Bobby on that team that helped him inflate his stats.

I understand fully why he is in with the counting stats but seriously when one looks a little deeper it's pretty obvious that he is in the Hall due to the benefit of playing with others not on his own accord.

Joe was a better player overall IMO and that's why I included him on my list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I would agree here and just want to add why Bucyk was on my list.

Up to the age of 34 there was no way he was getting into the hall unless he bought a ticket, his sudden explosion at 35 is due mostly to playing on a line with Phil and Ken and ya there was some other guy named Bobby on that team that helped him inflate his stats.

I understand fully why he is in with the counting stats but seriously when one looks a little deeper it's pretty obvious that he is in the Hall due to the benefit of playing with others not on his own accord.

Joe was a better player overall IMO and that's why I included him on my list.

It's strange to me that you discount Johnny Bucyk, who is one of the most famous players ever for high-end longevity, while at the same time praising Joe N in the previous post based on his longevity.

For what its worth, Bucyk was 3 times top 10 in points and was selected for 5 all-star games before he was 34. I agree that he's a guy who is in the Hall mostly based on longevity, but then... his peak was still better than Joe N's even without Orr.

 

[Seanconn*]

look at the WHA experience How had though. playing with his dad. scoring 107 as a defensemen in the WHA even, is a HUGE accomplishment. Not his fault he picked the WHA.. which was a pretty deadly league.

Pavel Bure has a more explosive career, but Howe deserves in number 1. His 2 80 point seasons...scoring that many points, and keeping a good +/- in that NHL is impressive.

 

[overpass]

Up to the age of 34 there was no way he was getting into the hall unless he bought a ticket, his sudden explosion at 35 is due mostly to playing on a line with Phil and Ken and ya there was some other guy named Bobby on that team that helped him inflate his stats.

Bucyk's "explosion" took place almost entirely on the power play. He went from being the best player on a terrible power play to being the third best player on one of the best power plays ever, and his power play points went through the roof. His even strength scoring didn't rise at all. (BTW, was he on a line with Phil and Ken? I thought that was Wayne Cashman.)

So yeah, the talent around him (especially Bobby and Phil) helped boost his numbers in the 1970s, but he would have had better scoring numbers in the 1960s with better teammates.

look at the WHA experience How had though. playing with his dad. scoring 107 as a defensemen in the WHA even, is a HUGE accomplishment. Not his fault he picked the WHA.. which was a pretty deadly league.

Kind of a funny thing to say, but in Howe's case I agree. How can you blame an 18 year old for choosing to play in the league where he can play on a line with his legendary father? And yet it's kept him out of the HHOF.

 

[seventieslord]

look at the WHA experience How had though.

Who are you disagreeing with here?

oh, and Howe was not a defenseman in the WHA.

 

[Seanconn*]

Who are you disagreeing with here?

oh, and Howe was not a defenseman in the WHA.

**** really, not at all? that makes his transistion to defence in the NHL even more epic

 

[Merya]

What are the arguments for keeping Bure out of the HOH again?

IMO a player who was 3 times the leading goal scorer should get in.

My humble objection would be that there are better Russian/soviet players not in yet.
Makarov should definitely get in asap. It's a disgrace he's not in.
Petrov, Mikhailov, Kasatonov, Krutov, Vasiliev, Ragulin and few others could also fit in better. Would be nice if the HHoF would recognize few more of the people who were responsible for the Soviet rise in hockey.

ps. Viktor Tikhonov should get in

 

[Canadiens1958]

Clarifications

Bucyk's "explosion" took place almost entirely on the power play. He went from being the best player on a terrible power play to being the third best player on one of the best power plays ever, and his power play points went through the roof. His even strength scoring didn't rise at all. (BTW, was he on a line with Phil and Ken? I thought that was Wayne Cashman.)

So yeah, the talent around him (especially Bobby and Phil) helped boost his numbers in the 1970s, but he would have had better scoring numbers in the 1960s with better teammates.



Kind of a funny thing to say, but in Howe's case I agree. How can you blame an 18 year old for choosing to play in the league where he can play on a line with his legendary father? And yet it's kept him out of the HHOF.

Bucyk had powerplay time with Esposito but the Esposito line 5 on 5 was Cashman/Esposito/Hodge.

Additional factors influenced Mark Howe's decision to play in the WHA. He had suffered a knee injury so the financial aspect was large. Risk of re-injury was the same playing junior on the cheap or WHA with a significant contract was the same. Coming into the NHL as a draft pick of an expansion or bottom team was not attractive.

 

[Big Phil]

I believe a mistake occurred last yr with confusion over the voting process this why so many woman got in lats yr first shot i think they will be shut out this time around.

If I recall, the women are a separate part of the voting process over the men right? I mean I'm like anyone else around here I realize they have to induct a woman here and there to remind us that this type of hockey exists in the world but I was under the impression that it didn't affect the amount of men inducted since they were seperate.

 

[Big Phil]

It's strange to me that you discount Johnny Bucyk, who is one of the most famous players ever for high-end longevity, while at the same time praising Joe N in the previous post based on his longevity.

For what its worth, Bucyk was 3 times top 10 in points and was selected for 5 all-star games before he was 34. I agree that he's a guy who is in the Hall mostly based on longevity, but then... his peak was still better than Joe N's even without Orr.

You also forgot to mention that Bucyk was part of the "Uke" line in the late 1950s that was very arguably the best line in the NHL for a couple of years. He did have an impact back then. And keep in mind while we all know the LW position is historically weak there was a time in the 1960s when no one was getting the all-star spots other than Hull and Mahovlich or even late 1950s (Moore).

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

If I recall, the women are a separate part of the voting process over the men right? I mean I'm like anyone else around here I realize they have to induct a woman here and there to remind us that this type of hockey exists in the world but I was under the impression that it didn't affect the amount of men inducted since they were seperate.

Yes, this is correct. The number of women inducted has no effect on the number of men inducted.

 

[Merya]

Yes, this is correct. The number of women inducted has no effect on the number of men inducted.

As it should be. Woman will run 100m slower than a man, I have no probs with that, as long as you appreaciate both mens and womens gold medalist the same.
I've read some really disgusting comments about last years HHoF inductions, and I hope this will end it. Yes the best ever woman hockey player deserves to be in the HHoF more than your teams favorite dude who quite doesnt make it. It's Hockey Hall of Fame. It's not Mens Hockey Hall of Fame, neither is it National Hockey League Hockey Hall of Fame. (tho that is what it practically is currently).
Sergej Makarov and Viktor Tikhonov should be inducted asap to keep the HHoF at least some illusion of being other than Canada Hall of Fame.

 

[Merya]

But I wouldn't dream of inducting him before Makarov, Howe, Belfour, Gilmour, Oates, or Lindros.

Lindros and Gilmour are kinda in the Bure level. Emotional choices. Gilmour was never even near the best player in the league in his career so no HHoF for him. As for Lindros, he's in the hall of might've been. Lindros will never get in the HHoF.
Bure was the best at cherrypicking goals for couple seasons, while another, better player scored a bit less goals and learned how to not let turnovers make it 3 on 2. This better player is a lock for HHoF, and Bure will never get in. Period.

 

[seventieslord]

Gilmour was never even near the best player in the league in his career so no HHoF for him.

Where were you from 1992-1994?

I posted this a year ago but it's still true:

Fact: 52 players have been top-5 in Hart voting three+ times and are eligible for the hall or are shoo-ins for the hall. 51 of them (98%) are in the hall or will be.
Fact: of the 25 highest scorers of all-time, 22 of them (88%) are in the hall or will be.
Fact: 100% of players top-5 in playoff scoring 4+ times are in the hall, except Gilmour.
Fact: 19 of the top-20 playoff scorers of all-time (95%) are in the hall or will be.
Fact: 64 of 69 players to be top-10 in assists 5+ times (93%) are in the hall or will be.