Heeeeere comes expansion! - Part II

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gstommylee

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Jan 31, 2012
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great post. :) can i ask, are most folks in seattle following this? is the nhl a close or distant second choice as far as most people in town would like to see? would an nhl (first) team increase the chances of an nba team following? in other words, how much does the nba desire factor in to this bid process, from the owner/bidder or even the city's perspective, or would they all be ignoring that altogether?

i would imagine bidders will have letters of support from their mayors/cities as part of their bids. due diligence by the city could get interesting there.

Some feel actually getting the arena built for a NHL team will eventually lead to getting the NBA back. One issue with Sodo arena, that it's on our time frame that the NBA should give the team back not on NBA's time frame. Getting the arena built for just hockey, allows the NBA to give us the team back on their time frame.
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
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Some feel actually getting the arena built for a NHL team will eventually lead to getting the NBA back. One issue with Sodo arena, that it's on our time frame that the NBA should give the team back not on NBA's time frame. Getting the arena built for just hockey, allows the NBA to give us the team back on their time frame.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
 

gstommylee

Registered User
Jan 31, 2012
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

What i am saying is I think NBA does want to see a team back in Seattle, however, they are their own timeline on when that will happen. The issue is with sodo arena, we want a team back on our timeline not theirs.

If Tukwila arena gets built or sodo arena built on a NHL first plan, it allows the NBA to follow on their own timeline on getting a team back in seattle. It still a question of does NBA perfer sodo or Tukwila like wise with the NHL. If they want sodo then the issue is how does NBA get us a team back within the window of the sodo arena plan. Eventually sodo arena will expire even if there is an agreement to extend it a few more years or not.
 

psowrc

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Feb 21, 2015
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Because it may not be a good idea to put an NHL expansion team there?





NHL demands can be unreasonable, and basically a money grab. They wash their hands clean of any responsibility to ensure viability. In fact, it took the NHLPA's push to increase revenue sharing.



One super rich owner who is 71 years old. What if there isn't another one who believes in the NHL in Vegas after Foley dies?


Several cities do.



It may be possible. I don't know. I have some concerns, but Battle Born and others have presented a good case. In considering all these things, one would have ranked cities like Atlanta and Phoenix ahead of Vegas, so we can see how screwing up the ownership side, or even arena location can have deleterious effects.

Foley isn't buying this team as a 71 year old man with loose change found in his sofa. This is a LLC that is determined to bring a team to Vegas.
 

tank44

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Feb 1, 2012
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Seattle, WA
Here's some info on the arena readiness for the last 4 expansion teams I pulled up on wikipedia.

NSH, CLB, ATL & MIN were all awarded franchises in June 1997 and the 4 teams entered the league in a staggered expansion to accommodate new arenas for 3 of the new teams. 2 of these teams even waited a full year after the team was granted until they had their arena deals worked out completely - so there is a recent precedent for Seattle, Toronto2 or other wild card cities.

Nashville was the only city with an arena built so they started in 1998. This was just after they tried to lure the Devils to town in 95. Nashville also had to prove support by getting 12,000 season tickets in 9 months.

Atlanta waited for its arena to be ready for when they started playing in 99. Phillips Arena broke ground after the old Omni arena was imploded in July 97 at the same site; it opened in Sept 99.

Columbus waited 3 years to start playing in 2000. Columbus did not have an areana. The voters of Columbus were considering a referendum to build a publicly financed arena, a major step toward approval of their NHL bid. Bettman visited Columbus to meet with the community's leaders about the franchise proposal, there was concern that the voters might not pass the needed referendum. The civic leaders told Bettman that they would not be willing to foot the bill for the team if the referendum failed. In May 97, the referendum failed but at the end of the month Nationwide came to the plate to offer the $150M for the arena. The city was granted a team the next month; the arena broke ground in May 98 and opened in 2000.

Minnesota started in 2000 as well. The State of Minnesota adopted legislation in April, 1998 to loan $65 million to the City of St. Paul to fund 50% of the estimated $130 million project costs for the Xcel Energy Center in St. Paul. It broke ground in June 98 and opened in Sept 2000.
 

Fugu

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Foley isn't buying this team as a 71 year old man with loose change found in his sofa. This is a LLC that is determined to bring a team to Vegas.

Foley and the Maloofs are buying the team. He'll be 73 when the team is ready to go. Who buys his share in a few years?
 

Acesolid

The Illusive Bettman
Sep 21, 2010
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Foley and the Maloofs are buying the team. He'll be 73 when the team is ready to go. Who buys his share in a few years?

Hum... Fugu. I think the guy knows his health better then we do.

Also, I find your agism pretty freaking offensive. I mean, I think some fat 40 year old morbidly obese billionaire would be a lot more likely to die tomorrow then Foley.

Also, I (or Pierre-Karl Peladeau, or Steve Balmer, or anyone) could get run over by a drunk driver any day. Does it mean we should never do anything?

Seriously, the agism in today's society is freaking ridiculous. Older people ought to be able to live their lives without a lot of people acting like they'll drop dead without warning in the next few minutes!
 

Fugu

RIP Barb
Nov 26, 2004
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Hum... Fugu. I think the guy knows his health better then we do.

Also, I find your agism pretty freaking offensive. I mean, I think some fat 40 year old morbidly obese billionaire would be a lot more likely to die tomorrow then Foley.

Also, I (or Pierre-Karl Peladeau, or Steve Balmer, or anyone) could get run over by a drunk driver any day. Does it mean we should never do anything?

Seriously, the agism in today's society is freaking ridiculous. Older people ought to be able to live their lives without a lot of people acting like they'll drop dead without warning in the next few minutes!

Oh please. Ageism? You're truly reaching now.

I posted this elsewhere, but Karmanos is the SAME age as Foley. You know what Karmanos is doing? He's trying to find a buyer who will take over within five years. Why? His age. It's called succession planning.


So you missed the point entirely. You think having an owner and an arena is the single most important consideration. I don't. I believe in something called market potential, and that the market potential has to fit in with the strategic vision and plan a league SHOULD have. From what I can tell of the NHL, they seem to be after another cash grab. Pretty simple. The problems that could arise with newly established franchises aren't something we don't understand or haven't seen played out numerous times. It behooves them to set whomever they allow into the club for success and viability, not to just take the money and run.
 

Brodie

HACK THE BONE! HACK THE BONE!
Mar 19, 2009
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This is somewhat true, but if you consider the turnover in the NHL (I really don't know the other leagues), say over the past two decades, most teams have sold at least once.

Which ones have not? Detroit, Boston, Chicago, LA (95), Philadelphia..... NYI, NYR & Carolina? Can't remember their last sale dates. Colorado has been somewhat stable in that time period.

If your statement is true, most of those other owners should not have cashed in, and they should have hung on to the franchises for far longer than they did.

In the NHL's case, not every owner has the financial wherewithal to keep up with the rising tide. The NHL is inflicted with an endless supply of want to be owners who are not rich enough to actually own pro sports teams. They are not lucrative ventures even for the most successful franchises, so a guy with a net worth of under a billion is unlikely to be able to play at the big boys table for long.
 

NucksRuleYep

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Feb 19, 2013
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Here are pedictions I see for the future of the NHL. Some are bold, some not so bold.

- Las Vegas and Seattle are awarded franchises for the 2017/18 season.

- Things keep going downhill for Arizona and they begin looking to move. They are granted to green light to move, as long as they move to a non-eastern time zone and the league approves the party. Two options are mentioned: Houston and Kansas City, but neither city has a perfect bid. Then, out of no where, a wealthy business man assembles an ownership group in Saskatchewan and makes a bid to the NHL. He asks the NHL to give him the Arizona Coyotes for 1 year on a trial basis. His promise? They will: #1) Sell out every single game for the 2016.17 season, and #2) Pre-sell all season tickets for the 2017.18 season (assuming the NHL grants full status to sell the team). The season goes well, and the Arizona Coyotes permanently move to Saskatoon.

- The Florida Panthers continue their struggles, and the Tampa Bay lightning are taking all the fans in the State of Florida. Realizing that the state does not need two teams, the struggling Florida Panthers ownership is given the green light to move/sell the team, however, it cannot be moved to Hamilton without paying huge royalties to the Toronto Maple Leafs. Therefore, the team is moved to Quebec for the start of the 2019/20 season.

- The league will expand the regular season from 82 games to 84 games to make a perfect 4/3/2 game setup.

So in 2019, your league will look like this (I HOPE!!!)

WESTERN CONFERENCE

Pacific:
- Vancouver
- Calgary
- Edmonton
- Seattle
- Las Vegas
- San Jose
- Los Angeles
- Anaheim

Central:
- Saskatchewan
- Winnipeg
- Colorado
- Dallas
- Minnesota
- Chicago
- St Louis
- Nashville

EASTERN CONFERENCE

Atlantic
- Montreal
- Quebec
- Toronto
- Ottawa
- Boston
- Buffalo
- Detroit
- Tampa Bay

Metropolitan
(Same as now)
 

Mike Jones

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Apr 12, 2007
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Then, out of no where, a wealthy business man assembles an ownership group in Saskatchewan and makes a bid to the NHL. He asks the NHL to give him the Arizona Coyotes for 1 year on a trial basis. His promise? They will: #1) Sell out every single game for the 2016.17 season, and #2) Pre-sell all season tickets for the 2017.18 season (assuming the NHL grants full status to sell the team). The season goes well, and the Arizona Coyotes permanently move to Saskatoon.

Saskatoon? It's fun to think about but there's no way it's going to happen. There's no way the NHL has any interest in a healthy and potentially viable Canadian market.

As I've said elsewhere, From what I've read of their interest in Vegas it's obvious Gary and his minions would rather pound sand in the desert.
 

GuelphStormer

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Mar 20, 2012
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Saskatoon? It's fun to think about but there's no way it's going to happen. There's no way the NHL has any interest in a healthy and potentially viable Canadian market.

As I've said elsewhere, From what I've read of their interest in Vegas it's obvious Gary and his minions would rather pound sand in the desert.
it's become increasingly clear that Bettman views all revenue streams within all markets and adds them up to derive a total market revenue value. clearly, hamilton for example, would dwarf gate revenues of phoenix, and vegas. no question whatsoever about that. so, why does he insist on keeping/putting teams in the desert? answer: he sees other, non-gate, revenues streams. national, television broadcast content and market coverage seems to be the primary revenue stream here. (it is also the revenue stream that seems to underscore interest in the seattle market as well. gate in seattle will be middling at best.)

the presumption is that placing franchises in markets where people will come to watch games on TV, and that is the driving force here. it is based entirely on the premise that NBC (or whatever media company bids for the new US contract) will pay the NHL more if it includes content from/to viewers in these markets.

im not sure I buy this premise.

clearly, TV viewership in Phoenix and Atlanta are/were abysmal. lost gate revenues (compared to any reasonable Canadian location) are then hoped to be made up by television revenues. but that has simply not been the case. and it is reasonable to assume that NBC (or whoever) would not pay that much more for the national contract whether Phoenix or Altanta were in the mix. neither market does/would generate additional broadcast revenues.

the real question is whether teams in vegas or seattle would be sufficient attraction to NBC (or whoever) to pay the NHL much more for those broadcast rights. assuming that a team in Hamilton would net gate revenues of $25M more each and every year, over and above what Seattle or Vegas would generate ... and that gets tossed into the HRR pot ... that means that non-gate revenues in those US markets would have to match or exceed Hamilton by that same amount to gross the same total. frankly, im not convinced that NBC (or whoever) is willing to pay that much more, over and above what it would otherwise have paid, just to have content/viewers from those markets.

in other words, i doubt that teams in seattle and or vegas would help net greater overall HRR compared to teams in Canadian, gate-crazy, markets like Hamilton. which suggests that this may be more than just money for Bettman.
 

Jeffrey93

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Nov 7, 2007
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Saskatoon? It's fun to think about but there's no way it's going to happen. There's no way the NHL has any interest in a healthy and potentially viable Canadian market.

As I've said elsewhere, From what I've read of their interest in Vegas it's obvious Gary and his minions would rather pound sand in the desert.

It would be funny to see a city of 222,000 thrive in the NHL and outdo markets that are 10x their size. I can't see it happening though....if the Blues had moved there back in the day maybe Saskatoon would be like the Packers in the NFL but it's not going to happen these days.
 

Mike Jones

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Apr 12, 2007
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Calgary
It would be funny to see a city of 222,000 thrive in the NHL and outdo markets that are 10x their size. I can't see it happening though....if the Blues had moved there back in the day maybe Saskatoon would be like the Packers in the NFL but it's not going to happen these days.

Plus the fact that people in Saskatoon are too smart to pay $500 Million for a hockey team.
 

MNNumbers

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I disagree with the poster above about revenues.

It's obvious to me that Bettman and the owners view the most important thing to be.. "How can we get more money in OUR pockets?"

In that light, how much the local market might support the team is not as important, except for one thing, "The local owner has got to be able to support his own losses, because we don't want to own the team collectively."

Thus, it's not important that Québec or Hamilton would increase revenues.

No, it's important that they pay 500M to join the club.

It's important to stay in markets like Phoenix if possible, on the CHANCE, that in the future that brings more media revenue. If a local owner can be found to eat the losses, they will stay.

It's important to stay in Phoenix, if possible, because moving looks bad and therefore decreases franchise values.

And so on....
 

Mike Jones

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Calgary
It's important to stay in Phoenix, if possible, because moving looks bad and therefore decreases franchise values.

Yeah - the move from Atlanta to Winnipeg was such a disaster...

The league should get smart and just go with Hamilton and QC and figure things out from there.

Oh and put a team in KC. The Scouts thing really should get another chance.
 

MNNumbers

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Yeah - the move from Atlanta to Winnipeg was such a disaster...

The league should get smart and just go with Hamilton and QC and figure things out from there.

Oh and put a team in KC. The Scouts thing really should get another chance.

I don't think you have an argument with me. I'm just telling you about how I think Bettman and the owners think.

I think the Coyote should move to Quebec this week.
 

KCjetsfan

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Jul 14, 2012
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Yeah - the move from Atlanta to Winnipeg was such a disaster...

The league should get smart and just go with Hamilton and QC and figure things out from there.

Oh and put a team in KC. The Scouts thing really should get another chance.

A team here in KC would barely last 3 seasons even if there was interested ownership.
 

Jeffrey93

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Nov 7, 2007
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I disagree with the poster above about revenues.

It's obvious to me that Bettman and the owners view the most important thing to be.. "How can we get more money in OUR pockets?"

In that light, how much the local market might support the team is not as important, except for one thing, "The local owner has got to be able to support his own losses, because we don't want to own the team collectively."

Thus, it's not important that Québec or Hamilton would increase revenues.

No, it's important that they pay 500M to join the club.

It's important to stay in markets like Phoenix if possible, on the CHANCE, that in the future that brings more media revenue. If a local owner can be found to eat the losses, they will stay.

It's important to stay in Phoenix, if possible, because moving looks bad and therefore decreases franchise values.

And so on....

Teams getting the negative attention Phoenix has look much worse than relocating a team.

Franchise values will increase if the league can boast that all their teams profit nicely. 30, 32 or 34 teams all making money and having soldout, or nearly soldout, arenas every night makes the league successful and look successful. That generates more interest from media than a franchise that loses $30M a year, can't draw flies and no real interest in owning it.

I think it's better to not be in a large market like Phoenix...than be in a large market like Phoenix and be failing. As far as appearances go, which would effect investor's confidence in the league, all being in Phoenix is doing is showing that the league can't thrive in a large market like that.

Phoenix, Atlanta, Miami....why advertise that you can't make a go of it in these markets? If I want a loan from the bank I'd be more likely to get money from them by telling them how successful my business will be....than showing them how my business is already failing. I think I'd be more likely to pay $500M for a franchise in Las Vegas, Houston, KC, Seattle, etc. if I didn't have the Coyotes debacle to look at as what could potentially happen to me. Sure, it could happen regardless...but I'd rather not see a team currently in that situation when I'm deciding if I should invest in the league or not.
 

Mike Jones

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Apr 12, 2007
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Calgary
I'm just telling you about how I think Bettman and the owners think.

I appreciate that. I just find their mindset frustrating. There are 3-4 cities in Canada that would provide solid lucrative markets for the NHL and they intentionally avoid those areas - except when they can score $500 million per that is.
 

Mike Jones

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Apr 12, 2007
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Calgary
Teams getting the negative attention Phoenix has look much worse than relocating a team.

Franchise values will increase if the league can boast that all their teams profit nicely. 30, 32 or 34 teams all making money and having soldout, or nearly soldout, arenas every night makes the league successful and look successful. That generates more interest from media than a franchise that loses $30M a year, can't draw flies and no real interest in owning it.

I think it's better to not be in a large market like Phoenix...than be in a large market like Phoenix and be failing. As far as appearances go, which would effect investor's confidence in the league, all being in Phoenix is doing is showing that the league can't thrive in a large market like that.

Phoenix, Atlanta, Miami....why advertise that you can't make a go of it in these markets? If I want a loan from the bank I'd be more likely to get money from them by telling them how successful my business will be....than showing them how my business is already failing. I think I'd be more likely to pay $500M for a franchise in Las Vegas, Houston, KC, Seattle, etc. if I didn't have the Coyotes debacle to look at as what could potentially happen to me. Sure, it could happen regardless...but I'd rather not see a team currently in that situation when I'm deciding if I should invest in the league or not.

Thank you for this. I agree with what you say here.
 

MarkhamNHL

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Sep 22, 2012
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I don't think you have an argument with me. I'm just telling you about how I think Bettman and the owners think.

I think the Coyote should move to Quebec this week.

Please stop with the myths....
the Coyotes were goners until the CoG gave into the blackmail and ponied up 25 million to keep the team at the last minute.. the NHL twice did this...

enough with the BS that the NHL cares about Phoenix or not moving teams... they will only keep teams where someone is willing to pay for it. if not, it's gone without blinking
 

MNNumbers

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Teams getting the negative attention Phoenix has look much worse than relocating a team.

Franchise values will increase if the league can boast that all their teams profit nicely. 30, 32 or 34 teams all making money and having soldout, or nearly soldout, arenas every night makes the league successful and look successful. That generates more interest from media than a franchise that loses $30M a year, can't draw flies and no real interest in owning it.

I think it's better to not be in a large market like Phoenix...than be in a large market like Phoenix and be failing. As far as appearances go, which would effect investor's confidence in the league, all being in Phoenix is doing is showing that the league can't thrive in a large market like that.

Phoenix, Atlanta, Miami....why advertise that you can't make a go of it in these markets? If I want a loan from the bank I'd be more likely to get money from them by telling them how successful my business will be....than showing them how my business is already failing. I think I'd be more likely to pay $500M for a franchise in Las Vegas, Houston, KC, Seattle, etc. if I didn't have the Coyotes debacle to look at as what could potentially happen to me. Sure, it could happen regardless...but I'd rather not see a team currently in that situation when I'm deciding if I should invest in the league or not.

Again, I don't disagree. Rather, i am trying to describe what I think to be Bettman's reasoning and that of the BOG.

I personally think they have a system that needs overhauling, because of the revenue disparity between Toronto/Rangers/Montreal/Boston and Nashville/Tampa/Glendale.

It can't work long term without more revenue sharing. That why the big national media contact is so important to them. But that is not going to appear.

So, they should move Glendale to Quebec. Then, sit down with Foley for a long talk about the future of that City of it gets a team. Then, sit down with Bartozek and/or Coleman the same way. In both cases, they should talk about promotion of the game and the team AHEAD of its arrival in the market. Then, they stood all sit down together and talk about how to share more revenue so the lower revenue teams don't get squeezed by the CBA.

But I don't think they are savvy enough to figure that out.
 
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