Heeeeere comes expansion! - Part II

[Jeffrey93]

There would been upgrades to key arena to get it to at least beable to host NHL matches on the temporary basis. The fact that the ice rink is off center is exactly why can't host NHL team long term.

Islander is playing at barclays arena from what images i seen off that arena in hockey configuration that has to be in my opinion worse than Key arena. Half a dozen markets? The only other market i could think of is Portland. Vegas and Quebec would be getting expansions and would Paul Allen & NHL group pay more for the team than a seattle group?

Yes....Key would be the same as Barclays but not new. So pretty bad. You're talking about upgrades to Key? Aren't we talking about an immediate move (like next week or month) from Glendale?

Half a dozen....off the top of my head...if I was the NHL and had to immediately relocate the Coyotes I would put these markets ahead of Seattle:

Quebec City
Las Vegas
Hamilton
Portland
Kansas City
Houston
Cleveland
Hartford
Milwaukee
Atlanta

Got to 10....Milwaukee, Hartford & Atlanta would be long shots....but they have better suited arenas than Seattle. And they could use those arenas longer term without worrying about if a new arena would ever get built in Seattle.

I might be missing a couple too....

 

[BattleBorn]

Goodness no, Im not telling you that. Anythings possible MNN. That situation in Arizona could indeed go absolutely Nuclear within.... yep, 2 weeks. The NHL has been noticeably quiet to date on this file but for sure their sending down the Big Guns. Id say the odds are remote that at this late date they'd pull the pin, my guess being they just play it out through the courts over the next 12 months then amscray to QC..... as yes, I think Quebec was a backup in 2013 & that they have been promised a team. This whole Expansion process PKP is engaged in merely window dressing. QC has the inside lane, already lapped everybody else on the track about 3X's only no one knows about it.



How do you figure that?

4 X 500,000 = 2 Billion
2 X 500,000 = 1 Billion

Assume the Coyotes sell for $300M, the league slapping on a $200M Relo Fee "just because". How does that work? Not 3 years ago the Thrashers sold for $110M with a $60M Relo Fee. Winnipeg supposedly worth $170M. A city about the same size as Quebec. But ok, lets play.... assume Viola does sell. He's gunna want $500M. ALL $500M. Whats the league going to do about that? Franchises are worth $500M apparently, so why should he take a $200M haircut?.. but even if he did, and lets say sold to Houston for $300M, and the owners down there agreed to pay a $200M Relo Fee, $300M the NHL will never see that they couldve gotten in a one time Expansion Fee. If they ding Quebec for $200M on top of the $300M they'll need to get for the Coyotes, and that $300M all gone to creditors btw, then all they see is $200M split between 29 teams rather than the full unencumbered $500M Expansion Fee they claim their asking for in the here & now. A figure I think is grossly inflated & over priced but thats another issue again.

Good points. All my logic is still based on a two team expansion. That's where my numbers were coming from. Never thought of a current owner wanting all 500MM, and I think I'm pretty good with this business stuff and that had literally never occurred to me.

 

[MarkhamNHL]

500m is irrelevant. Does NHL want downtown proper (seattle) or be in the suburbs? That's the question.

they don't care, they want 500 million. if only one offer for 500 million thats the one they will take
no offers for 500+, they won't take any
more than one offer of 500 million+, they will take the highest bidder

anything will be conditional on a guarantee of a new arena anyways
no guarantee.. no team.. period

 

[MarkhamNHL]

IF another team is going into the GTHA....the NHL has voted and decided that.

lmao where did you read that ?
MOD

as for chicago, bad example... hockey is the least ranked of the big 4, they have 2 MLB teams tho, and they are both in the city.
milwaukee isn't getting a team either, hell they may lose the bucks as it is.

 

[gstommylee]

Yes....Key would be the same as Barclays but not new. So pretty bad. You're talking about upgrades to Key? Aren't we talking about an immediate move (like next week or month) from Glendale?

Half a dozen....off the top of my head...if I was the NHL and had to immediately relocate the Coyotes I would put these markets ahead of Seattle:

Quebec City
Las Vegas
Hamilton
Portland
Kansas City
Houston
Cleveland
Hartford
Milwaukee
Atlanta

Got to 10....Milwaukee, Hartford & Atlanta would be long shots....but they have better suited arenas than Seattle. And they could use those arenas longer term without worrying about if a new arena would ever get built in Seattle.

I might be missing a couple too....

Milwaukee has an arena issue which new proposed arena may or may not be able to host a hockey team. Hartford has no approved arena plan and Atlanta had their arena owner kick out the thrashers.

Realistically, there is only two options with Vegas and Quebec getting expansions. Portland or Seattle.

 

[gstommylee]

they don't care, they want 500 million. if only one offer for 500 million thats the one they will take
no offers for 500+, they won't take any
more than one offer of 500 million+, they will take the highest bidder

anything will be conditional on a guarantee of a new arena anyways
no guarantee.. no team.. period

NHL cares about where the team is going to play at as if its possible they rather be in Seattle proper than in the suburbs. The question that the NHL should be asking Coleman is how certain is he able to get that NHL first deal done with Hansen and SCC. If they feel that Coleman is unable to get a NHL first deal done and arena built under the deadline that NHL will place, the team will be going to Ray b and Tukwila arena.

NHL will be asking Ray B the question of how financially capable is he and his group at building that arena 100% privately while also paying that 500m fee. This is still a huge question mark on Ray B and his Tukwila arena plan.

Its within a realm of possibility that NHL wouldn't be satisfied with both Seattle groups. This is why 500m is irrelevant to the discussion of the Seattle market. Its not about rather or not any of the seattle groups is gonna pay that 500m, its about rather or not an arena for a NHL team will be finalized and built if NHL gives them the team.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Milwaukee has an arena issue which new proposed arena may or may not be able to host a hockey team. Hartford has no approved arena plan and Atlanta had their arena owner kick out the thrashers.

Realistically, there is only two options with Vegas and Quebec getting expansions. Portland or Seattle.

I stated which locations I feel would be better than Seattle currently.

Seattle is currently sitting with no NHL suitable arena. It would be a basketball arena...and an older one...used for hockey. With concrete plans for a new venue.

Every market I listed has that beat. They currently have a better facility and/or will have a better facility soon.

 

[brewski420]

Yes....Key would be the same as Barclays but not new. So pretty bad. You're talking about upgrades to Key? Aren't we talking about an immediate move (like next week or month) from Glendale?

Half a dozen....off the top of my head...if I was the NHL and had to immediately relocate the Coyotes I would put these markets ahead of Seattle:

Quebec City
Las Vegas
Hamilton
Portland
Kansas City
Houston
Cleveland
Hartford
Milwaukee
Atlanta

Got to 10....Milwaukee, Hartford & Atlanta would be long shots....but they have better suited arenas than Seattle. And they could use those arenas longer term without worrying about if a new arena would ever get built in Seattle.

I might be missing a couple too....

Got a pretty good handle on why Seattle is not ready don't you. OK.

 

[Killion]

Good points. All my logic is still based on a two team expansion. That's where my numbers were coming from. Never thought of a current owner wanting all 500MM, and I think I'm pretty good with this business stuff and that had literally never occurred to me.

Yeah, your dealing with a real Hardass, real Hardcase in Vinnie Viola. Ex Marine, Head of the SEC through 9/11... you dont mess with Vinnie. Better dresser than John Gotti & a lot more intimidating. Even has his own little Posse. Hangers on. Odd Job types. Savvy?.... So no, if the Panthers are gunna move, Im thinking Vinnie moves with. Probably Hartford. But if he did decide to sell, youd be looking at minimum $500M and that would include the right to Relocate because Vinnie does just that himself. Moves with the team then sells it to the guy he lined up earlier while still in Sunrise for 500 Extra Extra EXTRA LARGE. To Hell with the NHL & their Relo Fee's. Vinnie's not gunna take a $200M haircut... Now, the boys of IceArizona, they dont have that luxury because as far as Im concerned, conspiracy theory, they dont actually own that team at all. Merely a Dummy Corporation. Front Men. Caretakers for the NHL operating on a shoestring budget. Disinformation Officers selling false hope. The NHL needs to be made whole, pay off its creditors, sunk over $250M into this adventure since 2008. $300M sale price, that money spent before they get it; $200M Relo Fee if they think they can Hoodwink Peladeau or whomever out of $200M & Bobs your Uncle. But... theyve still lost out on the full unencumbered $500M they could have rec'd from a Peladeau or a Foley or whomever in selling via Relo as opposed to Expansion.

 

[MarkhamNHL]

NHL cares about where the team is going to play at as if its possible they rather be in Seattle proper than in the suburbs. The question that the NHL should be asking Coleman is how certain is he able to get that NHL first deal done with Hansen and SCC. If they feel that Coleman is unable to get a NHL first deal done and arena built under the deadline that NHL will place, the team will be going to Ray b and Tukwila arena.

they don't care where the arena is... stop kidding yourself. this is a cash grab for the owners...
they are putting another team in a desert for christ sakes... that alone should tell you something

 

[gstommylee]

they don't care where the arena is... stop kidding yourself. this is a cash grab for the owners...
they are putting another team in a desert for christ sakes... that alone should tell you something

And they have a NHL team in glendale that is having serious $$$ problems. While Tukwila or Bellevue isn't another Glendale, NHL would rather avoid going to Tukwila or Bellevue if they are able to.

If both are willing to pay the 500 and neither are able to get the arena finalized then NHL isn't going to give a team to Coleman or Ray B nevermind the mystery plan in Bellevue.

 

[MarkhamNHL]

And they have a NHL team in glendale that is having serious $$$ problems. While Tukwila or Bellevue isn't another Glendale, NHL would rather avoid going to Tukwila or Bellevue if they are able to.

If both are willing to pay the 500 and neither are able to get the arena finalized then NHL isn't going to give a team to Coleman or Ray B nevermind the mystery plan in Bellevue.

if mystery plan has highest bid over 500 + guaranteed arena... guess who will win ?

 

[gstommylee]

if mystery plan has highest bid over 500 + guaranteed arena... guess who will win ?

why would NHL give Bellevue a team if the arena won't be done in 4 years or more? Let's be realistic here. I consider a Bellevue arena dead on arrival. You would be looking at no early than 2019 when a new arena could open if it ever happens.

 

[brewski420]

I stated which locations I feel would be better than Seattle currently.

Seattle is currently sitting with no NHL suitable arena. It would be a basketball arena...and an older one...used for hockey. With concrete plans for a new venue.

Every market I listed has that beat. They currently have a better facility and/or will have a better facility soon.

I love the word currently!! What the NHL might be thinking about may be a little more long term, don't you think. An maybe Seattle plays out better over the long term In their plans.

But you seem to have the pulse of the NHL and what they need so I defer.

 

[MarkhamNHL]

why would NHL give Bellevue a team if the arena won't be done in 4 years or more? Let's be realistic here. I consider a Bellevue arena dead on arrival. You would be looking at no early than 2019 when a new arena could open if it ever happens.

cause the other owners won't lose money waiting for the arena to be built... but they will earn more by taking the higher bid...

you seem to think the owners aren't about lining their pockets... you must be fairly new to the NHL way of doing business

 

[gstommylee]

cause the other owners won't lose money waiting for the arena to be built... but they will earn more by taking the higher bid...

you seem to think the owners aren't about lining their pockets... you must be fairly new to the NHL way of doing business

Its not always about the $$$ it what NHL sees that makes viable sense for the franchise.

If coleman can get a NHL first deal done with hansen and SCC and only wants to pay 300m for the team, while Ray B is willing to pay 500m. NHL will go with Sodo arena. Long term NHL will make up 200m difference. Downtown proper arena will beat a suburb arena every time.

So by your suggestion if a group form Spokane Washington guarantee the NHL an NHL arena and pays the 500m, then NHL will give Spokane a NHL team. That's the flaw in your argument that its all about the fee.

 

[Jeffrey93]

And they have a NHL team in glendale that is having serious $$$ problems. While Tukwila or Bellevue isn't another Glendale, NHL would rather avoid going to Tukwila or Bellevue if they are able to.

If both are willing to pay the 500 and neither are able to get the arena finalized then NHL isn't going to give a team to Coleman or Ray B nevermind the mystery plan in Bellevue.

Dood....look at what you're saying.

If both parties are able to get the $500M together to bid for an national HOCKEY league expansion team....but aren't able to get an arena finalized....

This is like bidding to host a NASCAR race but when they ask you where the track is your response is "TRACK!?!? There's no track!!"

Ever seen a synchronized high-dive event performed without the pool? Me either...part of me kind of maybe wants to.....but I've never seen it.

I'd LIKE to say I've never seen an NHL franchise awarded with no venue plans....but I have. Again, my dog in the fight got hosed over it. But...this is a different time. No more Cow Palaces....no more Thunder Domes.

You want to get an expansion team? You don't need to build a rink like Quebec City and Las Vegas did....you just need to have all the paperwork signed that you will IF a team is awarded.

This shouldn't be a big deal.....if the local government is concerned that the debt repayment is expected to come from the major tenant....but the deal is conditional on a major tenant....ummmm...is there a problem?

Look...you seem pretty pro-Seattle. I like that. And I hope you continue to be supportive of them for an NHL team.

At the same time.....if you want to PM me the digits of some of these doods that are opting for arena deals in Seattle....I'll be happy to explain to them how professional sports and multipurpose entertainment facilities work.

I might be quite beneficial to them.

 

[gstommylee]

Dood....look at what you're saying.

If both parties are able to get the $500M together to bid for an national HOCKEY league expansion team....but aren't able to get an arena finalized....

This is like bidding to host a NASCAR race but when they ask you where the track is your response is "TRACK!?!? There's no track!!"

Ever seen a synchronized high-dive event performed without the pool? Me either...part of me kind of maybe wants to.....but I've never seen it.

I'd LIKE to say I've never seen an NHL franchise awarded with no venue plans....but I have. Again, my dog in the fight got hosed over it. But...this is a different time. No more Cow Palaces....no more Thunder Domes.

You want to get an expansion team? You don't need to build a rink like Quebec City and Las Vegas did....you just need to have all the paperwork signed that you will IF a team is awarded.

This shouldn't be a big deal.....if the local government is concerned that the debt repayment is expected to come from the major tenant....but the deal is conditional on a major tenant....ummmm...is there a problem?

Look...you seem pretty pro-Seattle. I like that. And I hope you continue to be supportive of them for an NHL team.

At the same time.....if you want to PM me the digits of some of these doods that are opting for arena deals in Seattle....I'll be happy to explain to them how professional sports and multipurpose entertainment facilities work.

I might be quite beneficial to them.

Your missing the argument i am making that its not about how much $$$ NHL can get out of Ray B or coleman or either of the 2 bellevue groups out of a fee.

 

[brewski420]

Dood....look at what you're saying.

If both parties are able to get the $500M together to bid for an national HOCKEY league expansion team....but aren't able to get an arena finalized....

This is like bidding to host a NASCAR race but when they ask you where the track is your response is "TRACK!?!? There's no track!!"

Ever seen a synchronized high-dive event performed without the pool? Me either...part of me kind of maybe wants to.....but I've never seen it.

I'd LIKE to say I've never seen an NHL franchise awarded with no venue plans....but I have. Again, my dog in the fight got hosed over it. But...this is a different time. No more Cow Palaces....no more Thunder Domes.

You want to get an expansion team? You don't need to build a rink like Quebec City and Las Vegas did....you just need to have all the paperwork signed that you will IF a team is awarded.

This shouldn't be a big deal.....if the local government is concerned that the debt repayment is expected to come from the major tenant....but the deal is conditional on a major tenant....ummmm...is there a problem?

Look...you seem pretty pro-Seattle. I like that. And I hope you continue to be supportive of them for an NHL team.

At the same time.....if you want to PM me the digits of some of these doods that are opting for arena deals in Seattle....I'll be happy to explain to them how professional sports and multipurpose entertainment facilities work.

I might be quite beneficial to them.

What the **** is a dood? And who the **** are you to be explaining anything to those actually submitting an application. Give it a rest.

 

[MarkhamNHL]

Its not always about the $$$ it what NHL sees that makes viable sense for the franchise.

If coleman can get a NHL first deal done with hansen and SCC and only wants to pay 300m for the team, while Ray B is willing to pay 500m. NHL will go with Sodo arena. Long term NHL will make up 200m difference. Downtown proper arena will beat a suburb arena every time.

So by your suggestion if a group form Spokane Washington guarantee the NHL an NHL arena and pays the 500m, then NHL will give Spokane a NHL team. That's the flaw in your argument that its all about the fee.

so how exactly do the owners make up the 200 million less they would get for expansion?

 

[gstommylee]

so how exactly do the owners make up the 200 million less they would get for expansion?

There are a few ideas, Coleman pays higher revenue sharing, takes in less national tv $$.

 

[MarkhamNHL]

There are a few ideas, Coleman pays higher revenue sharing, takes in less national tv $$.

oh so thru HRR
i see
uhm.. you probably don't realize this
but HRR is shared with the players
expansion fees aren't

 

[Jeffrey93]

Your missing the argument i am making that its not about how much $$$ NHL can get out of Ray B or coleman or either of the 2 bellevue groups out of a fee.

Ok, I'll bite. What exactly is the purpose of this banter then?

 

[gstommylee]

oh so thru HRR
i see
uhm.. you probably don't realize this
but HRR is shared with the players
expansion fees aren't

I am aware of that.

The National tv deal revenue will have to be split additional 2 times if 2 more teams are added. If Coleman could decide to not take any national TV money for a # of years thus NHL would be splitting the pie 31 times thus more $$ into each of the 31 owners pockets.

 

[gstommylee]

Ok, I'll bite. What exactly is the purpose of this banter then?

That the location of the arena matters more than how much of a fee NHL would get from that group playing in that arena in that location.

Example

Would NHL want to have the team play in Seattle or in Spokane Washington if a group in spokane Washington (other side of the state) is willing to pay that 500m fee.