Hawk fans, what happened to Toews?

[Kshahdoo]

Worth every penny of that his 10.5M contract!

 

[KareemTrustfund]

You would think after literally being the shutdown guy for team canada all of these years that this wouldnt even have to be explained at this point but once again this site manages to defy expectations

You are dancing around the question again. Tell me specifically what he does.

 

[daver]

You are dancing around the question again. Tell me specifically what he does.

I think it's inarguable that he has been the 2nd best forward on Team Canada over the course of their three last tourneys along with being one of the three main catalysts in the three Hawk Cup wins. At his peak, he was among the 2nd tier players behind the Big 3, IMO.

 

[Butch 19]

And I answered in my first post. I didnt broach the contract subject. The idea he's overpaid or not living up to his contract is what I addressed in my next post.

You think we should search out your posts? - and there's an HF contract out there somewhere?

Nice!!

 

[icekoob]

I'm not sure what it is but I've always loved the Toews hate as a Hawks fan. If you're not hated you're not doing it right... people like Gonzo hate winners. Gotta have something to get excited about if your team isnt winning.

Hawks fans have been just as much if not more critical of his play in recent years but he's still a solid player. Overpaid but solid. Once his line gets going I expect a bounce back year. We have Kane and others to produce offensively so I'm content as long as he plays his two way game.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Top line 2-way centre who wins everything...haters gonna hate.

 

[ModryJazyk]

From 2010 to 2015, I had no problem with rating Toews as among the 2nd tier of centres behind Malkin and Crosby and neck and neck with Kane as the Hawks best forward. Since then, Kane has taken off and Toews has dropped into the lower half of the #1Cs in the league.

What is the biggest reason for this?

until 2014 he led the elite scoring line.Since ~ 2014 he's center of top shutdown line while Kaner's 2nd line gets all favours like most o-zone starts, best matchups and best possible offensive dmen support.. If ie Pens visit Chicago, then Toews plays against Crosby and Kane against their 3rd line.... ofc this is not the only reason but quite important one.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

I think it's inarguable that he has been the 2nd best forward on Team Canada over the course of their three last tourneys along with being one of the three main catalysts in the three Hawk Cup wins. At his peak, he was among the 2nd tier players behind the Big 3, IMO.

Peak Toews was probably a top 5 center in league and maybe top 10 player...but his peak only lasted like a season and a half.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I think it's inarguable that he has been the 2nd best forward on Team Canada over the course of their three last tourneys along with being one of the three main catalysts in the three Hawk Cup wins. At his peak, he was among the 2nd tier players behind the Big 3, IMO.

That's definitely arguable....definitely can be a debate that he wasn't the 2nd best forward for the 2014 Olympic tourney and the 2016 WCOH.

 

[GreatGonzo]

until 2014 he led the elite scoring line.Since ~ 2014 he's center of top shutdown line while Kaner's 2nd line gets all favours like most o-zone starts, best matchups and best possible offensive dmen support.. If ie Pens visit Chicago, then Toews plays against Crosby and Kane against their 3rd line.... ofc this is not the only reason but quite important one.

So wouldn't Kane get the opposing teams shut down line while Toews gets the opposing teams top line?....

I don't understand how Kane gets the "easy" match ups when his line has been their best and most productive line the last few seasons. Of course your not going to use your best offensive player as a shut down forward.

 

[jford]

So wouldn't Kane get the opposing teams shut down line while Toews gets the opposing teams top line?....

I don't understand how Kane gets the "easy" match ups when his line has been their best and most productive line the last few seasons. Of course your not going to use your best offensive player as a shut down forward.

According to Corsica, last season Kane's line had the highest TOI% QOC by a bit: Anisimov (29.85); Kane (29.78); Panarin (29.74); Toews (29.7).

In 2015-2016, Toews' line had the highest TOI% QOC by a bit: Toews (29.94); Hossa (29.92); (Ladd 29.78); Panarin (29.61); Anisimov (29.59); Kane (29.53).

This season it's Toews (30.13); Panik (30.09); Saad (30.06); Kane (29.3); and Schmaltz (29.26).

Regarding zone starts, Kane actually has a slightly higher defensive zone start percentage this year than Toews: Kane (36.8) and Toews (36.3). Toews for his career is 40.5 and Kane is 34.4.

 

[GreatGonzo]

According to Corsica, last season Kane's line had the highest TOI% QOC by a bit: Anisimov (29.85); Kane (29.78); Panarin (29.74); Toews (29.7).

In 2015-2016, Toews' line had the highest TOI% QOC by a bit: Toews (29.94); Hossa (29.92); (Ladd 29.78); Panarin (29.61); Anisimov (29.59); Kane (29.53).

This season it's Toews (30.13); Panik (30.09); Saad (30.06); Kane (29.3); and Schmaltz (29.26).

Regarding zone starts, Kane actually has a slightly higher defensive zone start percentage this year than Toews: Kane (36.8) and Toews (36.3). Toews for his career is 40.5 and Kane is 34.4.

I just always found it odd to say that Kane gets the "weaker" match ups. I mean, if your the opposing team, your going to deploy your best shut down guys against the Art Ross winner, not a 55-60 point defensive forward.

 

[Canucks1096]

According to Corsica, last season Kane's line had the highest TOI% QOC by a bit: Anisimov (29.85); Kane (29.78); Panarin (29.74); Toews (29.7).

In 2015-2016, Toews' line had the highest TOI% QOC by a bit: Toews (29.94); Hossa (29.92); (Ladd 29.78); Panarin (29.61); Anisimov (29.59); Kane (29.53).

This season it's Toews (30.13); Panik (30.09); Saad (30.06); Kane (29.3); and Schmaltz (29.26).

Regarding zone starts, Kane actually has a slightly higher defensive zone start percentage this year than Toews: Kane (36.8) and Toews (36.3). Toews for his career is 40.5 and Kane is 34.4.

How do we measure QOC? Just give me a brief summary. Thanks

 

[CokenoPepsi]

He has just 1 goal in his last 13 games if you don't count empty net goals

 

[bambamcam4ever]

That's definitely arguable....definitely can be a debate that he wasn't the 2nd best forward for the 2014 Olympic tourney and the 2016 WCOH.

He was terrible in the 2016 WCOH. In the finals he was setting up Europe for numerous odd man rushes.

 

[Phil68]

Give me a break.
Toews was MVP of the stanley cup playoffs.
He captained 3 cup winning teams.
He's a Selke winner.

The main difference in his numbers between his early 68 point days and recent 58 point days is powerplay production.

I get that fans want more. But if you thought Toews was some super producer, that's on you.

For my money, there aren't many centers I'd take over Toews in a 7 game series.

I think the only issue people have with Toews is,

1. When a player like Toews was valued or perceived to be on the same Level as Malkin or better or Taken over Malkin as top 100 player is where overvaluing players is dangerous.
2. Is Toews good, yes he is. But not a top 100 player. And mind you Toews is not 30. At the rate he is going, Im not sure if he is a lock for hall of fame. 3 cups is not a lock for hall of fame. Selke winner isn't an indicator for being one of the top 5 best player in the league

 

[Nick Hansen]

His hands are as stiff as the stick he is holding nowadays.

 

[JianYang]

Toews racked up a ton of miles earlier in his career with the Hawks going deep in the post season, plus his permanent spot on team Canada. He didn't play easy minutes either. He was always involved in the middle of the ice, and played hard.

The contract was always going to be an issue, but what I see now is a guy who still plays hard, and is a decent player but also a guy who pretty much did all he can do in a dream career.... at like age 26/27. You don't do that by not putting a ton of miles on.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

I think the only issue people have with Toews is,

1. When a player like Toews was valued or perceived to be on the same Level as Malkin or better or Taken over Malkin as top 100 player is where overvaluing players is dangerous.
2. Is Toews good, yes he is. But not a top 100 player. And mind you Toews is not 30. At the rate he is going, Im not sure if he is a lock for hall of fame. 3 cups is not a lock for hall of fame. Selke winner isn't an indicator for being one of the top 5 best player in the league

He is a lock. Sure number wise he probably won't deserve it but the narritive of 3 cups and team Canada is getting him in first chance.

 

[Beau Knows]

He got paid for what he did, not what he is going to do.

He earned the big paycheck by being a big part of 3 Cup wins, and it would have taken an unreal amount of guts for management to not pay up and move on. The result was pretty much inevitable.

Toews will have to deal with the criticism that comes with the salary he's getting, but at the end of the day he did earn it. He made a lot of money for his franchise and now he gets to cash in.

Luckily Kane is still worth every penny of his contract, so I think even with an overpaid Toews (who is still a very good player) they can still compete for the Cup.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

He got paid for what he did, not what he is going to do.

He earned the big paycheck by being a big part of 3 Cup wins, and it would have taken an unreal amount of guts for management to not pay up and move on. The result was pretty much inevitable.

Toews will have to deal with the criticism that comes with the salary he's getting, but at the end of the day he did earn it. He made a lot of money for his franchise and now he gets to cash in.

Luckily Kane is still worth every penny of his contract, so I think even with an overpaid Toews (who is still a very good player) they can still compete for the Cup.

If The Hawks want to compete for the cup they will have to get some depth... They have won before with Toews being subpar...a couple times in fact but not without depth

 

[Plural]

I think the only issue people have with Toews is,

1. When a player like Toews was valued or perceived to be on the same Level as Malkin or better or Taken over Malkin as top 100 player is where overvaluing players is dangerous.
2. Is Toews good, yes he is. But not a top 100 player. And mind you Toews is not 30. At the rate he is going, Im not sure if he is a lock for hall of fame. 3 cups is not a lock for hall of fame. Selke winner isn't an indicator for being one of the top 5 best player in the league

Usually I don't really mind when players get overrated. Sure I might throw a jab at HF boards about it or heckle the fanbase bit on reddit but with Toews the culmination of overrated happened when the NHL made such a big deal about their top-100 list where experts (well there was some questionable names on the blue ribbon) include Toews in the top-100 list BUT LEAVE OUT EVGENI f***ING MALKIN!! I mean, it's fine when we fans or beat writers go overboard with the guys we like, that's sports. But when the league itself hires a bunch of people and promotes the list they come up with including Jonathan Toews and not Malkin, I mean that's just ridiculous. I wouldn't even mind Toews being on the list but if he is there how the hell is one going to even remotely justify Malkin being out.

And we're not talking about list that was thrown together by bunch of Toews fans. We're talking about a list that was touted as a credible insight on the history of the NHL all the way to this day. Yet they manage to include Toews over Malkin? I still can't wrap m head around it. It literally takes about 5 seconds to think the centers from this era who belong. If you get to Toews before Malkin you're incapable of making a credible listing. Period.

For the second part. Wether we like it or not Toews is 100% getting in the Hall. I mean, he wouldn't even be the worst guy in so I don't really feel like harping on that. At his best Toews was legitimate superstar and while his peak was short lived his pedigree as a player and especially as a leader of CHI and (with the help of Sid) TC is undeniable. He might not be the guy I'd pick for the Hall but he's far from being among the worst inductions. And he's 100% getting in the second he's eligible.

 

[daver]

If The Hawks want to compete for the cup they will have to get some depth... They have won before with Toews being subpar...a couple times in fact but not without depth

How was Toews subpar in 2015?

 

[Canucks1096]

How was Toews subpar in 2015?

2010 great first 3 rounds, average in the finals

2013 average in the first 3 rounds. Good in the finals

2015 good to great in the first 3 rounds Average in the finals

In the 2015 most of the top players on both teams got Shutdown in the finals. The 3rd line for the Hawks of TT Vermette Sharp was the difference in that series

 

[CokenoPepsi]

How was Toews subpar in 2015?

2010... He was great the first half of the playoffs but really fell back second half.

In fact if you take the time from the 2010 final until the end of the 2013 playoffs Toews only scored 6 goals in 42 games.

Over an 82 game season that is 12 goals and 49 points but those teams were so deep they didn't really need him as long as they had Keith and Kane