Hawk fans, what happened to Toews?

[ColbyChaos]

Tell me then. Tell me what about his defensive game SPECIFICALLY propels him into an elite category.

a 50-60 point player is not elite. Having one that backchecks and has good positioning or is a "good leader" does not change that in my eyes. Unless you can convince me otherwise.

Toews has lower offensive output then other top line centers. People say he's elite defensively to make up that gap. Now that Crosby doesn't put up all-world numbers anymore, his defensive play is superb. If one is down, the other is up. It's based on nothing, its just a common ideology that makes people feel smarter.



Toews alleged defensive wizardry is sure helping the Hawks now, though. I bet Hawks fans would trade that for true elite offensive numbers. "But derp, three cups, we wouldn't trade that!" Oh yes, my mistake. I forgot that Toews defensive prowess was the reason for those. Not well coached, incredibly deep teams, but one mans leadership. Did I mention leadership is another important part of being elite defensively? That's what I've heard from dem Hawk bois

You would think after literally being the shutdown guy for team canada all of these years that this wouldnt even have to be explained at this point but once again this site manages to defy expectations

 

[Regal]

Toews is only 29(?), and as far as I know hasn't had any serious injury issues. A guy that makes franchise player money and is supposedly a top 100 player of all time should be able to play well into his 30's. There are plenty of examples of this to different degree's: Sakic, Yzerman, Francis, Sundin, Brind'Amour, etc etc.

So it's more like he was just never that good, and is an example of how the league can vastly overrate someone based on a few playoff performances. Realstically Kane is the better player on Chicago and earned the $10.5M, but the way Toews gets treated as the darling by everyone Chicago either couldn't or didn't have the balls to pay Toews less than Kane.

Lots of guys have regressed early. He always played a tenacious game and that can take its toll, especially with long runs, and the guys who stay elite longer typically have more skill, play a less abusive style, or have the size to fall back on when they start to slow down. It's not like he's a shell of himself. He's just not quite the same finisher anymore, and the previous two years he also wasn't the same possession driver. And since you mention him, Brind'Amour's production also took a hit at the same age, only he had a resurgence at age 35-36 after the lockout

 

[Regal]

I'm not the one who got so upset over me calling him a non 70 point player....which in many ways he isn't, but it's typical that someone would get upset over "putting down" the great Toews...

your still in that frame of mind that he WOULD have hit 70 if not missing those games, and there is no proof behind that. Outside of 2010 and 2014, you have an argument, but those are 2 seasons where he legit could have reached 70 if he played all 82 games, every other year, he either missed it or was out of reach for it. My problem with "on pace" is that gives us this notion and him the benefit of the doubt that he would have more 70 point seasons, but there is just no knowing that.

Calling Toews a non 70 point center shouldn't cause such an uproar given the simple fact that he hit 70 points once, and it was 7 years ago.....was he close after that? Sure, but he still never hit that marker after. Is that really hard to understand? What is all the commotion?

When someone always paces for it and does it over a sample of over 400 games, it seems more likely than not he would have hit it. And realistically it's meant to be a rough baseline. A healthy Toews is likely putting up high 60s to low 70s in most of his prime, which means saying 70 is just easier. Just as when Tavares had 81 in 82 and then 47 in 48 in back to back years, its just easier to call him a PPG center and gives a good sense of his production. It's a hell of a lot more accurate to say he was a 70 point center or a 70 point pace center than a 60 point center like some claim. He was more accurately a 65-70 point center while missing a handful of games, but again, 70 just makes it simpler. Regardless, it's f***ing hilarious to see you think the others are the ones getting bent out of shape when the entire discussion started when someone took issue with him being called a 70 point pace center

 

[GreatGonzo]

Lmao. That is nowhere close to the toews crosby disparity. Reaching pathetically.

He still loses the match up very easily....

You want to talk about "owning" though...how about Bergeron?
Toews: 8-3-0-3 (-4)
Bergeron: 8-7-6-13 (+10)

How's that for ownership?

 

[GreatGonzo]

When someone always paces for it and does it over a sample of over 400 games, it seems more likely than not he would have hit it. And realistically it's meant to be a rough baseline. A healthy Toews is likely putting up high 60s to low 70s in most of his prime, which means saying 70 is just easier. Just as when Tavares had 81 in 82 and then 47 in 48 in back to back years, its just easier to call him a PPG center and gives a good sense of his production. It's a hell of a lot more accurate to say he was a 70 point center or a 70 point pace center than a 60 point center like some claim. He was more accurately a 65-70 point center while missing a handful of games, but again, 70 just makes it simpler. Regardless, it's ****ing hilarious to see you think the others are the ones getting bent out of shape when the entire discussion started when someone took issue with him being called a 70 point pace center

Your Tavares example makes no sense, but nice try....

He isn't a 70 point center in general though, I don't look at pace as actual production. There are 2 years where him missing games probably cost him from hitting those totals, but in the end, in general...he has hit 70 points once. And hasn't been "average" or has "paced" for 70 points for a few years now.

For example Eric Stall has an average of like....I think 71 points per 82 games? Maybe....at least within his career. The difference is Stall hit that 70 point mark 7 times.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Toews' decline looks even worse due to Patrick Kane not just keeping up his standard but actually getting even better as he ages.

 

[TLEH]

Gonzo doesn't post on the main boards in ages, soon as he sees a Toews thread he hops right in.
Why am I not surprised.


Anyway, Toews was dominant at times, like dominant. But he always had a good supporting cast around, too.


I think his body is just wore down. He can't grind like he used to, his shot also seems considerably worse in my opinion.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Gonzo doesn't post on the main boards in ages, soon as he sees a Toews thread he hops right in.
Why am I not surprised.


Anyway, Toews was dominant at times, like dominant. But he always had a good supporting cast around, too.


I think his body is just wore down. He can't grind like he used to, his shot also seems considerably worse in my opinion.

I've been on the main boards pretty frequently actually, on topics that have nothing to do sith Toews, but then you show up....Sounds more like your the one who pops in when Toews is being discussed

 

[Battle Lin]

hes always been only a 60 something point player, hes hit 70s once, but he use to play great D now its still good...but toews was never some offensive superstar, still very good though, hes not as young anymore but hes still producing around that 60 point mark

 

[TGWL]

Toews is only 29(?), and as far as I know hasn't had any serious injury issues. A guy that makes franchise player money and is supposedly a top 100 player of all time should be able to play well into his 30's. There are plenty of examples of this to different degree's: Sakic, Yzerman, Francis, Sundin, Brind'Amour, etc etc.

So it's more like he was just never that good, and is an example of how the league can vastly overrate someone based on a few playoff performances. Realstically Kane is the better player on Chicago and earned the $10.5M, but the way Toews gets treated as the darling by everyone Chicago either couldn't or didn't have the balls to pay Toews less than Kane.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, based on my post? He's not "old" but, he's not "young", either. Especially with all the younger talent in the NHL now. He can still play right now, I don't think it's far-fetched to believe he can play well into his 30's but, that has nothing to do with not playing at a level he once played at. I don't think he was ever a 10.5 million player but, even if he was vastly overrated, he still played better.

 

[goldenbladz1]

Toews is who most people thought he was. Losing his supporting cast so he isn't standing out as much. He is a product of whatever team he is on. When CHI was dominant, so was he. They aren't dominant anymore so he is not.

Toews is still playing well but has not scored as much as he used to. He was never a top point man but had a lot of 25-30 seasons. He plays the toughest deployment and QoC as they no longer have another shut down center to help (Kruger) and all the very young ELC players on the team that are developing. I think people rag on Toews because of the Salary Cap hit. That's debatable as he and Kane were the two players that saved the Franchise that was going nowhere until they showed up. People seem to forget other players that received $10 million dollar contracts like Scott Gomez, Daniel Briere and Thomas Vanek that didn't do a hell of a lot.

 

[daver]

Toews' points and PPG finishes among Centres

2010 - 20th in points, 16th in PPG
2011 - 6th in points, 10th in PPG
2012 - 25th in points, 8th in PPG
2013 - 7th in points, 9th in PPG
2014 - 13th in points, 13th in PPG
2015 - 14th in points, 17th in PPG
2016 - 24th in points, 28th in PPG
2017 - 23rd in points, 14th in PPG
2018 - 49th in points

 

[Loseipeg]

He still loses the match up very easily....

You want to talk about "owning" though...how about Bergeron?
Toews: 8-3-0-3 (-4)
Bergeron: 8-7-6-13 (+10)

How's that for ownership?

Did you forget that at many points over the past several years that toews played against the krejci line? Like all of 2013 finals? Toews and crosby are always matched up against each other and the owning is dramatic. -12 vs +11 lmao and literally zero wins for crosby.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Toews' points and PPG finishes among Centres

2010 - 20th in points, 16th in PPG
2011 - 6th in points, 10th in PPG
2012 - 25th in points, 8th in PPG
2013 - 7th in points, 9th in PPG
2014 - 13th in points, 13th in PPG
2015 - 14th in points, 17th in PPG
2016 - 24th in points, 28th in PPG
2017 - 23rd in points, 14th in PPG
2018 - 49th in points

Despite the fact offensively he wasn't up there I still think he was a top 5 center at his peak.

But the media tried to create some sort of rivalry between him and Crosby so you had a bunch of people calling him the 2nd best player in the world when he clearly wasn't which is where the backlash began.

 

[IPS]

Having Toews in the top 100 players of all time is looking so incredibly stupid right now.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Toews' points and PPG finishes among Centres

2010 - 20th in points, 16th in PPG (Stanley Cup Champion + Conn Smythe)
2011 - 6th in points, 10th in PPG
2012 - 25th in points, 8th in PPG
2013 - 7th in points, 9th in PPG (Stanley Cup Champion + Selke)
2014 - 13th in points, 13th in PPG
2015 - 14th in points, 17th in PPG (Stanley Cup Champion)
2016 - 24th in points, 28th in PPG
2017 - 23rd in points, 14th in PPG
2018 - 49th in points

Looks good to me.
He's had a great career without factoring in all the other stuff like being team captain during the greatest stretch in Blackhawks history, 2x Olympic Gold (and best forward in 2010), Messier Award, All-Star appearances, youngest player to join Triple Gold Club, etc.

Pay the man, he's earned it.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Did you forget that at many points over the past several years that toews played against the krejci line? Like all of 2013 finals? Toews and crosby are always matched up against each other and the owning is dramatic. -12 vs +11 lmao and literally zero wins for crosby.

hasnt Bergeron been matched against Toews line for the majority of that time?

My point is, your so fixated on Toews "owning" Crosby, as if that means something, you forget that Toews loses match ups to Giroux.....

 

[ChiHawk21]

hasnt Bergeron been matched against Toews line for the majority of that time?

My point is, your so fixated on Toews "owning" Crosby, as if that means something, you forget that Toews loses match ups to Giroux.....

Giroux is a good number 1 center so is toews. I know u live your life to try and tear him down but from the first time they laced up skates until today toews hockey career is 10x better. That must kill you.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Giroux is a good number 1 center so is toews. I know u live your life to try and tear him down but from the first time they laced up skates until today toews hockey career is 10x better. That must kill you.

That doesn't change the fact that Toews consistently loses the match up....

But let's stay clear of that because you obviously can't handle it and focus on something off topic....

 

[Loseipeg]

That doesn't change the fact that Toews consistently loses the match up....

But let's stay clear of that because you obviously can't handle it and focus on something off topic....

You are desperately trying to create a narrative. +2 and -2 isnt as significant as +11 and -12. The first one might wven be inconclusive and within normal randomness/margin of error. The second one is pretty damn conclusive. Desperate.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You are desperately trying to create a narrative. +2 and -2 isnt as significant as +11 and -12. The first one might wven be inconclusive and within normal randomness/margin of error. The second one is pretty damn conclusive. Desperate.

I'm not talking about the significance of the "owning" at all, just that Giroux "owns" Toews head to head....your the one that's changing the context.

Toews owns Crosby, but Giroux owns Toews.....so does that mean Giroux is better than Crosby???

 

[Loseipeg]

I'm not talking about the significance of the "owning" at all, just that Giroux "owns" Toews head to head....your the one that's changing the context.

Toews owns Crosby, but Giroux owns Toews.....so does that mean Giroux is better than Crosby???

You clearly dont understand the concept of statistical significance. Read up on that then come back here.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You clearly dont understand the concept of statistical significance. Read up on that then come back here.

True or false....Giroux beats Toews easily head to head.

 

[Avelanche]

his production is the same as always. he was barely a 30g scorer ppg player on one of the best teams in the modern NHL

 

[CokenoPepsi]

His production was probably a little inflated due to always playing with star first liners and now it is taking an extra beating playing with third liners.

Toews has always been a real hot/cold player