Has the boycott been effective so far?

[coladin]

So you are admitting that they are?

No. I don't know why they would. I am just surprised there hasn't been more made about it. I mean, they went all out on the Uber story, so don't know why they would protect him?

 

[BatherSeason]

You are right, dwelling on one's ego who want to say it is all about boycotters is actually irrelevant.

Cheapest tickets, weakest attendance in Canada. Not sure what will change that here in Ottawa moving forward. Even if this team has new ownerhsip, new arena, the costs are the costs. Can this market really afford NHL hockey? I don't mean the scraping by routine we have all become accustomed to, but really compete with a rising cap?

How can the Arizona Coyotes continue to do it AND retain their players?

 

[coladin]

Agreed, the usual suspect general contractor for the build has heard nothing. Only way Lebreton happens is if Devcore group is building it, IMO. I personally thought their bid was far superior anyways.

Loved their bid as well.

 

[Micklebot]

That had nothing to do with adding seats though. They changed capacity for boxes was a big factor in that. More standing room in those hundreds of boxes and , another fact, when Alfie had his retirement ceremony they had 20,166 as actual paid attendance.

Attendance unfortunately moves around a lot at this place. NHL numbers are best because I think they are used towards revenue sharing formulas.

The NHL numbers posted in game sheets (if that's what you are referring to by NHL numbers) aren't the same as the ones the teams use for internal stats from what I understand. The old CBA used paid attendance thresholds in the calculation, but my understanding was that was taken out in the current CBA. The current CBA replaced them with available grants and loans that teams lagging behind could get based on industry growth business plans that they would have to submit.

 

[BatherSeason]

No. I don't know why they would. I am just surprised there hasn't been more made about it. I mean, they went all out on the Uber story, so don't know why they would protect him?

Who did? This wasn't about Melnyk and it was great for him because they now have something to spin the Matt Duchene narrative should he not resign. Seems to me, the biggest talking point from the video was in regards to ethics and nothing was made from the actual content of the video. I have yet to hear or read any local sports reporter discuss what exactly is wrong with the PK. If there was some discussion, it was overshadowed by Melnyk banning Warren from the plane and the "OMG what kind of a person would release this video" talk.

 

[coladin]

How can the Arizona Coyotes continue to do it AND retain their players?

They have only retained OEL. Am I missing something?

 

[harrisb]

They have only retained OEL. Am I missing something?

Probably referring to eating bad contracts for picks and prospects. We kinda do the opposite, we sell picks for cash

 

[Micklebot]

What proof do you have that the attendance numbers were inflated up until last year?

Roy Mlakar was on the radio yesterday and stated that during the years where they were perennial cup contenders that the stadium was always sold out and the numbers were paid attendance

There was some grey zone as to what constituted paid back a while ago. The NHL changed it's definition to no longer include bonus games included as part of a season ticket package. We went from giving away ~800 tickets a game to ~3000 based on a change in definitions and a small sample being projected (the stat was taken early in the year, and a large portion of those giveaways had already been used in the first two months of the season, so as the season went on the per game giveaways would inevitably drop). That change actually happened the first year after Mlakar left, so during his tenure, paid attendance would have been considered much closer to official attendance as far as he was concerned.

Edit: It should be mentioned that in the same year they changed the definition, the team also started a massive campaign to try and retain season ticket holders as we were coming off a bad season (paddock year). We had a deal were season ticket holder got 6 free tickets (up from 2 the previous year) if they committed to renew by a certain deadline that was probably a big part of the above mentioned 800 up to 3000 freebee per game increase.

 

[BatherSeason]

They have only retained OEL. Am I missing something?

That is one more player than we can retain.

They also acquired salary in the Galchenyuk trade, we give away picks so that the other team will eat salary.

Antii Raanta also signed there. Our big ticket FA signing of the past 5 years has been Nate Thompson, and we had to overpay immensely for him.

 

[coladin]

Who did? This wasn't about Melnyk and it was great for him because they now have something to spin the Matt Duchene narrative should he not resign. Seems to me, the biggest talking point from the video was in regards to ethics and nothing was made from the actual content of the video. I have yet to hear or read any local sports reporter discuss what exactly is wrong with the PK. If there was some discussion, it was overshadowed by Melnyk banning Warren from the plane and the "OMG what kind of a person would release this video" talk.

My gosh, everything seems to be about Melnyk. There were repercussions afterwards towards the media, and we don't know who wanted him off.

 

[JD1]

I think the biggest reason that season ticket sales are down was because of the whole Karlsson debacle. They left passionate hockey fans twisting in the wind, they promised "a plan" and never revealed any sort of plan until the bizarre Melnyk/Boro video. Management and ownership lied to the fanbase for months and tried to play everyone for fools. People didn't appreciate that and didn't renew. Some did and there is nothing wrong with that either. If they would have just pulled the band aid off earlier instead of the whole "we will offer him a contract on July 1" song & dance, maybe people would have been more forgiving. Add in the Randy Lee garbage, amongst many other things. They have no one else to blame but themselves.

As for the everyday ticket sales, the young guys are fun to watch and GB is letting them play a little for 2 periods (then the third period turtle) therefore people are walking up.

i agree that they should have pulled the bandaid off sooner and dealt with the EK situation more clearly. I 100% agree with that. But I don't agree that they have no one else to blame but themselves. I think karlsson played a role in the way his departure went down

 

[coladin]

There was some grey zone as to what constituted paid back a while ago. The NHL changed it's definition to no longer include bonus games included as part of a season ticket package. We went from giving away ~800 tickets a game to ~3000 based on a change in definitions and a small sample being projected (the stat was taken early in the year, and a large portion of those giveaways had already been used in the first two months of the season, so as the season went on the per game giveaways would inevitably drop). That change actually happened the first year after Mlakar left, so during his tenure, paid attendance would have been considered much closer to official attendance as far as he was concerned.

Edit: It should be mentioned that in the same year they changed the definition, the team also started a massive campaign to try and retain season ticket holders as we were coming off a bad season (paddock year). We had a deal were season ticket holder got 6 free tickets (up from 2 the previous year) if they committed to renew by a certain deadline that was probably a big part of the above mentioned 800 up to 3000 freebee per game increase.

Exactly. Yes. A lot of the freebies stayed within the STH family. Paid, but truly not paid.

 

[BatherSeason]

My gosh, everything seems to be about Melnyk. There were repercussions afterwards towards the media, and we don't know who wanted him off.

He is the CEO, isn't he? If you think everything is about Melnyk, then replace the word "Melnyk" with the "Ottawa Senators"and go from there.

Who did? This wasn't about the OTTAWA SENATORS and it was great for him because they now have something to spin the Matt Duchene narrative should he not resign. Seems to me, the biggest talking point from the video was in regards to ethics and nothing was made from the actual content of the video. I have yet to hear or read any local sports reporter discuss what exactly is wrong with the PK. If there was some discussion, it was overshadowed by the OTTAWA SENATORS banning Warren from the plane and the "OMG what kind of a person would release this video" talk.

We can try this with any post in here, he is the owner and CEO, he does make the final call on almost everything.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

EM is a winner is the boardroom takedown,or in playing the market right..But as a charismatic leader,that can sell freezers to the Inuit,he is not

Winner in the board room? Didn't he get removed from the board of his own company. Melnyk by all accounts is a pretty terrible business man. His net worth has been steadily declining for over a decade since the law has taken notice of his dealings.

 

[Micklebot]

Exactly. Yes. A lot of the freebies stayed within the STH family. Paid, but truly not paid.

Other teams offer discounts or other incentives like free parking, bonus bucks good for merch, ect if bought by a deadline which still count as fully paid. Alternatively, they just set packages that include the equivalent of the bonus games in the price. If I sell you 20 games for 2k, or 18 games for 2k and give you 2 bonus tickets if you commit by the end of August, does it not come to the same thing?

Personally, I see bonus tickets as a purchasing incentive as very different from giving away tickets after the purchase is made or giving them to charities and boys and girls clubs to fill out games that weren't selling out. it's disingenuous to treat them the same and ignore other types of purchasing incentives all together, not that we're privy to the data across the league anyways.

 

[topshelf15]

Winner in the board room? Didn't he get removed from the board of his own company. Melnyk by all accounts is a pretty terrible business man. His net worth has been steadily declining for over a decade since the law has taken notice of his dealings.

Meh I dont care for him nor how he does business ,but the guy has made more money that you I and this entire board probably put together....Lol

 

[JD1]

Nobody knows how much or how little effect the boycott itself is having, because nobody can control for the many variables. In the end though, who cares about whether or not somebody wants to lay claim to the poor attendance. It's largely irrelevant what specific portion of the drop is cause by what specific actions.

As to the bold, kind of tough to compare though, other Canadian markets have significantly different corporate markets to bolster numbers, and aside from Calgary and Winnipeg, significantly larger populations. I wish the team was able to convert more of the Habs and Toronto fans too, that's another issue other Canadian markets don't have to overcome.

So, when somebody suggests Ottawa fans are just cheap, it really ignores the context of this market; we're already one of the smaller markets, and then you have two major roadblocks that other teams don't deal with.

I don't think it's a case of being cheap, it's a case of can't support as costs have escalated

Smallest potential corporate market. we agree?
smallest if not one of the smallest corporate season ticket bases. we agree?
The rest needs to be made up by Joe fan. Joe fan in this market has done an awesome job of supporting the market. But I don't think there is any real opportunity to squeeze another 10 or 15 million out of Joe fan, there aren't enough Joes and Joe is not rich enough

Here's the gate receipt data from forbes for 2017 for Cdn teams
Toronto 85M
Montreal 91M
Edmonton 73M
Calgary 58M
Winnipeg 52M
Vancouver 66M
Ottawa 46M

Even Winnipeg with a very small rink, the smallest in the league, generates more gate revenue. The average of those 6 teams is 71M which is 25M higher than our figure. Ticket prices would need to rise by 54% to be average. even to get another 10M would require ticket prices to rise 22%.

Ticket prices are already high and I personally don't think fans can afford to go higher. It's already expensive, from tickets to beer to food.

I don't like Melnyk and I've been clear about that, but the problem I've highlighted is not Melnyk's. Even in the best of times we have a problem. And anyone doing there dd on a potential 500M + acquisition knows it.

 

[Micklebot]

I don't think it's a case of being cheap, it's a case of can't support as costs have escalated

Smallest potential corporate market. we agree?
smallest if not one of the smallest corporate season ticket bases. we agree?
The rest needs to be made up by Joe fan. Joe fan in this market has done an awesome job of supporting the market. But I don't think there is any real opportunity to squeeze another 10 or 15 million out of Joe fan, there aren't enough Joes and Joe is not rich enough

Here's the gate receipt data from forbes for 2017 for Cdn teams
Toronto 85M
Montreal 91M
Edmonton 73M
Calgary 58M
Winnipeg 52M
Vancouver 66M
Ottawa 46M
Even Winnipeg with a very small rink, the smallest in the league, generates more gate revenue. The average of those 6 teams is 71M which is 25M higher than our figure. Ticket prices would need to rise by 54% to be average. even to get another 10M would require ticket prices to rise 22%.

Ticket prices are already high and I personally don't think fans can afford to go higher. It's already expensive, from tickets to beer to food.

I don't like Melnyk and I've been clear about that, but the problem I've highlighted is not Melnyk's. Even in the best of times we have a problem. And anyone doing there dd on a potential 500M + acquisition knows it.

I think Melnyk had the right idea going after alternate revenue streams (casino, and now condos) even if I don't like the idea of another casino in the area. I also think the team needs to do a better job at diversifying it's fanbase (we do a lousy job over on the gatineau side from what I understand). We started off with the right idea in going after families early on to get the next generation of fans when this team first arrived.

The big issue though is we need to be an exciting product, and we can't be alienating fans. Boucher's system initially got decent results, but frankly MacLean's system got similar results in the reg season with a far more interesting product, as an example. Murray (RIP) had the theory that hockey should be fun, and playing an offense first system was typically how he wanted things run. Obviously you have to have some focus on D, but when the narrative is you're the most boring team in the league, that's not a great thing for a team that needs to scrape and claw for it's ticket sales. As for the alienating fans bit, there are some pretty obvious area's the team dropped the ball, be it Melnyk opening his mouth, the way Dorion handled various trades, or some things that may or may not have been controllable like the Randy Lee fiasco.

Melnyk certainly isn't responsible for every problem this franchise has, but frankly with the roadblocks we have, we can't afford for him to be even partially responsible for any more.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Meh I dont care for him nor how he does business ,but the guy has made more money that you I and this entire board probably put together....Lol

That more reflects his morality rather than his intelligence. A man shouldn't be measured by his wallet.

 

[Smash88]

I think the biggest reason that season ticket sales are down was because of the whole Karlsson debacle. They left passionate hockey fans twisting in the wind, they promised "a plan" and never revealed any sort of plan until the bizarre Melnyk/Boro video. Management and ownership lied to the fanbase for months and tried to play everyone for fools. People didn't appreciate that and didn't renew. Some did and there is nothing wrong with that either. If they would have just pulled the band aid off earlier instead of the whole "we will offer him a contract on July 1" song & dance, maybe people would have been more forgiving. Add in the Randy Lee garbage, amongst many other things. They have no one else to blame but themselves.

As for the everyday ticket sales, the young guys are fun to watch and GB is letting them play a little for 2 periods (then the third period turtle) therefore people are walking up.

Season ticket renewal is in March. So all renewals are done by April. I believe the Karlsson stuff (specifically the "we will offer him a contract") was after that?

The season ticket base has steadily gone down since Phoenix. This isn't the whole reason, but this is when it started. The Melnyk stuff may have added to the process, but I'd wager we would still be in this spot even if we never heard from Melnyk. The writing has been on the wall for a while.

I'd wager the Randy Lee thing had almost nothing to do with ticket sales. Actually go around the city and ask the average person who Randy Lee is, I figure most wont even know who he is.

If your last point is true, then that basically means that all those people don't care about the owner, which is exactly what I've been saying.

I have no doubts that people are pissed about that way this summer went as I am one of them. But the fact people act like this is the sole reason why sales are down this year irks me, since this has been a trend for a lot longer.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Is the Phoenix fiasco still in limbo? Or do they actually have something in place to resolve/replace it?

 

[Ice-Tray]

Some good points made, but now the question is; where do we go from here?

EM has committed over and over again to not selling the team, and if he were to sell the team it would make zero sense to do it before the arena and Lebreton development goes down, which is at least several years away.

So how does the city and the team move forward from what in general was an awkward year. The cap has risen too much for this market to be a cap team anymore, save for a potential contending build up, I think most can see that, so an exciting budget team seems reasonable. I think most fans can get behind watching enjoyable and competitive hockey, especially since spending has traditionally not been the be all end all to winning championships.

So then we're left with the relationship between the owner and the fanbase. It's not as bad as some would make it out to be simply because most fans don't really care about the off ice issues, but many do, enough to raise a ruckus and keep at least some continued focus on the negative relationship. In the end, if the owner is not open to selling the team there has to be a way for the fences to be mended.

There can, and should, be an expectation that the organization will work hard to build back fan loyalty, ultimately by icing an exciting product that can be trusted to grow and compete, and fans need to be willing to be wooed back at the right price.

If your partner cheats on you, and you're not going to leave them, you have to give them the opportunity to make things right eventually, or all you're doing is perpetually punishing them, all the while preventing yourself from moving on and finding your own happiness.

Hopefully we'll see this season as punishment attendance-wise, and the team will continue to get better, give incentives, work hard to make a better in-game environment, while committing to growing on-ice success. If they commit to working hard to rebuild fences, hopefully those fans who are especially angry will eventually find their way back to being supportive fans of their team.

I understand that this will be a process for some, I just hope it's a possibility, as this fanbase and this board deserves to find a way out of this funk and get back to getting heated over players, games, trades and rivals.

 

[Smash88]

Is the Phoenix fiasco still in limbo? Or do they actually have something in place to resolve/replace it?

They announced that they were replacing it, but nothing concrete as far as what it is or dates have been announced..

 

[Micklebot]

Is the Phoenix fiasco still in limbo? Or do they actually have something in place to resolve/replace it?

Phoenix is still the pay system, I believe the gov't has committed to investing in a new pay system to replace it but they haven't to my knowledge put out a RFP yet. I think they are currently still doing the preliminary analysis of potential vendors and what they could provide.

 

[Micklebot]

EM has committed over and over again to not selling the team, and if he were to sell the team it would make zero sense to do it before the arena and Lebreton development goes down, which is at least several years away.

Not sure I really agree. There's a lot of risk involved in the Lebreton development, selling before means he exchanges potential of greater profits in the future for a sure thing now. Obviously it all depends on the offer being made, but there is certainly potential for a big pay day selling prior to Lebreton, and there's potential for failure to complete Lebreton, so there absolutely is some sense in selling now, it's all just a risk benefit analysis. How much risk is Melnyk willing to take, and how close is the perspective buyer(s) willing to bring their offer to the potential benefit Melnyk could gain by holding out till after Lebreton is complete.

As to committing not to sell, I take that with a grain of salt as he could be being truthful, or he could be trying to increase his leverage in negotiations. Only he knows.