Has Bergevin made us a better team so far this summer? Part 3

[didimentionlarseller]

People don’t give Bergie enough credit remember how he tried to overpay for Lucic also and got turn down lols - low energy Bergevin

 

[PhysicX]

People don’t give Bergie enough credit remember how he tried to overpay for Lucic also and got turn down lols - low energy Bergevin

NOBODY could have predicted Lucic's play to downspiral to this extent. MB was right in trying to lure him here. Lucic was/is the type of forward we were/are lacking. Guess he lucked out, but luck usually follows skilled and hard-working individuals.

However, his luck ran out pertaining to Hemsky, Alzner, Schlemko and Streit, so I don't have an iota of doubt I have no clue what I've just typed.

Anyways, cheering for Bergevin to rise from the ashes and make amends with his old pal: L-U-C-K.

 

[SOLR]

NOBODY could have predicted Lucic's play to downspiral to this extent. MB was right in trying to lure him here. Lucic was/is the type of forward we were/are lacking. Guess he lucked out, but luck usually follows skilled and hard-working individuals.

Sorry but that's garbage.
Big guys who aren't exactly fast, tend to get slower and less effective over time. This was entirely predictable.

 

[Habs Icing]

It's not about one trade improving Drouin's performance, it's that making this move+losing Radu and Markov just didn't make much sense from a building stand point. I was arguing ad nauseam with 417 about how dumb this trade is if we don't re-sign those two guys.

I'll repeat my question. If MB had re-signed Rads and Markov, would that improve the Drouin-Sergachev trade? Because basically, that's what you're saying. Those two would have made the trade better. Or were we still giving up a dollar's worth of talent and getting 45 cents in return?

I'll tell you what's going on with this new wrinkle in the Drouin trade. Many posters on this forum were ecstatic with the trade and said as much when it went down. Those very same posters today want to rip into MB and use the Drouin trade as fodder. When it's pointed out to them it's hypocritical to do so they come up with this lame new angle.

I'm saying there's enough in MB's tenure to fire him without those posters pretending they knew Drouin wouldn't work out here because he didn't sign Rads and Markov. A year later MB got Domi, Tatar, KK and Armia, did that make JD a better hockey player? Or was he still the same slug?

 

[DAChampion]

I'll tell you what's going on with this new wrinkle in the Drouin trade. Many posters on this forum were ecstatic with the trade and said as much when it went down. Those very same posters today want to rip into MB and use the Drouin trade as fodder. When it's pointed out to them it's hypocritical to do so they come up with this lame new angle.

It's not a lame new angle given that it was a primary angle discussed in the days following the trade.

 

[Habs Icing]

It's not a lame new angle given that it was a primary angle discussed in the days following the trade.

It's a pointless argument. We're discussing the trade. MB could have signed Rads, Markov, Karlsson, Crosby and Kane and that still would have been a BS trade that we lost. We got 45 cents in return for one dollar's worth of talent going the other way. No amount of trades and signings would ever improve the value of that trade.

Allow me to put this in simpler terms. Which is the better team, one that contains:

A)
Rads
Markov
Sergachev

or

B)
Rads
Markov
Drouin

 

[smirob]

I see... So now .75ppg and 2 hits per game for a 28 year old player on a sub-4M$ contract = "dead weight"

well, by that logic, hopefully MB continues with the no-brainer moves and dumps Byron, Gallagher, Tatar (all who were less productive last year and except Gally who matched it once, whom have never even hit .75ppg).

You consider Shaw a .75 ppg player????
He’s hit that once and falls around 0.45 in his career.

But I guess I consider trading an injury prone, career 0.45 ppg player when his value is high as a good move.

With your logic, he’s one of our best forwards - so I see why you don’t like the trade

 

[Kriss E]

I'll repeat my question. If MB had re-signed Rads and Markov, would that improve the Drouin-Sergachev trade? Because basically, that's what you're saying. Those two would have made the trade better. Or were we still giving up a dollar's worth of talent and getting 45 cents in return?

I'll tell you what's going on with this new wrinkle in the Drouin trade. Many posters on this forum were ecstatic with the trade and said as much when it went down. Those very same posters today want to rip into MB and use the Drouin trade as fodder. When it's pointed out to them it's hypocritical to do so they come up with this lame new angle.

I'm saying there's enough in MB's tenure to fire him without those posters pretending they knew Drouin wouldn't work out here because he didn't sign Rads and Markov. A year later MB got Domi, Tatar, KK and Armia, did that make JD a better hockey player? Or was he still the same slug?

Well I wasn't for this trade, nor against. I vividly remember discussing it though and how there would be no point to it if it isn't followed through with additional moves.
At the time I said I'd prefer just re-sign Radulov, keep our best blue chip prospect. If we were not going to lock Radu, keep Sergachev and rebuild. Again, I was arguing with 417, among others, about that, to which he'd respond by saying how Radu isn't the only solution, we could sign someone else, how Radu was overrated, etc..
Get it? I remember Whitesnake having the same sentiment except he liked Drouin way more than I did. But he too said if that's the only move Bergevin is doing, then it's stupid.

It's not about adding players so Drouin magically becomes a 120pt guy. Again, it's from a team building stand point. We wasted our best prospect for no reason essentially, not because Drouin is horrible and can't contribute, but because it did nothing for our team.

 

[Kriss E]

It's a pointless argument. We're discussing the trade. MB could have signed Rads, Markov, Karlsson, Crosby and Kane and that still would have been a BS trade that we lost. We got 45 cents in return for one dollar's worth of talent going the other way. No amount of trades and signings would ever improve the value of that trade.

Allow me to put this in simpler terms. Which is the better team, one that contains:

A)
Rads
Markov
Sergachev

or

B)
Rads
Markov
Drouin

Three players don't make a team. Team A could be better, but then so could Team B.

 

[DAChampion]

It's a pointless argument. We're discussing the trade. MB could have signed Rads, Markov, Karlsson, Crosby and Kane and that still would have been a BS trade that we lost. We got 45 cents in return for one dollar's worth of talent going the other way. No amount of trades and signings would ever improve the value of that trade.

Allow me to put this in simpler terms. Which is the better team, one that contains:

A)
Rads
Markov
Sergachev

or

B)
Rads
Markov
Drouin

Drouin could have helped the 2017 team, whereas Sergachev might not have been able to.

He did end up having a nice rookie season, but that was due to playing with Hedman. The Habs have not had a Hedman-caliber player since the Subban trade. We also should not apply retroactive clairvoyance to flukes.

So from the perspective of helping the 2017 team: B. That was the idea, that acquiring Drouin was a "win-now" move.

Now drop your revisionist history.

 

[Habs Icing]

Well I wasn't for this trade, nor against. I vividly remember discussing it though and how there would be no point to it if it isn't followed through with additional moves.
At the time I said I'd prefer just re-sign Radulov, keep our best blue chip prospect. If we were not going to lock Radu, keep Sergachev and rebuild. Again, I was arguing with 417, among others, about that, to which he'd respond by saying how Radu isn't the only solution, we could sign someone else, how Radu was overrated, etc..
Get it? I remember Whitesnake having the same sentiment except he liked Drouin way more than I did. But he too said if that's the only move Bergevin is doing, then it's stupid.

It's not about adding players so Drouin magically becomes a 120pt guy. Again, it's from a team building stand point. We wasted our best prospect for no reason essentially, not because Drouin is horrible and can't contribute, but because it did nothing for our team.

So we basically agreed when the trade was made except I wasn't sold on JD and I was over-sold on Sergachev. Two years later, I still would not make that trade. We lost that trade.

 

[Habs Icing]

Drouin could have helped the 2017 team, whereas Sergachev might not have been able to.

He did end up having a nice rookie season, but that was due to playing with Hedman. The Habs have not had a Hedman-caliber player since the Subban trade. We also should not apply retroactive clairvoyance to flukes.

So from the perspective of helping the 2017 team: B. That was the idea, that acquiring Drouin was a "win-now" move.

Now drop your revisionist history.

Says the poster who uses revisionist terminology.

 

[Kriss E]

So we basically agreed when the trade was made except I wasn't sold on JD and I was over-sold on Sergachev. Two years later, I still would not make that trade. We lost that trade.

I wouldn't do that trade either then or now, but I think value for value, it was a fair one at the time.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

I'll repeat my question. If MB had re-signed Rads and Markov, would that improve the Drouin-Sergachev trade? Because basically, that's what you're saying. Those two would have made the trade better. Or were we still giving up a dollar's worth of talent and getting 45 cents in return?

I'll tell you what's going on with this new wrinkle in the Drouin trade. Many posters on this forum were ecstatic with the trade and said as much when it went down. Those very same posters today want to rip into MB and use the Drouin trade as fodder. When it's pointed out to them it's hypocritical to do so they come up with this lame new angle.

I'm saying there's enough in MB's tenure to fire him without those posters pretending they knew Drouin wouldn't work out here because he didn't sign Rads and Markov. A year later MB got Domi, Tatar, KK and Armia, did that make JD a better hockey player? Or was he still the same slug?

A year later a lot of things have changed. Sure everybody would agree Bergevin had a very bad year two years ago. But this starting year I feel (as a habs partisan) better hoping for the future knowing we have a 19 y Kotka and the other youngs guys. Timmins gets better since last 3 years in drafting, now we got Poehling, KK, Caufield, add Suzuki, Domi is young, so is Gallagher and we also have some good D prospects but no future superstar I have to say ... except maybe Romanov.

Sure the Drouin trade is kindda bad but it didn't affect for the future because quikly we got KK, so JD becomes expendable with all the young guns at offense. If Bergy got Domi for Galchy, I trust him to make a decent trade if he trade JD. But I don't freak out knowing he's (JD) part of our team, If this guy gets constancy he becomes an interresting asset. Players like him are what Pat Burns used to say, "ce gars là c'est pas le gâteau mais le crémâge ki ya dessus', would translate "to this guy is not the pie but the icing cake on top of it'. JD fills in the category you could have that player in your team but don't make him a foundation of your team. Like with Blue Jackets, In their chart P-L Dubois was essential, (like the pie) and Duchene was the icing cake you could depart (if you have to).

JD needs special coaching care and two teamates ready to correct his mistakes if he lose the puck you know, a coach nightmare. Like many other players superior skilled but always insconstant, Galchy is another one, Semin, Ribeiro, AKost, Bulis, etc. The ultimate, the best 'you can trade that player' is Phil Kessel.

Anyway to get back with JD, he's the last worry I have in the team knowing Poehling is coming, JK is one year older in a nice tall body frame and one year nhl experienced. And we have Suzuki who might make the team, we also got Caufield, Juulsen is coming back, Brooks might make the team also. Tatar is almost fantastic, Armia is a good player, so is Lehkonen, Danault does a decent shut down line and get some production (mostly his wingers). If JD doesn't do the job, there will be a choice of 3 guys for his spot, so who cares?

 

[PaulD]

I'll repeat my question. If MB had re-signed Rads and Markov, would that improve the Drouin-Sergachev trade? Because basically, that's what you're saying. Those two would have made the trade better. Or were we still giving up a dollar's worth of talent and getting 45 cents in return?

I'll tell you what's going on with this new wrinkle in the Drouin trade. Many posters on this forum were ecstatic with the trade and said as much when it went down. Those very same posters today want to rip into MB and use the Drouin trade as fodder. When it's pointed out to them it's hypocritical to do so they come up with this lame new angle.

I'm saying there's enough in MB's tenure to fire him without those posters pretending they knew Drouin wouldn't work out here because he didn't sign Rads and Markov. A year later MB got Domi, Tatar, KK and Armia, did that make JD a better hockey player? Or was he still the same slug?

Still the same slug Yzerman knew he was ..................and some of us fans.

 

[Kriss E]

A year later a lot of things have changed. Sure everybody would agree Bergevin had a very bad year two years ago. But this starting year I feel (as a habs partisan) better hoping for the future knowing we have a 19 y Kotka and the other youngs guys. Timmins gets better since last 3 years in drafting, now we got Poehling, KK, Caufield, add Suzuki, Domi is young, so is Gallagher and we also have some good D prospects but no future superstar I have to say ... except maybe Romanov.

Sure the Drouin trade is kindda bad but it didn't affect for the future because quikly we got KK, so JD becomes expendable with all the young guns at offense. If Bergy got Domi for Galchy, I trust him to make a decent trade if he trade JD. But I don't freak out knowing he's (JD) part of our team, If this guy gets constancy he becomes an interresting asset. Players like him are what Pat Burns used to say, "ce gars là c'est pas le gâteau mais le crémâge ki ya dessus', would translate "to this guy is not the pie but the icing cake on top of it'. JD fills in the category you could have that player in your team but don't make him a foundation of your team. Like with Blue Jackets, In their chart P-L Dubois was essential, (like the pie) and Duchene was the icing cake you could depart (if you have to).

JD needs special coaching care and two teamates ready to correct his mistakes if he lose the puck you know, a coach nightmare. Like many other players superior skilled but always insconstant, Galchy is another one, Semin, Ribeiro, AKost, Bulis, etc. The ultimate, the best 'you can trade that player' is Phil Kessel.

Anyway to get back with JD, he's the last worry I have in the team knowing Poehling is coming, JK is one year older in a nice tall body frame and one year nhl experienced. And we have Suzuki who might make the team, we also got Caufield, Juulsen is coming back, Brooks might make the team also. Tatar is almost fantastic, Armia is a good player, so is Lehkonen, Danault does a decent shut down line and get some production (mostly his wingers). If JD doesn't do the job, there will be a choice of 3 guys for his spot, so who cares?

There is no hope as long as Bergevin is in charge. Have people not yet caught on?

 

[ECWHSWI]

It's a pointless argument. We're discussing the trade. MB could have signed Rads, Markov, Karlsson, Crosby and Kane and that still would have been a BS trade that we lost. We got 45 cents in return for one dollar's worth of talent going the other way. No amount of trades and signings would ever improve the value of that trade.

Allow me to put this in simpler terms. Which is the better team, one that contains:

A)
Rads
Markov
Sergachev

or

B)
Rads
Markov
Drouin

it's actually like this :
A) Drouin, Markov, Radulov
or
B) Drouin

doesnt make the Drouin trade any better, but it sure as hell makes the whole team better than it was after the trade...

 

[ECWHSWI]

A year later a lot of things have changed. Sure everybody would agree Bergevin had a very bad year two years ago. But this starting year I feel (as a habs partisan) better hoping for the future knowing we have a 19 y Kotka and the other youngs guys. Timmins gets better since last 3 years in drafting, now we got Poehling, KK, Caufield, add Suzuki, Domi is young, so is Gallagher and we also have some good D prospects but no future superstar I have to say ... except maybe Romanov.

Sure the Drouin trade is kindda bad but it didn't affect for the future because quikly we got KK, so JD becomes expendable with all the young guns at offense. If Bergy got Domi for Galchy, I trust him to make a decent trade if he trade JD. But I don't freak out knowing he's (JD) part of our team, If this guy gets constancy he becomes an interresting asset. Players like him are what Pat Burns used to say, "ce gars là c'est pas le gâteau mais le crémâge ki ya dessus', would translate "to this guy is not the pie but the icing cake on top of it'. JD fills in the category you could have that player in your team but don't make him a foundation of your team. Like with Blue Jackets, In their chart P-L Dubois was essential, (like the pie) and Duchene was the icing cake you could depart (if you have to).

JD needs special coaching care and two teamates ready to correct his mistakes if he lose the puck you know, a coach nightmare. Like many other players superior skilled but always insconstant, Galchy is another one, Semin, Ribeiro, AKost, Bulis, etc. The ultimate, the best 'you can trade that player' is Phil Kessel.

Anyway to get back with JD, he's the last worry I have in the team knowing Poehling is coming, JK is one year older in a nice tall body frame and one year nhl experienced. And we have Suzuki who might make the team, we also got Caufield, Juulsen is coming back, Brooks might make the team also. Tatar is almost fantastic, Armia is a good player, so is Lehkonen, Danault does a decent shut down line and get some production (mostly his wingers). If JD doesn't do the job, there will be a choice of 3 guys for his spot, so who cares?

don't know why you feel better THIS year considering ALL the bolded were acquired (draft, trade, etc) before this year, all of the bolded...

THIS season : Caufield drafted, then acquired Chariot, Cousins, Barber...

why don't you tell us how good you feel about THIS summer acquisitions ?? for THIS season ??

 

[Whitesnake]

It's not about winning a trade. It's about building a great team. If we are honest, Bergevin probably won most of his trades. Yet, this team is not where it should be. This is not a trade contest. This is about building a great hockey team. And clearly, you don't do it by winning mostly meaningless trades.....You go all in. Or you don't go at all. You don't build a great team by, as great as it looks, picking Byron for free. It's a heck of a move. But clearly...it doesn't move the needle. It has to be accompanied with others moves. Just like the Drouin-Sergachev move was. It didn't move the needle at all. Just like you don't rebuild properly by just letting Markov go. Or even if you'd trade Petry. Those are half-ass moves that makes you a half-ass team.

 

[417]

It's not about winning a trade. It's about building a great team. If we are honest, Bergevin probably won most of his trades. Yet, this team is not where it should be. This is not a trade contest. This is about building a great hockey team. And clearly, you don't do it by winning mostly meaningless trades.....You go all in. Or you don't go at all. You don't build a great team by, as great as it looks, picking Byron for free. It's a heck of a move. But clearly...it doesn't move the needle. It has to be accompanied with others moves. Just like the Drouin-Sergachev move was. It didn't move the needle at all. Just like you don't rebuild properly by just letting Markov go. Or even if you'd trade Petry. Those are half-ass moves that makes you a half-ass team.

This is a great post.

 

[DAChampion]

Says the poster who uses revisionist terminology.

You're confusing terms and ideas.

What I'm writing is simply "history": The Drouin trade at the time was largely appreciated as it was perceived to be one that could help the team in the short term.

Though, there were also some who thought that Sergachev was going to bust due to low hockey IQ, and were happy for the Habs to get anything prior to his value going to zero.

You are free to look up forum discussions from that period.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

don't know why you feel better THIS year considering ALL the bolded were acquired (draft, trade, etc) before this year, all of the bolded...

THIS season : Caufield drafted, then acquired Chariot, Cousins, Barber...

why don't you tell us how good you feel about THIS summer acquisitions ?? for THIS season ??

You forgot the improved back up goalie that is not a superstar but might make the job good enough.

 

[ECWHSWI]

You forgot the improved back up goalie that is not a superstar but might make the job good enough.

still... you're not telling us how good you feel about THIS summer acquisitions, Chariot, Kinkaid, Cousins, Barber...

 

[Tyson]

There is no hope as long as Bergevin is in charge. Have people not yet caught on?

Many haven’t

 

[Tyson]

You forgot the improved back up goalie that is not a superstar but might make the job good enough.

Kincaid was brutal last season...time will tell if he can rebound.