Has Babcock Been Set Up To Fail?

[biotk]

If Babcock feels that Dubas is not giving him a roster he can win with then he should quit and let someone who thinks he can work with the roster give it a shot.

 

[Menzinger]

Ottawa just beat Tampa in regulation does that mean DJ Smith is the greatest coach coaching at the moment?

Unlike Olympics, NHL is a different beast; Dubas failed to adress team weakness. Babcock's arrogant ways has held this team back but Dubas cannot be left off the hook; Dubas has to be held accountable

Almost as if we shouldn't make major decisions based off ultra short sample sizes

 

[Da Cool Rula]

I blame Dubas for not supplying the tough grinders. No one to protect the Leafs

 

[A1LeafNation]

I blame Dubas for not supplying the tough grinders. No one to protect the Leafs

Grinder gave us a bad pp and ok last year?

That's why we lost in the playoffs, that and Babcock never loaded up his lines and he was easy to coach against.

Everything comes back to coaching not grinders.

 

[Nithoniniel]

That was among the dumbest things I've read in a while. Just because you don't get a roster perfectly tailored to your preferences doesn't mean that you are set up to fail. If Babcock can't succeed with a roster like this, then he's not a good coach.

 

[Lightsol]

Babcock is only effective with two kinds of rosters; rosters with a few exceptional players here and there (Detroit when they won; seriously, outside of Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom what did those teams have?), and rosters that are basically All-Star teams (Canada Olympic team). He was great for the rebuild but now the Leafs have more talent than he's used to working with and he can't seem to figure out how to run it correctly; he's still operating as if the team is bereft of talent and all four lines are equally terrible...

 

[Voodoo Child]

A backup goalie can easily be gotten any time.

Team toughness? So what, keep Komarov and have to pay him 3,000,000 and watch him miss tap ins playing 18 a game?

I would have kept Komarov if we got him for like 2/2, and played him where he belongs: ten minutes a game on the 3rd line and on the PK.

Barrie is a significant upgrade on Hainsey, Ceci is a lateral move at worst from Zaitsev with just one year on his deal, a full year of Muzzin is better than thirty games of Muzzin.

Patty Marleau got two goals in his return to San Jose? Great, let's play him 21 minutes a game!

I liked and like Babcock but my patience is wearing thin. It's inexcusable that Auston Matthews is 101st in forward TOI, that he mercilessly line matches and that last year he never took the training wheels off Willy.

How many more games do we win if Matthews plays more with Willy?

Matthews
Tavares
Marner
Nylander
Johnsson
Kapanen
Hyman
Kerfoot

Is an elite forward group.

Rielly
Barrie
Muzzin
Dermott
Ceci

Is a competent D group.

Freddy is a top 10 goalie.

Set up to fail...

 

[Blanche Blanche]

Ottawa just beat Tampa in regulation does that mean DJ Smith is the greatest coach coaching at the moment?

Unlike Olympics, NHL is a different beast; Dubas failed to adress team weakness. Babcock's arrogant ways has held this team back but Dubas cannot be left off the hook; Dubas has to be held accountable

All is ok with Dubas other than Sparks, but A calder winner that crappy was just bad luck.
Marner if not becoming a synergy version of Kucherov, Hall and tarsenko will be unforgivable by Dubas to give him Auston Matthews money.

He looks like 4th liner material out there... He is that bad rn.
His slow starts during his sophomore slump were just not getting goals - Now he cant even handle the puck and make passes

 

[saffronleaf]

Lol

 

[Buds17]

Disagreements with the article aside (moves being made primarily for cap reasons - Barrie was only cheaper than Kadri due to the retention. Sandin is more expensive than Harpur, Gravel. Comparing Hainsey to Holl and JVR to Petan aren't exactly direct comparisons. Even Sandin and Gardiner.)

We'll find out where this team stands as the season goes on. A good amount of the roster has been overturned since last season. If Dubas has to fire Babcock at some point, the scrutiny eventually turns to the GM. Can debate the quality of the moves made, but I can't imagine a GM ever really benefits from setting a coach up to fail.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

A ridiculous article by a journalist who is as pompous and arrogant as Babcock. Dubas' structuring of this team cannot be assessed at this time, with all the changes and signings he had to make, we have to give him the year and then make a judgment. We do know that Mikheyev, Shore, Muzzin,and Barrie were good additions by Dubas. Another thing we do know is the defensive structure that Babcock is employing didn't work for over half of last season and hasn't looked good up to now. Other coaches with less talent have been able to teach his team to play a good defensive scheme. Babcock doesn't have the ability to get the most of his lineup. As some have said, he's been gifted with an extremely talented top 6 players and should be able to get more from these players. His lack of a desire to make adjustments has been to the detriment of the team. If Andersen doesn't play above average, Babcock is reduced to a below average coach.

 

[Polaris1010]

No Babcock just isn't very good.

After tonight's game, it is pretty clear that Babcock has a good idea of how to preserve his job in Toronto.

The 3rd line and 4th will bail him out.

Those two lines won the game tonight. After a 3 goal collapse in the 3rd at home, followed by a blow the very next game at home, on the road . . . look who showed up tonight.

The first two line tonight, could not generate offense, could not forecheck, did not play defense very sloppy in own zone.

 

[Polaris1010]

So many people despise Babcock they seem unwilling to see how weak defensively this team is. Not just describing the defense either. Hopefully they can be coached up tp a better level. Whether Babcock can do this remains to be seen. If you have read the article you would have known that his premise is that Dubas has spent so much money on the top 4 forwards he didn't have the money to build a stronger defense, is he wrong?

I got no idea what Dubas is thinking.

Last year's team had 2 rushing defensemen. This year's team has 1 rushing defenseman.

After a few games, one other thing is obvious too about the D . . . they are a lot slower.

The offense will not be the same.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I got no idea what Dubas is thinking.

Last year's team had 2 rushing defensemen. This year's team has 1 rushing defenseman.

After a few games, one other thing is obvious too about the D . . . they are a lot slower.

The offense will not be the same.

This really couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[Polaris1010]

This really couldn't be further from the truth.

Prove it.

Suggest a name.

 

[thewave]

This really couldn't be further from the truth.

What do we actually have right now? I can only for certain say it doesn't look very orderly.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Prove it.

Suggest a name.

If you don't think Barrie is a rushing defensemen there is no discussion to be had. Particular if you're going to use only a handful of games to assess.

 

[justanotherleafsfan]

Damian Cox is such a throwback to a 3rd year undergrad that reflectively 'reframes the issue' by simply being a contrarian.

Here is a hot take of my own though, Dubas is Babcock's boss so it's up to Mike to endear himself to his superior.

Sure Babs makes more money but this organization from Auston Matthews to Pierre Engvall to Mikko Kokkonan is shaped in Kyle's vision.

 

[Voodoo Child]

Damian Cox is such a throwback to a 3rd year undergrad that reflectively 'reframes the issue' by simply being a contrarian.

Here is a hot take of my own though, Dubas is Babcock's boss so it's up to Mike to endear himself to his superior.

Sure Babs makes more money but this organization from Auston Matthews to Pierre Engvall to Mikko Kokkonan is shaped in Kyle's vision.

I'm reading the article and he's basically butthurt about two things:

1. That even though Dubas went out and got a long-coveted organizational need (Barrie) by dealing a redundancy, he didn't try hard enough to get one of the easiest pieces to get, a backup goalie (hello, Neuvirth PTO).

2. Because he overpaid for Nylander, Matthews and Marner he had to look in the bargain bin for guys like Spezza, Mikeyhev and have Tima and Sandin up.

Just imagine guys! If we didn't overpay Marner and Matthews or get Tavares last year, we could have kept JVR, Komarov, Gardiner and even added Jason Pominville, Patrick Maroon, Ben Hutton and Magnus Paajarvi!

We could have even traded Marner for an older identical player who makes more in Panarin!

 

[Xanner]

Seriously everyone here is losing their minds over a 3-2-1 start, its hilarious.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Babcock is only effective with two kinds of rosters; rosters with a few exceptional players here and there (Detroit when they won; seriously, outside of Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom what did those teams have?), and rosters that are basically All-Star teams (Canada Olympic team). He was great for the rebuild but now the Leafs have more talent than he's used to working with and he can't seem to figure out how to run it correctly; he's still operating as if the team is bereft of talent and all four lines are equally terrible...

What did Detroit have besides 2 Selke level #1Cs and a top-5 all time defenseman?

How about 2 more #1 level D, a 40 goal elite 2-way winger, another 40 goal potential winger if not for injuries, another 30 goal winger who was the best netfront man in the league, and a bottom-6 full of high end grinders.

Detroit's roster in the mid-2000s was absolutely elite.

 

[Lainehasaweirdface]

Usually I don't care much for Cox's jibber jabber but he does raise interesting point.

Biggest team need was a solid back-up goal tender (Freddie looks like is going to be playing a lot of games this season as well) and fixing the defense meanwhile the GM has significantly overpaid his RFAs for shorter terms while no other team in the NHL has given out such outlandish RFA deals and not get 7 to 8 year commitment.

That not a lot of cap left to address the team weaknesses. The Dubas cult that were up in arms about Hainsey did not realize the positive impact Hainsey had on Rielly's play and statistics.

Meanwhile we now have a third pairing of a rookie (Sandin) and border line NHLers (Marincin, Holl).

Barrie is a puck mover but it remains to be seen whether he can be effective defensively. If Tampa game is any indication Barrie's defensive game leaves a lot to be desired guy was a -4 in that game.

Even when Dermott is back how reliable is Dermott going to be? He was sheltered last season playing behind

Rielly Hainsey
Gardiner Zaitsev/ Muzzin Zaitsev (muzz zaitsev were pretty solid in the playoffs IMO)
Gardiner Dermott

Now our d-core looks like

Muzzin Barrie (can Barrie really play a top2 role?)
Reilly Ceci (Is Ceci really that effective?)
Sandin Dermott (when dermott is back)

Last season if Nylander had signed at the right time we would have iced:

Johnsson-Matthews-Nylander
Hyman-Tavares-Marner
Marleau-Kadri-Kapanen
Ennis - Goat - Brown

This season we have:

same top 4 (when healthy)
Mikheyev-Kerfoot-Kapanen
XXX-Goat-Spezza/Shore

I think last season's roster was much stronger compared to this season's roster including the D-pairings and bottom 6 forwards.

Basically Dubas' foresight and hockey acumen looks very weak and laughable. Dubas is some genius in his own head and his cult's head.

Dubas needs to be held accountable and should NOT be given a pass.

That bottom six is marginally better at best than the one we have this year and is arguably worse if Mikheyev is as good as he looks. Dubas has his flaws, mainly negotiations and was not made to look good on the RFA deals, but his other signings and his trades have been money. So I don’t know about laughable.

 

[82Ninety42011]

The problem I see is how the Leafs are constructed and how Babcock coaches is the problem. Babcock is a very good coach first let me say but he preaches 2 way hockey not run and gun. He emphasizes defense first which leads to offence. However how the Leafs as currently constructed they are a run and gun team loaded with scoring options. They need a coach that let's them play to that strength. Babcock is trying to force them to play defense first and it's like ramming a square peg into a round hole. Either he changes his philosophy or they change the personnel and everyone knows whats easier. Now do the Leafs just throw 25 million away as that's what he's owed or keep trying this?? I hope they figure it out soon as this Leafs team is talented as any I've seen in my years watching hockey. Be a shame if they never get to play to their strength because the coach can't adjust to it.

 

[Lightsol]

What did Detroit have besides 2 Selke level #1Cs and a top-5 all time defenseman?

How about 2 more #1 level D, a 40 goal elite 2-way winger, another 40 goal potential winger if not for injuries, another 30 goal winger who was the best netfront man in the league, and a bottom-6 full of high end grinders.

Detroit's roster in the mid-2000s was absolutely elite.

I notice you didn't actually NAME any of them, though. I suspect you're counting one-year Marian Hossa in there (who I intentionally left off, because ONE YEAR). And I don't know if I'd consider an ageing Brian Rafalski a number one defenseman...
Holmstrom was always greatly overrated in Detroit. And Franzen was somewhat meh; got really hot in the playoffs every year, but that's about it. I think Babcock would love a team of Johan Franzens...

By the way...
I'd just like to point out that Babcock's success in Detroit didn't happen in the mid-2000's. Their back to back finals appearances were in 2008 and 2009, at a point where their elite lineup was starting to weaken. Badly.
Then you had Babcock insisting on playing guys like Dan Cleary no matter what...

 

[Lainehasaweirdface]

The problem I see is how the Leafs are constructed and how Babcock coaches is the problem. Babcock is a very good coach first let me say but he preaches 2 way hockey not run and gun. He emphasizes defense first which leads to offence. However how the Leafs as currently constructed they are a run and gun team loaded with scoring options. They need a coach that let's them play to that strength. Babcock is trying to force them to play defense first and it's like ramming a square peg into a round hole. Either he changes his philosophy or they change the personnel and everyone knows whats easier. Now do the Leafs just throw 25 million away as that's what he's owed or keep trying this?? I hope they figure it out soon as this Leafs team is talented as any I've seen in my years watching hockey. Be a shame if they never get to play to their strength because the coach can't adjust to it.

His system is all about run and gun offence, that’s one of the biggest problems he has. Over-utilizes the stretch pass breakout to get rush chances and 75% of the the time they get broken up.