Has Babcock Been Set Up To Fail?

sparxx87

Don Quixote
Jan 5, 2010
13,834
4,705
Toronto
I'm tired of the 'big & heavy' mantra. That's not why Toronto will fail to win, nor is it why they've failed to win in the past. Gritty, grinding, players are useful, so long as they also bring offensive, defensive, and transitional value to the team, and that is what those six teams have that balances their roster out...not some supposed physical edge. In fact, Toronto is technically a 'heavier' team that Pittsburgh & Boston, and is 11th in the entire NHL in that metric.

Toronto has been more physical in the past...even a few seasons back we featured Martin, Komarov, & Polak, all big hitters, and big bodies like Boyle & Fehr, as well as relatively physical players like Kadri, Zaitsev, & Borgman...none of that helped us win in the playoffs. In fact, the 2018 Maple Leafs were the 4th heaviest team in the NHL...Boston was 22nd.

Yes, St. Louis was a heavy team, and Washington (to a lesser extent) was as well. But Pittsburgh...heck no! They were 29th heaviest in 2017, and 23rd in 2016 when they won their Stanley Cups. Physicality was not a major part of their success...it was speed, speed, speed, and skill, skill, skill, and goaltending that won them those back to back Cups. Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Bonino, Kunitz, Guentzel, Hagelin, Rust, Sheary, Cullen....Hornqvist was really the only 'big & heavy' they had among their forwards, and the defense was not exceptionally big either, featuring Letang, Schultz, Daley, & Dumoulin...only Cole was really a big hitter on that team's defense.

All I'm saying is that playing heavy hockey is a good thing, in the sense you need to be hard on the puck, win battles down low, and play with intensity and effort. Toronto's stars like Marner, Matthews, & Nylander need to improve in that area. But Toronto has guys who do great at that, just like every other team, in their bottom & top six...Mikheyev, Moore, Hyman, Tavares, Kerfoot, Johnsson. Big hits have little correlation to possession, let alone goals, let alone wins. Toronto's bigger concern should be team defense, having better structure, situational awareness, and playing as a cohesive, team unit, not individual parts. Also, they need Freddie to be big in the playoffs, like Binnington, Holtby, & Murray have all been for their teams. That is a much bigger factor than 'heaviness'.

tl;dr
Heaviness is a factor, and not totally unimportant...but it is not the major factor behind why the Leafs haven't won, and these teams have. For example, Pittsburgh has the most Cups of these teams in recent memory, and was by no means a 'heavy' team. What made these teams successful, beyond their skilled offensive cores, was incredible goaltending, attention to detail & defense throughout the lineup, good situational coaching, things the Leafs have not had Also, the Leafs have come up against Washington, Boston, Boston respectively in the playoffs, without home ice advantage, and pushed each series to 6+ games, all very close. One more win against Boston, and they could've been in the Cup finals easily.
Big and heavy is as much a style of play as it is an attribute. Trevor Moore plays big and heavy despite being 5’10 and less than 200 lbs..

It’s an attitude and a mindset as much as anything else. One that I don’t really see much of on the team.

The game gets tougher in the playoffs and the referees let a lot go. They don’t have a team who wants to play like that and it’s obvious. Obvious to the point Max Domi knows he can run around and chirp all night because nobody wants those problems.

It’s sad.
 

SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
51,853
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2 top elite centers, an elite 2-way winger, a bunch of top notch players all across the team and a pretty good starting goaltender...

...yep setup to fail. Poor guy.
 

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
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Big and heavy is as much a style of play as it is an attribute. Trevor Moore plays big and heavy despite being 5’10 and less than 200 lbs..

It’s an attitude and a mindset as much as anything else. One that I don’t really see much of on the team.

The game gets tougher in the playoffs and the referees let a lot go. They don’t have a team who wants to play like that and it’s obvious. Obvious to the point Max Domi knows he can run around and chirp all night because nobody wants those problems.

It’s sad.
Play like Hyman/Moore, skill like Marner/Nylander.
 

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
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2 top elite centers, an elite 2-way winger, a bunch of top notch players all across the team and a pretty good starting goaltender...

...yep setup to fail. Poor guy.
No GM sets his coach up to fail or he should never GM a team in the NHL again.
Not being on the same page is a different story...
 
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ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
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It is becoming clearer and clearer that the ground work has been laid for Babs to be fired if they make another round 1 exit in the playoffs. I am sure Babs wants to win but my concern is that he might want to win more his way than any other. Still early, we will see.
 

Trapper

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Nov 21, 2013
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It is becoming clearer and clearer that the ground work has been laid for Babs to be fired if they make another round 1 exit in the playoffs. I am sure Babs wants to win but my concern is that he might want to win more his way than any other. Still early, we will see.
Even his team Canada games were a lot of 1-0 2-1 games.
Babcock likes the team to play 0-0. Again, we lack the forecheck and we lack the players to play 0-0. Our goals against have been going up every year. We need to force the other team to make mistakes, strike and get out. We aren't going to out defend, out forecheck and out board battle.
 
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Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
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Even his team Canada games were a lot of 1-0 2-1 games.
Babcock likes the team to play 0-0. Again, we lack the forecheck and we lack the players to play 0-0. Our goals against have been going up every year. We need to force the other team to make mistakes, strike and get out. We aren't going to out defend, out forecheck and out board battle.

You disagree with our coaches attempting to coach our players into generating more zone-time?

Isn't that their job?
 

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
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You disagree with our coaches attempting to coach our players into generating more zone-time?

Isn't that their job?
Zone time is great unless you want it done your way with a compliment of players who don't excel that way.
 

Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
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Burlington
Zone time is great unless you want it done your way with a compliment of players who don't excel that way.

So basically wave the white flag, give up trying to get our players to play on the right side of the puck, and let the players play the way they want...

I can't imagine any coaching staff would find that acceptable, let alone Babcock's.

If professional players are incapable of being coached to play better defensively, then they should be removed from the team.
 

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
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So basically wave the white flag, give up trying to get our players to play on the right side of the puck, and let the players play the way they want...

I can't imagine any coaching staff would find that acceptable, let alone Babcock's.

If professional players are incapable of being coached to play better defensively, then they should be removed from the team.
With the type of players we have, what do you think the best course of action to maximize them is?
Are we heavy? Do you forecheck? Battle hard on the wall? Get pucks in deep? Defend like the 70s Canadiens?

Dubas paid and selected the players. It's too late to change a team. When you answer the first part, does our coach/coaching staff, maximize the sort of NHL game that this collection can play? That's pretty much all that is left. If 20 guys can't become what the coach wants, the 1 guy can change to what the players are.
 
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Loosie

The Eternal Optimist
Jun 14, 2011
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Please use the 'Cox' tag so I can ignore this thread next time.

It's almost like some media member have an agenda against Dubas. Why would a GM setup a coach to fail? It makes zero sense.
 

Blueboy

Registered User
Apr 15, 2019
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2 top elite centers, an elite 2-way winger, a bunch of top notch players all across the team and a pretty good starting goaltender...

...yep setup to fail. Poor guy.
Marner isn’t a 2-way winger, he’s a liability defensively and gets caught napping routinely in the D zone.

I agree with the rest though
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
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Besides running an Olympic team with the very best Canadians in the game, what has Babcock won as a NHL coach?

How many current and previous NHL coaches have won as many Cups as Babcock?

Interesting debate.

How many currently employed NHL coaches have won more Cups than Babcock?

Does 3 X time Cup winner Joel Quenneville in Florida now, make the Panthers the Cup favourites this year due to their past successful coach, even more so after they went out and got him an overpaid $10 mil goalie Bob?

If the Panthers don't win this year is that because of poor coaching despite coach Q sparking resume of past success, or because of player personnel that he was provided?

A coach doesn't go on the ice during games to score goals nor stop pucks as its the players that decide the outcome, so does who is standing on the bench shouting at the Refs really have the biggest outcome on the results or just the easiest scapegoat to blame?

If the Leafs replaced Babcock with Keefe would the past Cup wins number change to suggest that increases Leafs chances of success or are we looking at bringing in Darryl Sutter as the obvious replacement choice?
 

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
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Please use the 'Cox' tag so I can ignore this thread next time.

It's almost like some media member have an agenda against Dubas. Why would a GM setup a coach to fail? It makes zero sense.
Agreed, really makes no sense.

They don't need to set anything up, Babcock seems to be his own worst enemy .
 

Lainehasaweirdface

Registered User
May 14, 2015
856
597
No it hasn't. The stretch pass gets utilized when teams are successfully forchecking them. You notice it more because it's used when a team is taking it to the leafs. The perferd breakout is D to winger with short touch pass to center out of the zone as teams forcheck in ways to take the walls away... Last resort is punt hockey off the glass and out for a reason. In todays NHL teams are trying to force you into playing that way because you end up either turning the puck over in the attempt of ringing it off the glass, take a penalty by shooting the puck over the glass or you just find yourself with the puck brought right back in your zone extending shifts and tiring legs not being able to change.... The stretch pass can quickly change a games momentum where you end up being the forchecking team.

The issue this team has is that they try to skill there way with this need to score every time they rush in the offensive zone instead of establishing working off the cycle, out working the opposition so there skill will shine more often. That's an internal thing for the players to establish consistency putting work ethic before there skill.

Maybe I was being hyperbolic. Babcock does overuse the stretch pass breakout to the detriment of the team though. He’s been a bit better with it this year so far.
 

Dough72

Registered User
Sep 3, 2008
1,937
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With the type of players we have, what do you think the best course of action to maximize them is?
Are we heavy? Do you forecheck? Battle hard on the wall? Get pucks in deep? Defend like the 70s Canadiens?

Dubas paid and selected the players. It's too late to change a team. When you answer the first part, does our coach/coaching staff, maximize the sort of NHL game that this collection can play? That's pretty much all that is left. If 20 guys can't become what the coach wants, the 1 guy can change to what the players are.
they are already one of the most creative open ice freewheeling stretch-pass teams in hockey. The coach doesn't criticize his team for ignoring auston matthews crumpled on the ice in the corner. Or pretending they don't see max domi chasing johnson and kapanen around all game. Says they'll punish the other team with their powerplay instead. He just finished making his final preseason cuts for the team and cut every single truculent player who showed up. Went with undersized pond-hockey players instead. So I don't think we're in any danger of Babcock turning anyone into a puck battling meat-head the players hae a ton of leash to my eye. It's been the opposite if anything Babcock can talk about "defence" and "veteran teams" all he likes but he keeps putting rookies and youngsters in key spots and I have no memories of him benching someone for defensive mistakes or not fighting for pucks. He is the polar opposite of a 1970s coach.
 
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