Prospect Info: Hartford Wolf Pack (AHL)/Maine Mariners (ECHL) Thread *Part X*

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Fireonk

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Jan 10, 2006
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Gilmour was one of the worst defensive defenseman I've seen in a long, long, time when he played some for the big club. He is awful. I've accepted that most of our fan base likes clueless, small, puck moving defenseman like DeAngelo who are never in the right place in the defense zone and can't move anybody in the crease. Worse yet, they will come up with useless, geek stats to try and counter that analysis. Just open your eyes. He sucks also.

So you get called out by multiple people about your post and instead of admitting you are wrong or coming back with a well thought out argument you decide to segway into your anti-DeAngelo agenda?

You aren't here for discussion. Go write a blog if you don't want the back and forth of everyone's opinions.
 

Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
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HARTFORD VETERAN FORWARDS


Osminator said:
@Beacon can't wait to read about your devastating views on Bobby Butler... black hole on all ends and wasted veteran roster spot. .

Wasn't going to start with him, but why not. Bobby Butler played parts of several seasons in the NHL and is only 31 so the hope was that he'll come in and be one of the leaders on the team. Instead, he's pretty much a waste. He's not bad, he's just kind of there. But the whole reason to bring in non-prospect veterans is so they could lead the team to the playoffs and act as a steadying force on the ice when the kids get rattled. You get none of that from this guy. He's obviously playing hockey because he's getting $157,500 as an AHLer and would get $25k as a Wal-Mart greeter.

Another similar player like that was Michael Lindqvist. He was a leading scorer per game on his team in the SHL, so the hope was that he'll come in and lead the way in Hartford. But he just floated out there, not doing much of anything. He got a ton of ice time early on, but was always the least noticeable guy on the ice. It's possible he could've picked up his game, but he just seemed miserable in the United States, which I believe is the reason for his on ice play, so he went home almost immediately.

Veterans Peter Holland, Cole Schneider and Matt Beleskey are quality AHL vets that every team needs and can play an occasional NHL game, but not much more than that on a playoff bound NHL team. They can play for the Rangers because what does it matter how you're losing by multiple goals every game. Shawn O'Donnell seems to always be there for some reason. He adds size I guess. Not sure what's his purpose on the Pack except that they need players. Wish they signed a quality vet instead of him. Another Cole Schneider instead of O'Donnell may be the difference between playoffs and golf for the Pack.

Another veteran is Steven Fogarty. I didn't like where his game was in the BCHL and college, but I did note that anyone can exceed expectations by improving until the age of 26 or fail to meet them by stopping to improve at 21. Fogarty clearly falls into the former category. On the day he turned 24, he was a bottom-6 guy in Hartford, not particularly noticeable, like the Jesper Fast of the AHL. So you figure, that's it, how much better can he get? Turns out, much better. He improved leaps and bounds last season, far beyond what you see from a 24 year old, and then got even better this year. He's big, smart, confident, a leader on the ice (maybe off too, I don't know). That said, he's turning 26 at the end of the season. How much more improvement do we get? We'll see, I guess. He's a good AHL player, solid at everything, but again, what's his dominant skill that is an addition to the team. Defense? What's defense specifically? Shot blocking? Forechecking? Crease clearing? Board battles? One on one D? He's not a bad AHLer at any of these, and pretty good at board battles, but looking at him, you don't think, "wow, he's great at X!" And to add to an NHL team, you must be dominant in the AHL. In Hartford he's facing Ryan Bourque. In the NHL, it would be Crosby or at least JT Miller. His creativity seems limited. I just don't see a real NHL career here. But then again, I didn't expect him to improve this much over the last 1.5 seasons, he could be a true late-bloomer.

Peter Holland, Cole Schneider and Matt Beleskey are quality AHL vets that every team needs and can play an occasional NHL game, but not much more than that on a playoff bound NHL team. They can play for the Rangers because what does it how how you're losing by multiple goals every game. Shawn O'Donnell seems to always be there for some reason. He adds size I guess. Not sure what's his purpose on the Pack except that they need players. Wish they signed a quality vet instead of him. Another Cole Schneider instead of O'Donnell may be the difference between playoffs and golf for the Pack.

Boo Nieves
is a good AHLer, but probably a marginal NHLer because of his limited creativity. It's more or less the same deal as with Hrivik where he can transport the puck and look good for a second before running out of steam and not having the creativity or the smarts to determine whether to pass, to shoot or to stickhandle, and his quick rush turns into nothing. That's why you really don't see this from him in the NHL where he's told to keep it simple and try to rely on his size and speed to keep up in the NHLer. Playoff teams in the NHL need more than that. He's turning 25 in a few days, so not sure how much better he'll get.
 
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nyr2k2

Can't Beat Him
Jul 30, 2005
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I generally agree with all of that, @Beacon.

I think Lindqvist failed because he did not have the time and space to operate that he did in Sweden. Had he chosen to stuck it out, he may have been able to learn to play in tighter quarters at a faster pace. He's already back in Sweden and I think he'll become a star there.

Meskanen, I think he could make an appearance this year. I think his game is mature enough to handle it.
 
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Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
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HARTFORD PROSPECTS

Unlike Lindqvist, another Scandinavian Ville Meskanen is clearly not miserable in America. He is not particularly gifted offensively, but he's smart and hard working which results in points offensively and useful play the rest of the ice. Goes for rebounds, uses his body effectively, quick release shot. Almost always on the first or second line. Hustles hard. Good improvement from the start of the season. Still has not developed that one skill that gets him to the NHL, but displays pretty good NHLness where even if he screws up, he recovers fast enough to make things not so bad in the end. Won't be a liability if called up to the Rangers. That said, he won't stick around just yet. Dark horse to make it next season. Tough to predict how much he improves because he turned 23 this Fall, but it's his first AHL season, so I would guess the best is yet to come. May turn into a spark plug role player whom fans love.

Another possible spark plug role player is Gabriel Fontaine. For a guy who doesn't dipsy-doodle, he's extremely visible. You can't miss #37 out there unless you're just not looking at the screen. A bit of a young Callahan to his game, though not nearly as gifted offensively. He gets his points by working hard - scored one goal with his knees on the ice, but never giving up. Quality shot blocker. Was a bit slow to start the season, but seems to have improved since then. Probably needs to get a little better at skating if he wants that million dollar NHL paycheck. Fontaine reminds me of the 90's Knicks - anything for a play, even for a small advantage in the middle of a nothing game. Has gotten more confident as the season went on, and the coaches are more confident in him, giving him first line duty sometimes and rewarding him with PP time as well. Not close to the NHL yet, but he's only 21. He's not a throw away prospect.

Tim Gettinger is a quality AHL rookie, but I am not sure why he was called up to the NHL. Big and confident, very smart for his age, engaged every part of the ice, but he doesn't look like he's an NHLer at this moment at the age of 20. He has years of improvement ahead of him and needs to add something to his repertoire before he thinks of the NHL.

The most improved prospect is Ryan Gropp. He was God awful early on. Just terrible. I thought he'll be in the ECHL long term. He goes to Maine and it was like magic happened. If you watch him play in October and December/January, it's like 2 different players. One is horrendous, the other one is fast, smart, hard working. Early season notes on him: "Gropp just not good at the AHL level. Tries but fails to do anything skilled... Gropp making basic mistakes... Gropp f-s up again... Gropp with another bad play." It was like that the whole way. He comes back and creates chances and forces the other team to take penalties. Good speed, good smarts, excellent on the forecheck. He needed to adjust his game to the pros, and the ECHL worked like magic for him. I know the ECHL is viewed as a graveyard for prospects, but it clearly wasn't that for Gropp. Whatever the coaches down there said, it worked because he went from a total bum to a quality player who gets shifts with guys like Lias and Vinni. We all gave up on him, but maybe not yet. Not saying he'll be anything good, but not ready to give up just yet.

Another ECHLer is Ty Ronning, but he is not an AHL player. Being a prima donna in the Juniors was not productive to developing his game and now he has to do it 3 years late in the ECHL.

Lias Andersson is either the world's luckiest person or the smartest guy in the AHL. After getting sent down, he looked awful. But then picked up a point. Not very fast even by AHL standards. Last week he was badly outskated when trying to catch up to a guy who was just a step in front of him going on a breakaway. By the time the guy reached Tokarski, Lias couldn't even reach him with a stick. Looked lazy out there for his first few games, and not just the way he always looks lazy because that's his game. He actually looked upset he was sent down. Didn't try to come back to make the defensive play several times. Didn't move his legs properly. Has a bit of an a-hole personality I suspect. It works both ways - on the one hand he is mad he's in Hartford and doesn't go out of his way to prove he deserves a callup the way Vinni does. On the other hand, it's a positive because he doesn't take crap from opposing players and will stand up for himself and his teammates. Probably not a star in the NHL due to his speed, but will most certainly be a good NHLer because his brain is so far ahead of others his age.

The best player in Hartford is Vinni Lettieri. He's not just the best player there this year, he's the best all-around player Hartford had since Newb left. In fact, better than Newb. He's just amazing out there. His worst games, he looks like an AHL first liner. His best games, he looks like a father toying around with his kids. The only down side to Vinni is that he's frequently too unselfish and chooses to pass the puck to AHL scrubs instead of using his terrific shot. He needs to recognize that he's the best player on the team and play accordingly. On the up side, there is not a whiff of prima donna to his game. He hustles back on defense, fights along the boards, goes for the garbage rebounds in the crease (offensive or defensive), just does everything. He's good at stickhandling, forechecking, shooting, being a steadying vet presence, etc. He plays in every situation: 5 on 5, first PP, first PK, OT, everything.

Vinni didn't do well in the NHL to start this season so everyone just gave up on him, but the guy is still 23 years old. I know normally he shouldn't improve a lot at this age, but I think we may have an exception here. He's every bit a late bloomer. He's taking vast steps forward. He was much better last year at the end of the season than at the beginning, and he's better now than he was in March. This is someone who's been taking huge steps forward his whole career and this season is no different. We are talking about someone who was a meh high school at the time when guys his age were getting drafted. Then he improved enough to play college hockey, but was outscored by a defenseman named Brady Skjei. He went from a pretty mediocre bottom 6 his sophomore year to a first liner who earned an NHL contract as a senior. He had a solid, but unspectacular start to his rookie season in Hartford, and now is a spectacular AHLer. His game keeps taking leaps forward, I doubt he's at the end of his development curve. I mean, it's possible, who knows, but I see him as someone who's likely to keep on improving until he's 25-26 years old.
 
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Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
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I'll repost the review of defensemen since I spent 2 hours writing it and then it got buried in the outdated thread.

The best prospect in Hartford (who's there the whole season, so excluding Lias) is Libor Hajek. I love the kid. The very reason I jumped in to write all of this is because of Hajek. There's no way he doesn't have an NHL career unless he tells coaches to screw off (or has something crazy happens like Corey Hirsch's mental illness). Last year I wrote that Pionk will be a player coaches love and will use a lot, but fans will be very mixed on him because he does tiny things right that nobody notices unless you keep rewinding his every shift. That's how Hajek is, but a different style. He is just smart, does all he small things right, gets himself into the right position, able to recover if he makes an error, just look effortless. Ultimate NHLness for an AHL rookie.

Early in the season, he was not using his body right. You saw reports that he was good defensively, but he was good defensively as a Junior player: skate up to the opposing player and use your stick to make the defensive play. That works against teenagers who mostly will never be good enough to play in the ECHL, but it doesn't work (at least not every time) in the AHL. On occasion he'd get undressed 1 on 1 trying to defend the Junior way. But Hajek displayed very strong coachability and his negative became a positive. He improved his body positioning from D+ to A- in less than half a season. On occasion, he'll throw a hit along the boards, not because he's a tough guy, but because that's the right play. The hits resemble the 90s much more than the girly-man shoves of the current era. They aren't Chelios slam hits, but when Hajek hits, he finishes his checks instead of mildly shoving the guy. That doesn't mean he's a hitter, it just means he's now a smart player who knows whether to use his stick to break up a play, to hit a guy or to position his body a certain way. Hajek, and not all those defense-first blueliners, is the best defender in Hartford. He's also been an effective penalty killer from the start.

Early in the season, he played mostly with Bigras, the best defenseman in Hartford, because the coaches obviously felt he needs adult supervision on the ice. Now he plays with Gilmour because he IS the adult supervision on the ice. Gilmour does some crazy things in Hartford, totally reckless on the rush, and Hajek is there to look like the vet. If you watch them play and don't know who is #3 and who's #43, you'll assume the 25 year old veteran is Hajek.

To start the season, he was basically useless up front and didn't even try to do anything once he crossed the offensive blue line. As time went on, he's taken more rushes. He still lacks the offensive creativity to be a scoring defenseman, but he can be good in transition. His offense may take a significant step forward next year if he keeps improving. But for now, Bigras is a better defenseman because Hajek is great only on 2/3 of the ice and shows only occasional flashes in the opposing third.

Hajek just looks like an NHLer in the way he goes about his business on the ice. If you watch enough AHL hockey over enough years, after a while you start to recognize that Guy A will definitely get called up and succeed, but Guy B is just a quality AHLer, but not much more. I can't predict how good he'll be, but I'd be stunned if he's not playing in the NHL long-term in his prime. Best guess would be as a good second pair guy who gets a ton of minutes from the coach while half the fan base whines about him. He's not NHL-ready yet because he needs to develop a bit more creativity and confidence with the puck. That's not purely an offensive thing, you need to be able to stickhandle out of your own zone when 2-3 forwards are charging at you and there's no lane to pass the puck to a teammate. Some offensive participation is nice too. But it's clear that this was not the goal of the first half of his rookie season. He will eventually pick up that skill too, but for now, some more time in the AHL is needed.

The most overrated guy in Hartford is Ryan Lindgren. There is a general perception that he's an inch away from the NHL, Hartford's best defenseman who's ready for a chance in the NHL. That is wrong. Lindgren is probably the worst of Hartford's 6 regular defensemen (Bigras, Hajek, Gilmour, O'Gara, Crawley being the other 5). That doesn't mean that he's bad player or a bad prospect. Hartford has a strong blue line and all 6 regular could play in the top 4 in the AHL. But if he gets called up to the NHL at any point soon, it will be only because the Rangers want to give him a chance to find out what it takes to play in the NHL. He'd never get called up in the 2019 calendar year to a playoff team that actually needs the points more than to develop the future.

Lindgren is a good skater for a defensive guy, solid speed, good edgework. Not a speedster, but good enough. Keeps all his plays very simple, which is what draws comparisons to Mike Sauer. But let's keep in mind that Sauer didn't make the NHL until he was 23. Sure, his injuries didn't help, but Sauer was in no way ready at 20, and neither is Lindgren now. I'd also say that Sauer was a better prospect at the same age than Lindgren today. While he is perceived as a defensive specialist, he still allows AHL forwards to occasionally blow past him. I am not saying we shouldn't follow him as a legit prospect, but he's not on par with Hajek, not even close. I mean, sure, if Hajek stops developing at 21 (as many do) and Lindgren keeps taking big steps forward until he's 26 (as some do), Lindgren could turn out to be a massively better player eventually. That said, based on where they are today (they are only a week apart age-wise), Hajek is a much better player/prospect.

The player Lindgren should be compared to in terms of who's the better prospect is Brandon Crawley. For some reason, Lindgren is viewed as an amazing find, while Craw is, at best, an afterthought. Between the two, Crawley is a slightly better player, but Lindgren is a year younger, almost to a day, so in my mind they're roughly equivalent prospects at this point. Both get PK time, both are generally solid defensively, but Crawley is a bit more mobile and confident (thanks at least in part to having an extra year in the AHL under his belt). That said, his points are mostly a matter of luck. He's not a driver of anything offensively or even a transitional mid-ice player. He's a defensive player who occasionally can skate up with the puck, and sometimes that results in passing the puck to a more creative player who makes a goal happen, so Craw gets his occasional point. Craw played with Hajek a bit in December, but they had to split up so Hajek could play with Gilmour to settle down the ice. Craw isn't close to the NHL. He, as Lindgren, can get very sheltered few minutes with very simple assignments just to show him what the NHL looks like, but he's not sticking in the NHL in the near future.

Frankly, I doubt we'll see both Crawley and Lindgren make it - I'd be happy if one of them turned into a solid third pair defenseman, but who knows how their development curve turns out.

Quick review of Rob O'Gara: he is what he is - a very good AHL defenseman or an NHL 7D. At the AHL level, he's mobile, involved, confident. He looks exactly how you'd expect him to look as a player who spent time in the NHL, who may be back in the NHL, but who also will be spending a bunch of time in the AHL. For Hartford to make the playoffs, players like him are necessary, so I'm glad he was included in the trade.

Here comes the first review that will make your heads explode - John Gilmour. I really don't like him. Incidentally, he's not bad at defense, he's bad at offense (what did I say about heads exploding?) By now, he can actually get in the right position defensively to be solid, but when he stickhandles, it's insane. The number of turnovers early in the season was incredible. He's told to keep it simple in the NHL, so you don't see it, but it's just pure recklessness in the AHL for Gilmour. When I say he's bad at offense, I mean if you're going to skate up with the puck, you should succeed at transporting and dumping/passing it a lot more often than you cause bad, blatant turnovers. An occasional mistake like that by a puck carrier is an acceptable price to pay. That's not what we see with Gilmour. There were periods, even games, when most of his puck carrying attempts resulted in something bad happening. It got better as the season went on, but the guy is 26 at the end of this season, how much more improvement do we look for next year? The problem with Gilmour is that his main skill is not transferable to the NHL. As much as he has problems turning over the puck when he carries it in the AHL, now imagine he is doing it against NHL All Stars, not against some guys who are 3 days away from the ECHL. He's someone who can get called up and hold his own keeping things very simple because of his speed, but he will never be able to add something to an NHL team because what he does best comes with a turnover price tag that's way too high.

The best defenseman in Hartford is Chris Bigras, not Gilmour. I am not sure why he's not viewed as a prospect here, but he's still 23 (almost 24) and already a very good all around AHL defenseman who's clearly above average everywhere across he 200 feet. at the AHL level, he's good everywhere and at everything, though he does make an occasional mistake (as is common for AHLers), but unfortunately not dominant at anything, which is what's keeping him in the AHL. What does he add to the NHL? He needs a particular skill that an NHL team says, "this is what we need." Today if he got called up, he could come up and do nothing special - good or bad. After game 1, people would like him because he got called up and nothing bad happened, but after 15 games, everyone will wonder what's his role on an NHL team. Bigras is towards the end of his prime development years, but some players keep showing a lot of improvement until the age of 25-26, for ex., Steven Fogarty (more on him later). Depending on whether his learning curve ends at 23 or at 26, he will be either a 4A player or a third pair NHLer.

The one prospect who's not really a prospect is Sean Day. I know people will say he's only 20 (21 in 2 days), so how do you know he can't improve? Ok, but how did you know that the fat, short, uncoordinated kid in your high school wouldn't be getting an NCAA D1 basketball scholarship? Day is just awful. You watch him play and you wonder whether he did this before. He looks like that kid you played with who was so bad, you just told him to stand there while everyone else did their thing. He hardly ever has anyone passing to him. If he comes to possess the puck, he's obviously told to quickly pass it to someone, anyone. Somehow he fails at that.

He's barely more mobile on the ice than an orange cone (that's another head explosion for you). No, he's not good at skating, he's terrible at it. Skating in pro hockey is not Olympic speed skating where you just move your legs and get somewhere first. I'm sure Day would be excellent at that, but this is hockey, not speed skating. You need to think on your feet in high-level pro hockey. He stands there thinking before moving his feet, then he does the wrong thing when he does move his feet. It's bad.

One game, he held the puck all alone near the goalie when Leedahl fell around the faceoff dot. Day looks up, thinks and passes to Leedahl who's sitting on his butt. The announcer goes, "Leedahl falls... [silence] but Sean Day decides to pass to him anyway." It's comical how incredible that was. I had to rewind just to be sure I saw what I saw. Day's thinking speed is out of this world bad.

Day is playing in the AHL now only because Craw is out. He desperately needs to go back to the ECHL and stay there. I'm not sure if he'll ever be able to keep up in the AHL, but I'm certain he's not going to come close to the NHL no matter how much you tell me he's only 21 years old.
 

Don Chytil

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Jan 14, 2010
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HARTFORD PROSPECTS

Great write-ups Beacon, glad to have you back on the boards.

Are your comments on Lias' attitude (mad he's in Hartford, etc.) based on any interviews or comments that you've seen? Or just what you can tell in his demeanor from watching the games? I'm genuinely curious about how he's handling the way the team has handled his development this year (from saying he needs 1st line minutes, to calling him up to play a limited role, then back down again). Although I would guess Lias is probably happier about burning a year off his ELC than the fans are :D
 
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Osminator

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Dec 28, 2005
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@Beacon
Unreal write-up !!! Extremly well analysed, and you already had me when with Bobby Butler's Wal-Mart line lol

O'Donnell at least hits, grinds and drops the gloves when needed... Dawson Leedahl on the other hand though... oof. Other than being a PK guy, brings 0 to the table.

I guess a good mix of AAAA vets and top prospects on the first 3 lines require the O'Donnells, Leedahls and St. Amants of the hockey universe for a solid 4th line in the AHL. After all, the A is developmental league at the highest level for prospects that don't have a Petterson or Dahlin name tag on the jersey.

One note on the Dmen... I was super excited for Day to prove all the sceptics wrong, but goodness, he plays the game in slow motion, 3 moves behind the rest and - surprising to me because I thought this was marque strength - seems to be skating in ankle-deep mud wearing concrete boots. Slooow.

Not that I would call him slow, but Lias Andersson is many times getting outskated/outhustled by AHL mid-range players... unlike a Lettieri or a Gilmour, who's skating is way above and beyond the AHL.

Dustin Tokarski deserves a contract extension already... throw $300K at him for AHL money. He's been the best veteran goalie the Pack have had in more than a decade and while some knock him, he could be the backup on a number of NHL teams. Marek Mazanec is too much hot or cold for my taste, either gets killed out there or steals a game with crazy saves... a little consistency would help.

I watch all WP weekend games (Fridays, Sats, Suns) and only miss out on the weekday games (due to time difference to Austria and having to be fit for work the next day).

I've even considered buying single Mariners ECHL streamed games on night the NYR and HWP are off.

Again, @Beacon ... I tip my hat to you!
 

Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
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One note on the Dmen... I was super excited for Day to prove all the sceptics wrong, but goodness, he plays the game in slow motion, 3 moves behind the rest and - surprising to me because I thought this was marque strength - seems to be skating in ankle-deep mud wearing concrete boots. Slooow.

Honestly I thought I would face a riot for saying he has mobility issues. Every report says good skater, but mobility is more than skating. It's getting where you need to go and if your steering wheel isn't there, the great wheels won't help.
 
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Mikos87

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Mar 19, 2002
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Honestly I thought I would face a riot for saying he has mobility issues. Every report says good skater, but mobility is more than skating. It's getting where you need to go and if your steering wheel isn't there, the great wheels won't help.
.

Kid's slow if you know what I mean. It's not the legs, it's the mind. I posted about it his post draft year, he just doesn't process what's around him. Add to that the fitness issues, then you have a write-off.

Athletically, he's got wheels, but there's been a lot of the "huh, what just happened" when he's on the ice. The reaction time is below that of what you would want.
 

Amazing Kreiderman

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Apr 11, 2011
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Toh-may-toe. Toh-mah-toe.

Finland is part of Scandinavian Peninsula.

Nope

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