jetsforever
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Value of: Hardest position to trade for?
- Thread starter maplepred
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1989
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Perhaps "top-5 at his position" Lidstrom counts over Datsyuk or Zetterberg. I'd take Pronger over McDonald or Getzlaf in 2007. Doughty has a stronger case than Keith or Chara in this category but all are fairly balanced rosters.
It's a cyclical argument though - clearly both positions are incredibly essential for a successful team. Again, I do point to the teams who have to have an excess of forward talent in order to make up for a lack of a #1 D (Carolina, Pittsburgh '17) but it's very difficult for the opposite scenario to occur where a wealth of defensive talent can cover for missing #1C talent - but I'm not certain this is due to any simple argument with regards to "#1Cs must have more value than #1Ds!"
This discrepancy can be explained, due in part to several factors such as a) it's difficult to acquire more than a single true #1D on any given team, b) system play oriented around top-6 defenders where they can cover for deficiencies on the ice in lieu of forward ability, whereas stronger centre and forward depth (and leadership in the forward ranks) in general can mask a poor defensive core through committed team play. If any team is lacking #1C talent but has a Pronger-Niedermayer-esque pairing and a deep defence, having a Selke-level second-line centre such as Kesler leading the forward group. But even then, admittedly this scenario almost never happens let alone results in a Cup because it's just easier for GMs to assemble a team with a #1C and a #1D for versatility and have a coach plan a balanced system vs a back-loaded system.
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Down year, rental and arguably a 1B at the time of his departure. Thing is he could have been dealt for a 1st/ 2nd and nobody would really bat an eye. Goes to show how wonky the goalie market is.
maplepred
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Even if we are not necessarily talking about price, doughty and Tavares. I just used them as examples.
Let's use the best ever centre in his prime with Wayne Gretzky. The best ever defenseman in his prime with bobby orr and the best ever goalie in his prime in terry sawchuk. Which one is the hardest to acquire in a trade?? Imagine them all in their prime at the same time. Is Gretzky the obvious choice? Or do you take someone that makes Erik Karlsson look like a minor leaguer with Orr? Or how about the probably fastest and most electrifying goalie ever. Imagine sawchuck with huge pads, a mask and 82 game seasons for more wins and shutouts??
Is Gretzky the hands down choice though no matter what? Who is second choice?
Let's use the best ever centre in his prime with Wayne Gretzky. The best ever defenseman in his prime with bobby orr and the best ever goalie in his prime in terry sawchuk. Which one is the hardest to acquire in a trade?? Imagine them all in their prime at the same time. Is Gretzky the obvious choice? Or do you take someone that makes Erik Karlsson look like a minor leaguer with Orr? Or how about the probably fastest and most electrifying goalie ever. Imagine sawchuck with huge pads, a mask and 82 game seasons for more wins and shutouts??
Is Gretzky the hands down choice though no matter what? Who is second choice?
Fig
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Sorry. Signed, Flames fan.
TBH, it seems like top 4 RD shake loose a bit. Some how though, Oilers haven't landed any and Flames have landed 2 (Hams) with a borderline 3rd in Stone.
Trouba seems to be available, but I'm not sure Oilers have the right assets to pry him out.
Personally I think it's:
#1C
#1D
Due to value and cap hit. Then
2/3 D
1st line wing
1G
2C
2nd line wing
Cap space/Cap dump*
Cap space is also often a factor in the acquisition of the other positions.
As an Oiler fan: #1D, no question.
Reasoning is that there are more centers in the league who qualify as a #1 center or can fake it reasonably well than are defenders capable of towing that line.
You can also insulate a #1 center who isn't quite a Crosby or McDavid with good wingers and/or a strong second line center. It's a lot harder to do that with defensemen.
Reasoning is that there are more centers in the league who qualify as a #1 center or can fake it reasonably well than are defenders capable of towing that line.
You can also insulate a #1 center who isn't quite a Crosby or McDavid with good wingers and/or a strong second line center. It's a lot harder to do that with defensemen.
Shady Machine
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(just giving you a good ribbing - very unique circumstances)
Lord Stan 2020
Elite fan
i thought was different honestly and was gonna say victor hedman for his deal would be a hard guy to get
thewookie1
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I'd say 1C and 1D are almost equal. You have to have at least one of the two to go anywhere. Without a 1C you need a pair of solid 2Cs and a 1D with help (Nashville) Or if you have the 1C you'd need a solid Top 4 of dmen.
maplepred
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I think with the expansion draft some goalies got traded under market value as you could only protect one. Same thing with elliott and Andersen.
Liferleafer
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The Old Master
come and take it.
This is no brainer.
Top Tier #1C by quite a bit.
You have to be bad and draft in the top 3 or 4 in the right year to get one of them. Even drafting #1 overall doesn't guarantee anything. (ex. Edmonton)
The top tier #1D tend to be developed as much as drafted highly. (ex. Weber) Many are taken in the first round, but its not obvious which ones pan out. (ex. Doughty, Subban, Suter, Karlsson)
A top tier #1C is impossible to get without drafting one. They are normally the most hyped player in the draft (Tavares, Crosby, McDavid, Matthews).
Top Tier #1C by quite a bit.
You have to be bad and draft in the top 3 or 4 in the right year to get one of them. Even drafting #1 overall doesn't guarantee anything. (ex. Edmonton)
The top tier #1D tend to be developed as much as drafted highly. (ex. Weber) Many are taken in the first round, but its not obvious which ones pan out. (ex. Doughty, Subban, Suter, Karlsson)
A top tier #1C is impossible to get without drafting one. They are normally the most hyped player in the draft (Tavares, Crosby, McDavid, Matthews).
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Johnnybegood13
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A former NHL GM once told me a great #1C creates excitement and puts butts in the seats but it takes a great #1D to consistently contend for cups.
Defense... There are fewer spots on the roster, and it's more difficult to shelter them. You've got so many forward spots, even at centre you can play them third or fourth line and the ice time is less than 3rd pair D.
It's much less risky to play someone at forward and hope they develop into more than it is to do the same on defense. Goaltending is just wonky because there are so few spots. If there aren't enough buyers, as frequently happens, goaltenders' value will drop.
There are always enough buyers for defense. Enough roster spots that there are always many teams that want to, and have the space to improve there, but not enough spots that developing them isn't a risk.
It's much less risky to play someone at forward and hope they develop into more than it is to do the same on defense. Goaltending is just wonky because there are so few spots. If there aren't enough buyers, as frequently happens, goaltenders' value will drop.
There are always enough buyers for defense. Enough roster spots that there are always many teams that want to, and have the space to improve there, but not enough spots that developing them isn't a risk.
Redline
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Cleatus
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#1 centers, and top pairing right handed defensemen are basically impossible to obtain unless you're trading with Boston... You'll even get them for a heavy discount in this regard.
Just going from the Johansen/Jones trade I'd say #1D are going to be harder though off the cuff I would have said #1C.
there you have a #1C traded for a young D with #1D upside. Not an established guy. If you want to dispute Johansen's status as a #1C or the quality, fine, but he was closer to that than Jones was to being a #1D.
there you have a #1C traded for a young D with #1D upside. Not an established guy. If you want to dispute Johansen's status as a #1C or the quality, fine, but he was closer to that than Jones was to being a #1D.
Rorschach
Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
