Podcast (Audio) Hamilton: People Are Interested In Buying The Sabres

[TehDoak]

Again, don't disagree with any of this as possibilities.

For item 1, they cut VERY early in the COVID experience, so I do think they went scorched earth with the team early, not knowing what was coming.

For item 2, I do think they know they need a new stadium for the Bills and renovations for the Sabres. The new stadium takes precedent, so I think they are going in order.

For item 3, I'm always looking at the simplest answer. They spend winters in Florida. 8 Bills games are a lot easier to make than 41 Sabres games. It'll be telling if they attend the outdoor game vs Toronto, and RJ's last call.



I think it's a lot simpler than you are making this out to be. Pull the job titles off and just look at what the front office people do.

Adams: oversees the entire operations, go between for the organization and the Pegula's, front man for the organization, offers general direction to the front office.

Karmanos: oversees scouting, player development, analysts, and the Amerks.

Now, match the job titles to what they are doing: President of Hockey Operations, General Manager.

It's clear that Karmanos is filling to role of GM, and Adams is the President. In that way, the team has proper management, and the Pegula's have someone they trust in Adams.

We don't know what is happening behind the scenes obviously. It could be they are simply slicing up regular GM duties. Adams seems to be more involved in the day to day than a traditional team president would be, though he could simply start manning the phones when a camera crew is there.

To both of your points-

I do think Botterill was somewhat of a puppet GM. The Pegula's felt that they were misled by Tim Murray and the direction the franchise would go in, and wanted somebody to come in that would do what the Pegula's thought best and wouldn't put up much of a fight. I think it's telling that Tim Murray now races horses in Florida and Botterill is an AGM (Murray was close to a legit psycho in addition to being reckless + Pegula's probably badmouthed him like crazy in league circles). The Sabres continued to fail and the Sabres mistakes continued to mount so Botterill was their next fall guy. Kevyn Adams was put in because he was dirt cheap and would do what the Pegula's said to. I do totally agree that no other NHL team would ever consider him for a GM position. He's woefully unqualified for it. The results haven't been horrible though.

Hearing what Botterill had to say after trading RoR sounded so much like he needed any reason to justify it. He said something along the lines of "well he's 28 and our core is more 18-21 so he doesn't really fit with our timeline any longer" was such utter BS. It sounded like he just came up with something instead of saying "well the Pegula's didn't like his end of season press conference and wanted him gone before he was due a 7.5m bonus at midnight". I heard zero conviction in his voice that he actually wanted to trade him. This is just one example I'm bringing up for why I feel like Botterill was a puppet GM.

Botterill was a trainwreck. There's no way around that. But to see the level of involvement that the Pegula's have at every level of decisions in the NHL seems telling, and leads me to believe that a lot of it was their own doing.

Of course, I could be dead wrong about this. It's mostly based off of Kim Pegula's interview with The Athletic, scenes from Behind Blue and Gold, and re-listening to some old Botterill interviews.

Every GM under Pegula has stated they talk to Terry daily. That's not normal.

No disagreement with the non-bolded.
The bolded is speculative. Last year they were spending 90% of the cap, and in 2019-20 spending to the cap.

They are effectively below the cap floor this season with only a cheap (cash wise) LTIR contract (Boychuk) putting them above. 20-21 appears to have been one last ditch attempt to make it work with Eichel/Reinhart. It would be very difficult to spend less on player salaries this year.

Releasing Botterill and replacing with Adams are two separate decisions / actions. I think it would have been equally dysfunctional to retain someone (i.e., Botterill) who wouldn't execute a directive, for which there apparently was no negotiable compromise, and for whom there was no alternative lateral move, nor feasible demotion.

I'd very much like to hear an insider account of what happened in the days leading up to Botterill firing and Adams hiring. From an outsiders perspective, what appears to have happened is the Pegula's told him he had to fire X% of the staff, and Botterill pushed back/refused. When that happened, Pegula's options for hiring were limited, because it wasn't just GM/Scouts that were being let go, it was long term Sabres staffers that wouldn't traditionally be part of a front office purge. Adams appears to been in the right place at the right time and was willing to be a hatchet man in exchange for the GM role.

I just don't see Karmanos having a GM-level role with the Sabres.

Using the EF wording, the seat of power with the Sabres is with Adams. Karmanos has input into the decision making process. But, Adams is the guy making the final call on things.

Yeah. I certainly don't think its a clear Adams President/Karmonos GM split. I think it's more Adams is likely doing the GM jobs he likes while Karmonos is doing some of the heavy lifting in the background.

You guys act like the Pegulas, a family with a B next to their illions, are house poor.

The Pegula's aren't poor by any stretch. However, I think its obvious they are done burning through cash for this hockey team.

 

[haseoke39]

The Sabres are a bad hockey franchise to own other than for ego purposes. You might make money on capital appreciation (as NHL franchises remain scarce) but get killed on the operating side. The fan base is strong but only at a certain price point based on the quality of the team. The metro area has 1.2 million people, making it one of the smallest markets in the NHL Median household income is US$60 K on top of that. The TV numbers show it is a rabid fan base and good for those loyal fans but the fan base is not deep and the money is not there for US$100 tickets to sit at a game.

What continues to give the market some strength is you have 450,000 people in the Niagara region on the other side of the border. You have close to another 1 million once you start counting Hamilton-Burlington and household incomes closer to $100 K with a clear rising trajectory as people get priced out of the city of Toronto and move.

I realize nobody will like this in Buffalo, and I'm not even sure it can be sold to the NHL and players, but a regional franchise (Niagara Sabres anyone) would secure a better long-term future for the Sabres. I think they should split games between both sides of the border.

Is it doable in the NHL constitution? Unclear. But the facts on the ground don't look great for the Sabres in Buffalo long-term if you ask me. You can talk Bills all you want but that's a totally different experience of committing to eight games and mostly on Sundays.

What would the arena be on the Canadian side?

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

[QUOTE"The Pegula's aren't poor by any stretch. However, I think its obvious they are done burning through cash for this hockey team.[/QUOTE]

This is all that matters, really. They can have $100 B in personal wealth. If they don't want to dip into to subsidize franchise, this team has problems unless they can be cash-flow positive.

 

[Buffaloed]

Every GM under Pegula has stated they talk to Terry daily. That's not normal.

It becomes part of their normal morning ablutions. For some, the bathroom is the reading room, for Sabres GM's it's the TerryCom room.
Terry: what's all that splashing I hear in the background?
Jason: It's an old movie, they're bombing Pearl Harbor.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

What would the arena be on the Canadian side?

What would the arena be on the Canadian side?

Build one in the 50 mile/80-kilometre territory, see if First Ontario Centre falls in their territory (as it is being renovated), expand First Meridien in St. Catherines. I do think if you are in St. Catherines, you get fewer people willing to travel from major parts of Toronto. Hamilton really opens up the north and east end of Toronto for any team because Highway 407 takes you right to the game. I would say from Vaughan north of the city, Hamilton is easier to access than downtown Toronto by car.

I think a key question (and obviously all meaningless if Pegulas or Bettman fought it) is how do you calculate that territorial range and whether it crosses international boundaries. There is no precedent.

The move to relocate Nashville, Phoenix to Hamilton was clearly a turf incursion. And interestingly enough, the Sabres said it was a move on their turf too. So is Hamilton in their territory? I think that is a major unanswered question. How would the Leafs react? No idea. Can the Devils relocate to Manhattan? Clearly, the Islanders were allowed to locate in Brooklyn. Not as comparable. I know.

 

[Buffaloed]

Build an arena over the river. Fence off the seats 65/35 on the Canadian side, but keep the red line the border. Easy come n' go for fans on both sides. Stir up the nationalism on the jumbotron "cheer-o-meter" gag. The Pegulas won't have to rely on Kyle Okposo to destroy kids in "name Disney princesses" contests when most of the fans will have to also complete a skills-testing math question to collect their prize. Is there a downside?

The Canadians can have the beer concessions. I'm not sure about the hot dogs.

 

[cybresabre]

The Canadians can have the beer concessions. I'm not sure about the hot dogs.

Sahlens on both sides of the fence. Zweigles stand will have a trap door to the river.

 

[brian_griffin]

Perhaps Pegulas realized that they were powerless and could not handle it. I have concerns that they just don't want to pay Skinner, Tuch, Dahlin, Thompson and the rest anymore, that they want to stay near the cap floor until they sell the team.

That's the first step in any 12-step program. I forget which numbered step is "sell the team".

Build an arena over the river. Fence off the seats 65/35 on the Canadian side, but keep the red line the border. Easy come n' go for fans on both sides. Stir up the nationalism on the jumbotron "cheer-o-meter" gag. The Pegulas won't have to rely on Kyle Okposo to destroy kids in "name Disney princesses" contests when most of the fans will have to also complete a skills-testing math question to collect their prize. Is there a downside?

Bring back the ice boom as a floating new arena on the river, running from Old Fort Erie to between the outer harbor and the black rock canal. Ice boom was required by treaty to be removed each spring (subject to ice cover extensions), which shouldn't be an issue given the Sabres playoff drought.

Build one in the 50 mile/80-kilometre territory, see if First Ontario Centre falls in their territory (as it is being renovated), expand First Meridien in St. Catherines. I do think if you are in St. Catherines, you get fewer people willing to travel from major parts of Toronto. Hamilton really opens up the north and east end of Toronto for any team because Highway 407 takes you right to the game. I would say from Vaughan north of the city, Hamilton is easier to access than downtown Toronto by car.

I think a key question (and obviously all meaningless if Pegulas or Bettman fought it) is how do you calculate that territorial range and whether it crosses international boundaries. There is no precedent.

The move to relocate Nashville, Phoenix to Hamilton was clearly a turf incursion. And interestingly enough, the Sabres said it was a move on their turf too. So is Hamilton in their territory? I think that is a major unanswered question. How would the Leafs react? No idea. Can the Devils relocate to Manhattan? Clearly, the Islanders were allowed to locate in Brooklyn. Not as comparable. I know.

Pretty sure there is precedent. When there was talk of Jim Balsillie of Research In Motion / Blackberry fame moving a team (Coyotes or other) to Hamilton, there was clear statements made that both the Leafs and Sabres would block it on the territorial clause. And there have been separate statements in the past the territorial rights do extend across the border. Clearly, the population of the GTA could support a 2nd Toronto NHL team (and there was another team a century ago when the NHL had fewer teams and Canada had far less population). My understanding from speculation on that years ago is both the Sabres and Leafs would block a 2nd TOR team. (Although one can't help but think it may be the fastest way for Toronto to again lay claim to the Stanley Cup.)

 

[Buffaloed]

Sahlens on both sides of the fence. Zweigles stand will have a trap door to the river.

Are those the ones made of sawdust that float?

 

[TehDoak]

Are those the ones made of sawdust that float?

What else floats on water?

Bread! Apples? Very small rocks. Cider! Great Gravy. Cherries. Mud. Churches? Lead?

A Duck!

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

That's the first step in any 12-step program. I forget which numbered step is "sell the team".

Bring back the ice boom as a floating new arena on the river, running from Old Fort Erie to between the outer harbor and the black rock canal. Ice boom was required by treaty to be removed each spring (subject to ice cover extensions), which shouldn't be an issue given the Sabres playoff drought.

Pretty sure there is precedent. When there was talk of Jim Balsillie of Research In Motion / Blackberry fame moving a team (Coyotes or other) to Hamilton, there was clear statements made that both the Leafs and Sabres would block it on the territorial clause. And there have been separate statements in the past the territorial rights do extend across the border. Clearly, the population of the GTA could support a 2nd Toronto NHL team (and there was another team a century ago when the NHL had fewer teams and Canada had far less population). My understanding from speculation on that years ago is both the Sabres and Leafs would block a 2nd TOR team. (Although one can't help but think it may be the fastest way for Toronto to again lay claim to the Stanley Cup.)

That is my point. That was a team MOVING into SABRES territory. Not Buffalo moving within its own territory. Clearly, Buffalo can relocate to the suburbs, Toronto too. Just a question of how far you can go.

 

[Ehran]

What else floats on water?

Bread! Apples? Very small rocks. Cider! Great Gravy. Cherries. Mud. Churches? Lead?

A Duck!

Witches

 

[Sabre the Win]

Someone once said a fan should never run their favorite team. We need an owner who will treat the Sabres like a business, not a family friendly atmosphere.

 

[Buffaloed]

Someone once said a fan should never run their favorite team. We need an owner who will treat the Sabres like a business, not a family friendly atmosphere.

That wasn't possible so Pegula spent the last decade ruining the Sabres so he would hate them.