Podcast (Audio) Hamilton: People Are Interested In Buying The Sabres

[Fjordy]

If Pegulas no longer want to spend money on the team or want to control the hockey process again, they should leave.

 

[Reddawg]

I'm interested in buying the Sabres.

I just need to win the lottery first. And I would also like to acquire the supernatural ability to see the future.

I’m interested in buying the Sabres as well. Thus, PH is technically correct…”people” are interested.

I’m prepared to make an all-cash offer.

 

[TehDoak]

I don't disagree with what you wrote, but there could be other reasons.

Item 1 you listed: when the Pegula's went with Adams as GM, they talked about the need to cut costs in a COVID environment where they wouldn't be making money.

2. I'd bet the Sabres are looking for NYS to chip in on upgrades. It's probably not a good time to do so when negotiating a deal for the Bills stadium.

3. Sabres suck and people are pissed. What would they do or say? The Sabres are in a rebuilding cycle, which they've addressed continually. They could be just waiting for the ship to finally turn (which it looks to be doing). Also, the Pegula's are not public people. I'd bet they're purposely not coming out after the Eichel trade and another poor season.

1. EVERY team was hit by COVID. Not every team razed their front offices. Owners got their pound of flesh from the players in the renegotiated CBA with a much higher escrow to cover their losses from 2020 and 2021. The Botterill firing and staff scuttling was the Pegula's making a choice to cut dollars. The costs saved were minuscule in the money they've blown on bad signings and buyouts. It was a big flag that they were sick of losing cash on the team.

2. They might be, but again, its symbolic of where the Pegula's heads are at in terms of fan experience at the Sabres games. They simply are not ready to spend on arena improvements despite it badly needed.

3. The Pegula's were around during bad seasons previously. They do tend to spend time in Florida during the winter months. But, they were up in town for the Bills games and didn't make even an appearance at Sabres games.

Taken as a whole, it speaks to where the Pegulas are with the Sabres. They are very involved with the Bills. They'll make appearances on NFL network, they are very publicly involved, heck Kim even has a Bills podcast. The Sabres have become an after thought to them.

If Pegulas no longer want to spend money on the team or want to control the hockey process again, they should leave.

I mean, by hiring Adams, they never relinquished control of the hockey process.

 

[LongWayDown37]

Making fun of Hamilton doesn't negate the fact that this team is in dire straits.

I would honestly be less affected if they move these days. Buffalo as a whole needs to buy into the regional aspect of Southern Ontario as much as possible moving forward.

If/when the borders clear up for good, we need to start positioning the city as a suburb of the greater Toronto region. The Bills are an NFL entity so they're essentially subsidized and fine but good luck with the Sabres. The numbers right now are worse than those of the Cleveland Barons. Let that soak in.

I agree with this. The only edit I would make is that we aren't a suburb to Toronto - we should be positioned as a secondary urban center in the Bi-National region - one of world's fastest growing megaregions. And I know I'm in the extreme minority but I think the Bills in Toronto was a good (but poorly executed idea) and I would have actually put the new stadium in Southern Ontario.

 

[Fjordy]

I mean, by hiring Adams, they never relinquished control of the hockey process.

But we do not know how they are now affecting this, there seemed to be no leaks.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

Im not a fan of Hamilton’s reporting but this is a really shitty comment about a person.

You're right. Apologies. I was riffing on another sarcastic comment. But no call for it. Sorry again. (I have generally been ignoring all things Hamilton for legitimate hockey reasons. His knowledge is questionable. He offers no real inside information. He is also rude to average fans and I'm not talking about people swearing but just Joe blow who looks at standings and sees a bad team. Don't get me going on Buffalo News

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

I would honestly be less affected if they move these days. Buffalo as a whole needs to buy into the regional aspect of Southern Ontario as much as possible moving forward.

Southern Ontario is booming. St. Catharines has a median house price of $757,000. Money is pouring in.

 

[BuffaloGooner]

1. EVERY team was hit by COVID. Not every team razed their front offices. Owners got their pound of flesh from the players in the renegotiated CBA with a much higher escrow to cover their losses from 2020 and 2021. The Botterill firing and staff scuttling was the Pegula's making a choice to cut dollars. The costs saved were minuscule in the money they've blown on bad signings and buyouts. It was a big flag that they were sick of losing cash on the team.

2. They might be, but again, its symbolic of where the Pegula's heads are at in terms of fan experience at the Sabres games. They simply are not ready to spend on arena improvements despite it badly needed.

3. The Pegula's were around during bad seasons previously. They do tend to spend time in Florida during the winter months. But, they were up in town for the Bills games and didn't make even an appearance at Sabres games.

Taken as a whole, it speaks to where the Pegulas are with the Sabres. They are very involved with the Bills. They'll make appearances on NFL network, they are very publicly involved, heck Kim even has a Bills podcast. The Sabres have become an after thought to them.



I mean, by hiring Adams, they never relinquished control of the hockey process.

You’re still on the Adams is a puppet narrative?

 

[May Day 10]

As a fan, it feels like ownership and management is checked out and has been checked out.

Whether its the build of the hockey operations and a lot of hiring from the inside, or the lack of attention paid to the "brand" and the team/fan pride. They passed off wearing white at home as a major promotion this season. I went to the Val James night and it was a joke. They have not inducted anyone in the Sabres hall of fame since 2012 I believe. There is a lack of anything compelling with this franchise and it isnt only constantly being out of the playoff picture by Thanksgiving.

Its just lifeless in the arena, and was happening before crowds were in the mid-thousands.

A big problem is the false-demand that the waiting list and FOMO caused. They steadily raised ticket prices throughout, the waiting list was breached and it was a mass exodus. I cant believe people would pay some of those prices for a somewhat meaningless NHL regular season game, let alone one with an irrelevant team(s).

 

[TehDoak]

You’re still on the Adams is a puppet narrative?

Without re-litigating the past, there's zero reason Adams should have a NHL GM based on his pre-GM resume. He's barely even qualified to be a scout at the NHL level based on his lack of front office experience at any level.

He was hired for his loyalty, period. Puppet probably isn't the right term. That would infer some sort of active interest in the team, which the Pegula's haven't showed this season, publicly at least.

He may ironically have more leeway than any of his previous predecessors simply because the Pegula's don't really care and just ask that he spends as little as possible on player costs, which he is doing.

The term I would use to describe Adams is a Pegula Loyalist. He can't open his mouth at a press conference without kissing the ring at least once. And based on his previous actions (laying people off, etc), he likely would not say no to anything the Pegula's asked of him, even if it weren't in the teams best interest.

 

[Der Jaeger]

1. EVERY team was hit by COVID. Not every team razed their front offices. Owners got their pound of flesh from the players in the renegotiated CBA with a much higher escrow to cover their losses from 2020 and 2021. The Botterill firing and staff scuttling was the Pegula's making a choice to cut dollars. The costs saved were minuscule in the money they've blown on bad signings and buyouts. It was a big flag that they were sick of losing cash on the team.

2. They might be, but again, its symbolic of where the Pegula's heads are at in terms of fan experience at the Sabres games. They simply are not ready to spend on arena improvements despite it badly needed.

3. The Pegula's were around during bad seasons previously. They do tend to spend time in Florida during the winter months. But, they were up in town for the Bills games and didn't make even an appearance at Sabres games.

Taken as a whole, it speaks to where the Pegulas are with the Sabres. They are very involved with the Bills. They'll make appearances on NFL network, they are very publicly involved, heck Kim even has a Bills podcast. The Sabres have become an after thought to them.

Again, don't disagree with any of this as possibilities.

For item 1, they cut VERY early in the COVID experience, so I do think they went scorched earth with the team early, not knowing what was coming.

For item 2, I do think they know they need a new stadium for the Bills and renovations for the Sabres. The new stadium takes precedent, so I think they are going in order.

For item 3, I'm always looking at the simplest answer. They spend winters in Florida. 8 Bills games are a lot easier to make than 41 Sabres games. It'll be telling if they attend the outdoor game vs Toronto, and RJ's last call.

Without re-litigating the past, there's zero reason Adams should have a NHL GM based on his pre-GM resume. He's barely even qualified to be a scout at the NHL level based on his lack of front office experience at any level.

He was hired for his loyalty, period. Puppet probably isn't the right term. That would infer some sort of active interest in the team, which the Pegula's haven't showed this season, publicly at least.

He may ironically have more leeway than any of his previous predecessors simply because the Pegula's don't really care and just ask that he spends as little as possible on player costs, which he is doing.

The term I would use to describe Adams is a Pegula Loyalist. He can't open his mouth at a press conference without kissing the ring at least once. And based on his previous actions (laying people off, etc), he likely would not say no to anything the Pegula's asked of him, even if it weren't in the teams best interest.

I think it's a lot simpler than you are making this out to be. Pull the job titles off and just look at what the front office people do.

Adams: oversees the entire operations, go between for the organization and the Pegula's, front man for the organization, offers general direction to the front office.

Karmanos: oversees scouting, player development, analysts, and the Amerks.

Now, match the job titles to what they are doing: President of Hockey Operations, General Manager.

It's clear that Karmanos is filling to role of GM, and Adams is the President. In that way, the team has proper management, and the Pegula's have someone they trust in Adams.

 

[Jim Bob]

I think it's a lot simpler than you are making this out to be. Pull the job titles off and just look at what the front office people do.

Adams: oversees the entire operations, go between for the organization and the Pegula's, front man for the organization, offers general direction to the front office.

Karmanos: oversees scouting, player development, analysts, and the Amerks.

Now, match the job titles to what they are doing: President of Hockey Operations, General Manager.

It's clear that Karmanos is filling to role of GM, and Adams is the President. In that way, the team has proper management, and the Pegula's have someone they trust in Adams.

Watching the behind the scenes stuff and Adams being the person on the phone with other GMs for trades and I have a hard time seeing that work break down with the Sabres.

Plus, Karmanos is the Amerks GM which is the job of the Assistant GM for most teams.

Hockey Operations Staff | Rochester Americans

 

[haseoke39]

Without re-litigating the past, there's zero reason Adams should have a NHL GM based on his pre-GM resume. He's barely even qualified to be a scout at the NHL level based on his lack of front office experience at any level.

He was hired for his loyalty, period. Puppet probably isn't the right term. That would infer some sort of active interest in the team, which the Pegula's haven't showed this season, publicly at least.

He may ironically have more leeway than any of his previous predecessors simply because the Pegula's don't really care and just ask that he spends as little as possible on player costs, which he is doing.

The term I would use to describe Adams is a Pegula Loyalist. He can't open his mouth at a press conference without kissing the ring at least once. And based on his previous actions (laying people off, etc), he likely would not say no to anything the Pegula's asked of him, even if it weren't in the teams best interest.

Yep. Adams would never have been remotely considered for any other NHL front office job. He got the job because he'd been personally faithful to the Pegulas for a long time and Botterill wasn't going along with their firing purge or something. If you think that's cool and normal and not a sign of a dysfunctional organization, IDK, yikes.

 

[BuffaloGooner]

Yep. Adams would never have been remotely considered for any other NHL front office job. He got the job because he'd been personally faithful to the Pegulas for a long time and Botterill wasn't going along with their firing purge or something. If you think that's cool and normal and not a sign of a dysfunctional organization, IDK, yikes.

Botterill was one of the worst GMs in our history, but go off king

 

[RefsIdeas]

Yep. Adams would never have been remotely considered for any other NHL front office job. He got the job because he'd been personally faithful to the Pegulas for a long time and Botterill wasn't going along with their firing purge or something. If you think that's cool and normal and not a sign of a dysfunctional organization, IDK, yikes.

Botterill was one of the worst GMs in our history, but go off king

To both of your points-

I do think Botterill was somewhat of a puppet GM. The Pegula's felt that they were misled by Tim Murray and the direction the franchise would go in, and wanted somebody to come in that would do what the Pegula's thought best and wouldn't put up much of a fight. I think it's telling that Tim Murray now races horses in Florida and Botterill is an AGM (Murray was close to a legit psycho in addition to being reckless + Pegula's probably badmouthed him like crazy in league circles). The Sabres continued to fail and the Sabres mistakes continued to mount so Botterill was their next fall guy. Kevyn Adams was put in because he was dirt cheap and would do what the Pegula's said to. I do totally agree that no other NHL team would ever consider him for a GM position. He's woefully unqualified for it. The results haven't been horrible though.

Hearing what Botterill had to say after trading RoR sounded so much like he needed any reason to justify it. He said something along the lines of "well he's 28 and our core is more 18-21 so he doesn't really fit with our timeline any longer" was such utter BS. It sounded like he just came up with something instead of saying "well the Pegula's didn't like his end of season press conference and wanted him gone before he was due a 7.5m bonus at midnight". I heard zero conviction in his voice that he actually wanted to trade him. This is just one example I'm bringing up for why I feel like Botterill was a puppet GM.

Botterill was a trainwreck. There's no way around that. But to see the level of involvement that the Pegula's have at every level of decisions in the NHL seems telling, and leads me to believe that a lot of it was their own doing.

Of course, I could be dead wrong about this. It's mostly based off of Kim Pegula's interview with The Athletic, scenes from Behind Blue and Gold, and re-listening to some old Botterill interviews.

 

[thewookie1]

If you don't care or feel unbothered by the idea of the Sabres moving then you aren't a true fan and should go away..... The Sabres belong to Buffalo and should stay here; not depart to some other city regardless. Same goes for the Bills regardless if the St. Catherine's region is growing etc.. etc.. Market there for sure but we shouldn't move stuff there.

 

[brian_griffin]

<snip>
2. They might be, but again, its symbolic of where the Pegula's heads are at in terms of fan experience at the Sabres games. They simply are not ready to spend on (KeyBank Center) arena improvements despite it badly needed.
<snip>

To add to @Der Jaeger 's remark on priorities / sequence, KBC is also owned by Erie County (but operated by PSE). Both Erie County and the Pegulas/PSE should not dilute focus on the greater need, which is also the higher cost, and longer-timeline project. Neither entity has the staff to execute two simultaneous scopes (etc.), and their 3rd party firms for design, engineering, construction management are likely in a similar situation of sequential, not parallel activities (granted, differences in scope for the two projects likely separates those Venn circles significantly, and the size of those Venn scope circles are not equal.

I'm ready to restore a car in my garage. But if I start on that before I repair / re-roof / expand my back porch, which I promised my wife would be done 6 months ago, she'll (correctly) give me hell.

Perhaps you're also failing to consider the time and travel commitment in recent years the Pegula's have/had to their daughter Jessie's world-ranked tennis career. If that wasn't a reality, who knows how the (parents) would apportion their time, travel, energy.

Without re-litigating the past, there's zero reason Adams should have a NHL GM based on his pre-GM resume. He's barely even qualified to be a scout at the NHL level based on his lack of front office experience at any level.

He was hired for his loyalty, period. Puppet probably isn't the right term. That would infer some sort of active interest in the team, which the Pegula's haven't showed this season, publicly at least.

He may ironically have more leeway than any of his previous predecessors simply because the Pegula's don't really care and just ask that he spends as little as possible on player costs, which he is doing.

The term I would use to describe Adams is a Pegula Loyalist. He can't open his mouth at a press conference without kissing the ring at least once. And based on his previous actions (laying people off, etc), he likely would not say no to anything the Pegula's asked of him, even if it weren't in the teams best interest.

No disagreement with the non-bolded.
The bolded is speculative. Last year they were spending 90% of the cap, and in 2019-20 spending to the cap.

Southern Ontario is booming. St. Catharines has a median house price of $757,000. Money is pouring in.

I've said this before, but a regional or national housing bubble in home prices is not a measure of economic productivity.

And money pouring in matters not a whit if it isn't buying greater value in future return, especially if/when there is a correction of 25% and it takes 10 years of the historic long-term average of ~2.2 to 3.8% per year residential home appreciation growth to bring a buyer who bought in the bubble back "above water" on their loan-to-value (or cash-outlay-to-value for all-cash-deals) for their property, and that excludes erosion of money in an inflationary market.

Home & other real-estate re-sales are excluded from GDP calculations. Only home and other real-estate construction is included in GDP, because it is product(ion), i.e., the "P" in GDP. I haven't been to Ontario since pre-COVID. The continuous construction in downtown Toronto (dozens of tower cranes used for high-rise construction last few times I was there) is definitely GDP growth. I admit I am ignorant of St. Catherines, specifically. (We have good friends in Kitchener-Waterloo, which has grown >10% since they moved there. We've visited during all seasons, but I especially miss the summer garden season. You Ontarians have neighborhood after neighborhood of 5-star gardens & gazebos.)

Economic growth is measured in GDP growth and per-capita GDP growth. Slightly off-topic, but wage growth which is less than or equal to inflation is not true wage growth. GDP growth which does not exceed inflation is not true growth. Price increases from inflation are not GDP growth.

I 100% agree with you on the general theme of beneficial Southern Ontario growth, in particular as compared to New York State. In the past 50 years, Ontario population (all regions of the province) has doubled (about a 1.44 CAGR), whereas New York State is essentially flat - zero growth (!!!) - during a time the US population grew by two-thirds and Canadian population grew by three-fourths. For New York State, 50 years of no appreciable net population growth but essentially the same provision of municipal services means the cost of those services, funded by income and property taxes, has had zero benefit of dilution from population growth. Unlike Ontario, there is no "rising tide to lift all boats" in NYS, and in effect, the boat is sinking. On top of that, NYS demographics shifting ever-to-the-right (older/aging) side of the distribution means increasingly more STAR exemptions (Senior citizen property tax rebates / exemptions in years when they are in effect), shifting a greater portion of the burden to the younger / still-working portion of the population.

I 100% agree on the detrimental impact of COVID and closed border on attendance, revenue, etc.

I don't know what this all means re: rumored interest in buying the Sabres, nor the Pegulas interest in selling. I am reasonably confident the arena will fill nearly all nights once the Sabres are a >90-point playoff team, regardless of who owns the team, and whenever that eventually happens (hopefully while all of us here are still alive).

 

[haseoke39]

Botterill was one of the worst GMs in our history, but go off king

I mean, I don't disagree.

 

[RefsIdeas]

A lot of buzz about Douglas Jemal buying the Sabres now

 

[brian_griffin]

Yep. Adams would never have been remotely considered for any other NHL front office job. He got the job because he'd been personally faithful to the Pegulas for a long time and Botterill wasn't going along with their firing purge or something. If you think that's cool and normal and not a sign of a dysfunctional organization, IDK, yikes.

Releasing Botterill and replacing with Adams are two separate decisions / actions. I think it would have been equally dysfunctional to retain someone (i.e., Botterill) who wouldn't execute a directive, for which there apparently was no negotiable compromise, and for whom there was no alternative lateral move, nor feasible demotion.

 

[Bufbro]

A lot of buzz about Douglas Jemal buying the Sabres now

Interesting these rumors surface as news of a stadium deal come out....

 

[sabremike]

Interesting these rumors surface as news of a stadium deal come out....

How does a convicted felon worth $150 million purchase a team that would cost at least twice as much as that?

 

[Fjordy]

How does a convicted felon worth $150 million purchase a team that would cost at least twice as much as that?

Maybe he's not alone? Although before that there were rumors that the name of Joseph Tsai is often heard around the purchase of the team.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Watching the behind the scenes stuff and Adams being the person on the phone with other GMs for trades and I have a hard time seeing that work break down with the Sabres.

Plus, Karmanos is the Amerks GM which is the job of the Assistant GM for most teams.

Hockey Operations Staff | Rochester Americans

It’s never going to be a clean cut of duties. And I’d say Karmanos probably had a huge influence on these deals.

 

[Buffaloed]

How does a convicted felon worth $150 million purchase a team that would cost at least twice as much as that?

I heard that Larry Quinn is the putting together the deal and Chris Jacobs is involved. Jean Knox is also part of the group and Beth Hoskins has offered to auction off Morgan horses for the cause.