Proposal: Hamilton - Pastrnak

[Bjornar Moxnes]

When you're 3rd in both ES and overall ice time per game for D on a bad defensive team, it's very hard to believe you're a #1D. He's seconds above Hamonic 5/5.

How in the world are the Flames a bad defensive team? Even if they're criminally overrated there isn't a single statistic even so called goals against that traditionalists like to use that claim the Flames are a bad defensive team.

Just because a player doesn't play that much PK doesn't mean they are a bad player especially since Hamilton plays a ton of minutes 5on5 and excels in them. Take Karlsson, he gets criticized for his PK usage. Yet when Karlsson is on the ice, his team allows the least amount of chances and goals against in raw numbers and per 60 on the PK. Hamilton is a much better PKer than Stone is. Either way whatever Hamilton is he's better than every Dman by far on the Red Wings.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Which adresses that he was 3rd in ice-time how, exactly?

Because Brodie has a history of excelling in tough long minutes (Even if it was dumb to use him that often this season) and Giordano is better than Hamilton? With all of Hamilton's advanced metrics, if Hamilton isn't a 1D, Giordano is basically a top 5 Dman. Yet everyone including me knows it's insane to consider Giordano a top 5 Dman. So that means Hamilton needs more credit. You aren't top in the league in all forms of chance generation percentages unless you're legitimately that good.

THat pairing was top 2 in the league in every single generation percentage category
That pairing was still very good in goals for percentage categories
You can't be that high unless you're legit
It's either Giordano is a top 5 Dman
or Hamilton is a legit 1D
Pick your poison Flames haters

 

[nbwingsfan]

How in the world are the Flames a bad defensive team? Even if they're criminally overrated there isn't a single statistic even so called goals against that traditionalists like to use that claim the Flames are a bad defensive team.

Just because a player doesn't play that much PK doesn't mean they are a bad player especially since Hamilton plays a ton of minutes 5on5 and excels in them. Take Karlsson, he gets criticized for his PK usage. Yet when Karlsson is on the ice, his team allows the least amount of chances and goals against in raw numbers and per 60 on the PK. Hamilton is a much better PKer than Stone is. Either way whatever Hamilton is he's better than every Dman by far on the Red Wings.

I never once mentioned PK time. Hamilton is 3rd in ice time at 5/5. Your own coaches think Hamilton is the 3rd best D to have out there (seconds above Hamonic). So unless you think the Flames have three #1D (they dont) then that' hard to believe Hamilton is one.

And you're right, Hamilton would be far and away our best D, which is saying very little when you look at who our D actually is.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

I never once mentioned PK time. Hamilton is 3rd in ice time at 5/5. Your own coaches think Hamilton is the 3rd best D to have out there (seconds above Hamonic). So unless you think the Flames have three #1D (they dont) then that' hard to believe Hamilton is one.

And you're right, Hamilton would be far and away our best D, which is saying very little when you look at who our D actually is.

Again GIordano is better than Hamilton no question. Brodie has been worse than Hamilton the past two seasons, but was far better than Hamilton in 2015-2016 (In fact by all metrics speaking Brodie was easily a top 10 Dman 5on5 that season), which is why he's used a lot more than he should have been used the past two seasons. That's not Hamilton's fault. When all 3 are playing well, you bet they are all 1D, but the Flames only had two Dman play like 1D for 2017-2018, Brodie played like a 4D and Hamonic as well. And yet even with all of this said, the Flames defense was still one of their strong points, it was offense and special teams that killed them.

 

[Lunatik]

Does Vancouver have any assets you might want for him? Have a desire for Sven Baerstchi back? Can toss him in a combo pack for Hamilton.

Could probably send you Baerstchi and Tanev for Hamilton.

That would get you a solid top 4 with his subtraction and you get a scoring forward who can play on a 2nd/3rd line fairly well. On a team like Tampa he's probably a 3rd line winger despite playing top line minutes in Vancouver.

That guy is a Flyers fan that loathes the Flames.

 

[MessierII]

but the Flames only had two Dman play like 1D for 2017-2018

Man the last team I remember having two #1 D’s was the 07 Ducks. They won the cup. The rest of the flames team must REALLY suck to miss the playoffs with two #1 D men.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

Equal value trade here, fills a need for Calgary and makes Boston’s D younger and they get a redo with Hamilton.

Sounds like you’re a homer who thinks Hamilton is worth more than he is

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Man the last team I remember having two #1 D’s was the 07 Ducks. They won the cup. The rest of the flames team must REALLY suck to miss the playoffs with two #1 D men.

That's funny because a ton of people seem to think Nashville has 4 1D.

 

[WJCJ]

I think Pastrnak is a good young player, but his production is someone tied to playing with Marchand and Bergeron. They tried him on the 2nd line this year and it didn't work out so well for him. Considering what a top pairing defenseman goes for these days, the value is pretty even. An argument can be made that Hamilton could command more considering Pastrnak is a winger.

They tried him on the 2nd line, he was fine and continued to put up points just as he did playing with Ryan Spooner but Krejci didn't have much chemistry with him. Him being moved back to the first line was because they wanted to get Krejci going, not Pastrnak, he also did great with Riley Nash as his center. He drives the first line as much as Marchand or Bergeron.

 

[BruinLVGA]

I know what he did, I meant he has potential to do even more and if he does that his value will be sky high.

If he is stuck at 70 pt range, his value it not higher than a top pairing dman.

He is literally not "stuck at 70 pt range": he JUST had 80 points... and he added 20 points in 12 games in the playoffs, to lead his team (and only 1 point behind the overall lead)... At age 21, while signed long term at a very reasonable cap (6.66m), with minimal signing bonuses (only 3m of the remaining 33.3m left).

His value IS sky high.

And when you say that he has "potential to do more", I imagine the next step up would be 100-110 points, I guess. If he would reach that, for Hamilton to be worth that level of performance, he'd have to become prime Karlsson. And I don't think that'll ever happen.

All in all, Pastrnak's value >>>> Hamilton's. I think it will remain like this too.

 

[Brock Radunske]

Hamilton is like a less physical Dion Phaneuf when he was traded from the Flames.

 

[BruinLVGA]

They tried him on the end line, he was fine and continued to put up points just as he did playing with Ryan Spooner but Krejci didn't have much chemistry with him. Him being moved back to the first line was because they wanted to get Krejci going, not Pastrnak, he also did great with Riley Nash as his center. He drives the first line as much as Marchand or Bergeron.

This needs to be stickied.

 

[wintersej]

Because Brodie has a history of excelling in tough long minutes (Even if it was dumb to use him that often this season) and Giordano is better than Hamilton? With all of Hamilton's advanced metrics, if Hamilton isn't a 1D, Giordano is basically a top 5 Dman. Yet everyone including me knows it's insane to consider Giordano a top 5 Dman. So that means Hamilton needs more credit. You aren't top in the league in all forms of chance generation percentages unless you're legitimately that good.

THat pairing was top 2 in the league in every single generation percentage category
That pairing was still very good in goals for percentage categories
You can't be that high unless you're legit
It's either Giordano is a top 5 Dman
or Hamilton is a legit 1D
Pick your poison Flames haters

So it’s not possible they are two D who compliment each other well?

 

[nbwingsfan]

Again GIordano is better than Hamilton no question. Brodie has been worse than Hamilton the past two seasons, but was far better than Hamilton in 2015-2016 (In fact by all metrics speaking Brodie was easily a top 10 Dman 5on5 that season), which is why he's used a lot more than he should have been used the past two seasons. That's not Hamilton's fault. When all 3 are playing well, you bet they are all 1D, but the Flames only had two Dman play like 1D for 2017-2018, Brodie played like a 4D and Hamonic as well. And yet even with all of this said, the Flames defense was still one of their strong points, it was offense and special teams that killed them.

So despite having a #1C, a top 5W (according to flames fans), a good/not greater starter, TWO #1D and two other top 4D... the Flames still managed to miss the playoffs?

Maybe it's just time to realize your D isn't as good as you say it is. You were like 19th in GA for a reason...

 

[BruinLVGA]

He's a #1D in the same sense that Krug is (aka only one end of the ice). Pastrnak is also on an even better contract, 4 years younger, and while already being PPG he still has plenty of room to grow.

Exactly. Krug for the second season in a row is top 10 in D scoring (got 59 points in 76 games... Dougie got 44 in 82: not even close).

And Krug has a viable excuse for his limits in the defensive zone: he's 5"9. Dougie is a hulking 6"6.

 

[powerstuck]

Would you like DeBrusk and Krug while at it ?

 

[BruinLVGA]

I wouldnt say the Flames is a bad defensive team. They are in the middle of the pack, could have been better except for some blown out by bad goaltending and Smith's injury.

Also not sure why people pick on Hamilton defense. That is not his strength. His value is on offense and he doesnt play a terrible defensive game. That's all you can ask from most offensive dmen.

So, by this metric + logic, if you think that Hamilton is worth Pastrnak, then Krug is worth Gaudreau?

 

[57special]

Pastrnak is worth more. Add in age, and other factors and the trade gets even more unlikely.

 

[AvatarAang]

It's either Giordano is a top 5 Dman
or Hamilton is a legit 1D
Pick your poison Flames haters

It's either the Flames D isn't as good as you think
or the Flames would have made the playoffs
Pick your poison Flames homers

 

[TFHockey]

It's either the Flames D isn't as good as you think
or the Flames would have made the playoffs
Pick your poison Flames homers

So it's not just Oiler threads you jump into to do this! I find that oddly comforting.

Trade heavily favors Flames. Boston does not do this. Also, Hamilton to the Bruins? That isn't going to happen.

 

[rent free]

That's funny because a ton of people seem to think Nashville has 4 1D.

And they are the best team in the NHL while the flames missed the playoffs...

 

[Montecristo]

Hamilton doesn’t like Boston. Boston doesn’t like Hamilton. Boston doesn’t trade top end offensive talent locked up long term for a guy who doesn’t want to be in Boston and they don’t like

 

[The Red Mile]

Although this trade as a base is fair, I do not think Boston would do it. Pasta is just too good and will be their best forward in a couple years, if not already.

 

[Gee Wally]

Equal value trade here, fills a need for Calgary and makes Boston’s D younger and they get a redo with Hamilton.

Not in a million years.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

So despite having a #1C, a top 5W (according to flames fans), a good/not greater starter, TWO #1D and two other top 4D... the Flames still managed to miss the playoffs?

Maybe it's just time to realize your D isn't as good as you say it is. You were like 19th in GA for a reason...

There is something known as goaltending. As much as goaltending wasn't a weakness, it wasn't a strength either. Also a ton of our GA were on special teams which is more of a system thing than actual defense. It's not top 5 in the league, but it absolutely is top 10 or at least above average. Lastly, don't be fooled by Smith's stats. Minus October and a part of November there were a ton of games where Smith didn't have to be elite to win but he did. Like wise, when it really mattered Smith imploded. Backup goaltending was definitely a weakness.