Confirmed with Link: Habs trade Philippe Lefebvre and a 7th to Florida for George Parros

[CrAzYNiNe]

based on what ? What has happened in the last 27 years to suddenly make fighting dispensable ? or more injurious ? or more of a threat to player safety ? In many respects fighting is already much lower than in eras gone by yet this has somehow ( counterintuitively) caused the chicken little's to bray even harder that the sky is falling.

People act like these arguments against fighting are somehow novel, the exact same arguments have been made for at least the last 60 years, and these arguments have not swayed the PA at all. in fact i doubt they could have been any less effective had they tried. Repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome is one definition of insanity, if that's the path you want to chose, be my guest.

So you haven't heard them talk about banning fighting more in the last 2 years, than in the last 20 years? Things progress, and with the way they are talking about removing fighting recently, I imagine it will happen, eventually.

 

[Habsterix*]

So you haven't heard them talk about banning fighting more in the last 2 years, than in the last 20 years? Things progress, and with the way they are talking about removing fighting recently, I imagine it will happen, eventually.

I refuse to see this as "progress". There are multitude of examples (I've given a few in the article I've quoted earlier today) where the NHL, by "wanting to progress", has regressed instead by not thinking of the compound effects and their lack of foresight. Eliminating fighting would be a HUGE mistake.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for the topic on hand (Parros), let's not forget that Parros is on a contract year. He'll want to earn another NHL contract, whether it's in Montreal or elsewhere. I'm expecting a good season from him. Here are some quotes from today:

"I hope to play good enough to be in the lineup every game"

"I consider myself as a good fighter"

"I know that Brandon Prust is happy to have me in town"

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

I refuse to see this as "progress". There are multitude of examples (I've given a few in the article I've quoted earlier today) where the NHL, by "wanting to progress", has regressed instead by not thinking of the compound effects and their lack of foresight. Eliminating fighting would be a HUGE mistake.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for the topic on hand (Parros), let's not forget that Parros is on a contract year. He'll want to earn another NHL contract, whether it's in Montreal or elsewhere. I'm expecting a good season from him. Here are some quotes from today:

"I hope to play good enough to be in the lineup every game"

"I consider myself as a good fighter"

"I know that Brandon Prust is happy to have me in town"

Oh sorry, I see how what I said can be misconstrued. I meant progress as in they are thinking about banning it and it will progress to the point of it happening. I didn't mean that it will progress and enhance the game of hockey.

I also agree that banning fighting is a terrible idea, I just hate the people running the NHL. New people need to come in, soon, before they go too far.

 

[Habsterix*]

Oh sorry, I see how what I said can be misconstrued. I meant progress as in they are thinking about banning it and it will progress to the point of it happening. I didn't mean that it will progress and enhance the game of hockey.

I also agree that banning fighting is a terrible idea, I just hate the people running the NHL. New people need to come in, soon, before they go too far.

Sorry, I misread.

 

[sandysan]

So you haven't heard them talk about banning fighting more in the last 2 years, than in the last 20 years? Things progress, and with the way they are talking about removing fighting recently, I imagine it will happen, eventually.

I do not, the people who want to ban fighting are still an immense minority. Because of the internet, they may appear more vocal but if you want to know how many of these people actually go to games, watch a fight in an nhl arena and count the number of people who turn their backs to protect their delicate sensibilities.

the fans want fights, the players overwhelmingly want it and the people who are opposed it have done an abysmal job of changing the opinion of these two key demographics. Perhaps these groups find their forced infantilization as offensive as I do.

 

[Kriss E]

I refuse to see this as "progress". There are multitude of examples (I've given a few in the article I've quoted earlier today) where the NHL, by "wanting to progress", has regressed instead by not thinking of the compound effects and their lack of foresight. Eliminating fighting would be a HUGE mistake.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for the topic on hand (Parros), let's not forget that Parros is on a contract year. He'll want to earn another NHL contract, whether it's in Montreal or elsewhere. I'm expecting a good season from him. Here are some quotes from today:

"I hope to play good enough to be in the lineup every game"

"I consider myself as a good fighter"

"I know that Brandon Prust is happy to have me in town"

Eliminating it and keeping the things as they currently are, yes, I agree 100%.
If they made suspensions much harsher, then I have to disagree.

 

[Habsterix*]

Eliminating it and keeping the things as they currently are, yes, I agree 100%.
If they made suspensions much harsher, then I have to disagree.

Suspensions for what? Fighting?

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

Suspensions for what? Fighting?

For dirty play. But even then, its never fair. Let the players police themselves.

 

[Habsterix*]

For dirty play. But even then, its never fair. Let the players police themselves.

Agreed. In addition, history has proven that tougher suspensions don't last due to the pressure from NHL executives and team owners. Burke and more recently Shanahan have tried to be more severe but they're told to slack off.

It's all fine and dandy throwing the book at a 3-4th line player or a bottom pairing defenseman, but when an impact player makes a similar infraction, teams can't afford to lose that player for a long time, and the NHLPA is right on that. That's particularly true now that the players can challenge suspensions in the new CBA.

Fine on paper, won't work in real life. Best option is letting the players do some policing themselves.

 

[overlords]

Agreed. In addition, history has proven that tougher suspensions don't last due to the pressure from NHL executives and team owners. Burke and more recently Shanahan have tried to be more severe but they're told to slack off.

It's all fine and dandy throwing the book at a 3-4th line player or a bottom pairing defenseman, but when an impact player makes a similar infraction, teams can't afford to lose that player for a long time, and the NHLPA is right on that. That's particularly true now that the players can challenge suspensions in the new CBA.

Fine on paper, won't work in real life. Best option is letting the players do some policing themselves.

This is exactly what's wrong with the NHL.

 

[sandysan]

This is exactly what's wrong with the NHL.

amen to that. I think that guys who have a reputation can get a harsher punishment but letting a guy skate because he puts butts in the seats is just plain wrong. This isnt the NBA ( or it shouldnt be)

 

[Kriss E]

For dirty play. But even then, its never fair. Let the players police themselves.

It's not fair because the suspensions are out of whack. There is a double standard, there is a conflict of interest, and the suspensions make very little sense.
That's why you have people thinking players should police themselves (not that this has been effective anyways).
That's where ''make the suspensions harsher and clearer'' comes in.

Agreed. In addition, history has proven that tougher suspensions don't last due to the pressure from NHL executives and team owners. Burke and more recently Shanahan have tried to be more severe but they're told to slack off.

That is exactly what needs to change.

It's all fine and dandy throwing the book at a 3-4th line player or a bottom pairing defenseman, but when an impact player makes a similar infraction, teams can't afford to lose that player for a long time, and the NHLPA is right on that. That's particularly true now that the players can challenge suspensions in the new CBA.

That is why myself, and WS for that matter, have said that unless the league changes their ways with suspensions, nothing will work.

If teams can't afford it, then they make sure to relay the message to their players. Don't do anything dirty.

Fine on paper, won't work in real life. Best option is letting the players do some policing themselves.

Hasn't been tried in real life. What has been tried? Short, double standard, conflicted suspensions. They don't work.
What else? Players policing themselves. That also isn't working.
It's not like the number of dirty hits is dropping.

Might as well try something else, like give harsher suspensions, hire a completely neutral disciplinary committee (how many organizations has Shanahan played for? How many old teammates does he have either as coaches, administrations, or even players?) Create a very precise set of guidelines.
You know there is something horribly wrong with the discipline actions when its head publicly states the suspensions won't be as severe in the POs because there's less games to be played. I mean really? This makes sense how? Is the guy injured will suffer less because it's the POs? Same goes for refereeing, you can't have two different set of guidelines.

But people like to be complacent, and not many like changes.

 

[sandysan]

It's not fair because the suspensions are out of whack. There is a double standard, there is a conflict of interest, and the suspensions make very little sense.
That's why you have people thinking players should police themselves (not that this has been effective anyways).
That's where ''make the suspensions harsher and clearer'' comes in.

People who advocate for self policing dont care what the suits decide, its not a supplemental form of discipline, its completely independent.

Guys want to self police things that happen on the ice, whether the guy is treated with kid gloves or gets the book thrown at him at some later time is immaterial.

If you are the type of player who lets liberties against your teamates go unanswered because you think some suit is going to make it even, I'm glad we dont skate together.

 

[Habsterix*]

It's not fair because the suspensions are out of whack. There is a double standard, there is a conflict of interest, and the suspensions make very little sense.
That's why you have people thinking players should police themselves (not that this has been effective anyways).
That's where ''make the suspensions harsher and clearer'' comes in.


That is exactly what needs to change.


That is why myself, and WS for that matter, have said that unless the league changes their ways with suspensions, nothing will work.

If teams can't afford it, then they make sure to relay the message to their players. Don't do anything dirty.


Hasn't been tried in real life. What has been tried? Short, double standard, conflicted suspensions. They don't work.
What else? Players policing themselves. That also isn't working.
It's not like the number of dirty hits is dropping.

Might as well try something else, like give harsher suspensions, hire a completely neutral disciplinary committee (how many organizations has Shanahan played for? How many old teammates does he have either as coaches, administrations, or even players?) Create a very precise set of guidelines.
You know there is something horribly wrong with the discipline actions when its head publicly states the suspensions won't be as severe in the POs because there's less games to be played. I mean really? This makes sense how? Is the guy injured will suffer less because it's the POs? Same goes for refereeing, you can't have two different set of guidelines.

But people like to be complacent, and not many like changes.

It's not going to happen. You won't see a drastic change in the suspensions for the reasons I've mentioned, and it's a reality that no one, in spite of their good intentions (ask Burke and Shanny), can change.

Money talks. When a star or impact player is suspended for a long period of time, the team starts losing and fans stop supporting it in non-traditional markets especially. Winning brings fans to the gates and if those attractions are off on suspension, fans won't buy tickets. Owners will lose money. That's the pressure and that's why it will never pass.

So people want to ban fighting? It will kill the game and it will have more negative side effects than it will do good. Plus, a majority of fans love watching them fight, even if some don't.

 

[Kriss E]

People who advocate for self policing dont care what the suits decide, its not a supplemental form of discipline, its completely independent.

Guys want to self police things that happen on the ice, whether the guy is treated with kid gloves or gets the book thrown at him at some later time is immaterial.

If you are the type of player who lets liberties against your teamates go unanswered because you think some suit is going to make it even, I'm glad we dont skate together.

That's because you are not in touch with the reality.
The reality of the situation is, if PK throws a nasty check, he doesn't have to fight Thornton, or whichever enforcer you send his way on the next shift (seeing how your enforcer probably won't be on the ice at the same time). He doesn't have to. You can throw whoever you want, he can refuse to fight and if you jump him, he can turtle. You'll get ejected and get an instigating penalty. PK will keep throwing his body as he sees fit.

This is not some fabricated scenario in my mind. This is actually the reality of the sport. Any player can thrown a dirty hit and not have to deal with it. The problem here is that you somehow believe this ''on ice policing'' is actually working.

Hey, keep fighting in the sport if you want, I don't care. That way if someone tries to jump on PK and Tinordi is there, then he can step in. But don't tell me fighting is an effective method to diminishing dirty hits. It's not. And don't tell me the disciplinary committee is also well governed. It's not.
Those two things need improvement, and I believe the extinction of enforcers would be a by product of it.

 

[Kriss E]

It's not going to happen. You won't see a drastic change in the suspensions for the reasons I've mentioned, and it's a reality that no one, in spite of their good intentions (ask Burke and Shanny), can change.

Money talks. When a star or impact player is suspended for a long period of time, the team starts losing and fans stop supporting it in non-traditional markets especially. Winning brings fans to the gates and if those attractions are off on suspension, fans won't buy tickets. Owners will lose money. That's the pressure and that's why it will never pass.

So people want to ban fighting? It will kill the game and it will have more negative side effects than it will do good. Plus, a majority of fans love watching them fight, even if some don't.

Well that's the only way a ban on fighting can happen imo. So if it doesn't happen, fighting won't be banned.

 

[Habsterix*]

That's because you are not in touch with the reality.
The reality of the situation is, if PK throws a nasty check, he doesn't have to fight Thornton, or whichever enforcer you send his way on the next shift (seeing how your enforcer probably won't be on the ice at the same time). He doesn't have to. You can throw whoever you want, he can refuse to fight and if you jump him, he can turtle. You'll get ejected and get an instigating penalty. PK will keep throwing his body as he sees fit.

This is not some fabricated scenario in my mind. This is actually the reality of the sport. Any player can thrown a dirty hit and not have to deal with it. The problem here is that you somehow believe this ''on ice policing'' is actually working.

Hey, keep fighting in the sport if you want, I don't care. That way if someone tries to jump on PK and Tinordi is there, then he can step in. But don't tell me fighting is an effective method to diminishing dirty hits. It's not. And don't tell me the disciplinary committee is also well governed. It's not.
Those two things need improvement, and I believe the extinction of enforcers would be a by product of it.

Having played hockey at a level where fighting was allowed, I can't disagree more with that post. You're right that Subban can throw a cheap hit and turtle, but he'll take a pounding for it anyway. Will he do it again? Maybe, maybe not, but he'll remember what happened the last time and he'll know that there would be a price to pay for his actions. Emelin is a good example when Chara went after him. Fighting won't prevent hockey from happening (hitting for example), but it makes players accountable and think twice before being stupid.

Fighting will prevent dirty hits whether you want to believe it or not, as a lot of players don't play dirty because they're scared of having to pay for it. Just like some players don't go in the corners or in front of the net because there's a price to pay. Just like some players don't distribute bodychecks because there is a price to pay. Just like some players don't block shots because there is a price to pay.

 

[Analyzer*]

http://video.canadiens.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=66&lang=en

 

[loudi94]

Shame the league has rules against him using the support bar. Probably would be most helpful.

 

[sandysan]

. This is actually the reality of the sport. Any player can thrown a dirty hit and not have to deal with it. The problem here is that you somehow believe this ''on ice policing'' is actually working. .

Brian boyle ( at the end of Matt carkner's fist) and Flash fleishman ( at the end of whitey's) say different.

Go back and watch that torres video, McQuaid wasnt looking for some NHL suit to set things straight. The rules have not changed since the inception of the game, you violate the trust that exists between player and you have to answer for it there on the ice, whether your consent is nice but far from required..

I presume you would be fine with a league full of rats that never have to answer to anyone but shannaban. God help us all.

 

[Hoople]

Habsterix and sandysan. Spot on completely with your posts.

Especially in playoff series, the tone for the games will be set early. Ottawa was able to set a physical tone against Montreal because we hadno answer for that. They were unable to do that against the Pens.

Same for Toronto vs Boston. Even Chicago showed that they were not afraid to dress Bollig against the Bruins.

The best way to reduce the number of fights in a game is to have as much firepower as the team you are facing. The most fights in any series this season involved Montreal. There is a reason for that. And it's not in our advantage.

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

Brian boyle ( at the end of Matt carkner's fist) and Flash fleishman ( at the end of whitey's) say different.

Go back and watch that torres video, McQuaid wasnt looking for some NHL suit to set things straight. The rules have not changed since the inception of the game, you violate the trust that exists between player and you have to answer for it there on the ice, whether your consent is nice but far from required..

I presume you would be fine with a league full of rats that never have to answer to anyone but shannaban. God help us all.

I don't get how you confused what he is saying.

He is saying that dirty hits haven't gone down by players policing themselves. Respect in the NHL seems to be at an all time low. Suspensions are used to deter these kind of hits, not fighting (instigator rule anyone?). But like Habsterix said, you can't suspend the stars.

So no it hasn't always worked, it's currently not working. I am not for a ban in fighting, but I do see it coming, eventually.

 

[Habsterix*]

http://video.canadiens.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=66&lang=en

Thanks for posting that. Neat to see him interact with everyone. Stupid questions by some of the media however, to be expected. Starship Enterprise doors...

 

[sandysan]

I don't get how you confused what he is saying.

He is saying that dirty hits haven't gone down by players policing themselves. Respect in the NHL seems to be at an all time low. Suspensions are used to deter these kind of hits, not fighting (instigator rule anyone?). But like Habsterix said, you can't suspend the stars.

So no it hasn't always worked, it's currently not working. I am not for a ban in fighting, but I do see it coming, eventually.

how do you measure this ? There are tons of examples where players are MORE respectful to day than in years gone by.

And the notion that " suspensions used to deter these kinds of hits" is nothng more than whishfull thinking at best, a bold faced lie at worst.

Again because fighting does not function to absolutely restrict questionable play is not an indication that it "does not work". When you say the number of questionable hits is going up, going up compared to what ? your gut ?

 

[Kriss E]

how do you measure this ? There are tons of examples where players are MORE respectful to day than in years gone by.

And the notion that " suspensions used to deter these kinds of hits" is nothng more than whishfull thinking at best, a bold faced lie at worst.

Again because fighting does not function to absolutely restrict questionable play is not an indication that it "does not work". When you say the number of questionable hits is going up, going up compared to what ? your gut ?

The point isn't that it's going up, the point is that IT IS HIGH, and there isn't a decrease.
It is high with the current way of handling things, which is ridiculous inconsistent suspensions and on ice "policing" (If you wanna call it that). Hence the "how about trying something new" argument.