Post-Game Talk: Habs or Lightning. Who you picking to Win the Stanley Cup ?

[Sens of Anarchy]

In Montreal, they're complaining that the NHL is not respecting them because Bettman didn't congrat them on their run

Comments?

I would not complain but I do think its an oversight. I think normally the team losing in the finals is congratulated for making it there are they not?

 

[Xspyrit]

I would not complain but I do think its an oversight. I think normally the team losing in the finals is congratulated for making it there are they not?

Can't remember, that's why I wanted to ask... Bettman should do it, just a quick cliché like "the NHL is also congratulating team X for making it this far but only 1 team can win blabla"

Then finish by saying "like Leafs fans would tell you, there's always next year!"

 

[Cosmix]

I personally think that it’s pretty crazy that teams can circumvent the cap during the playoffs. That seems inherently unfair.

I really hope the league closes that loophole, obviously they will give it time for the win to digest, but it’s a bit of a dirty win, and really given the times as well an asterisk on both wins.

Yes, the rules regarding the cap need to be adjusted. I would also like to see more revenue sharing amongst all the teams.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Yes, the rules regarding the cap need to be adjusted. I would also like to see more revenue sharing amongst all the teams.

And a couple of their fans. We could be the beta test.

 

[Cosmix]

Ya, was thinking about the same thing. Nothing until October. Sigh.

What have the Romans done for us?

Expansion Draft
Entry Draft
Free Agency
Prospects Camp
Training Camp

 

[Cosmix]

And a couple of their fans. We could be the beta test.

I am not following. Might be drunk.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I am not following. Might be drunk.

revenue sharing. You and I agree to have the NHL share revenue with us as a beta test on the concept

 

[Cosmix]

revenue sharing. You and I agree to have the NHL share revenue with us as a beta test on the concept

Agreed.

 

[Ice-Tray]

However fans feel about it, the reality is that players have never received a salary for the playoffs (or I don't think so, haven't seen anything saying they ever did)

They always played to win, for "pride and honor" and it seems that (for most at least) they play even harder than during the regular season, even if they won't gain (much) more money if they make it to the 2nd round. However, the "Playoff Bonus Pool" set aside the NHL/NHLPA has been growing so they all make an extra bonus that is getting more important every year, even if you lose in the 1st round

But that being said, how would it work if players salaries were for the whole season + playoffs? Would you then reduce the salary for those who don't make the post season?

There's a reason things are done a certain way, and until someone come up with a better solution, it's always useless to criticize it.

Simple really. Players don’t get paid during the playoffs, but the roster still has to conform to the regular season salary limits.

This issue really has nothing to do with anything you posted in terms of players desire and pay. It’s more an on paper extension of what is already in place as a rule all season.

I have no idea why the rules would stop come playoffs, and it wouldn’t really require much to maintain the same rules from the regular season. There is no reason I can see for why it makes sense to remove the cap once the playoffs start.

Not a big deal for us now, but it would suck when we finally make the playoffs and finally spend to or near the cap (I know, Yuks!), to have to face teams that are happily playing over the cap come playoff time.

Curious rule lapse regardless, I’d love to hear it explained by the NHL. You’re right about one thing though, no amount of complaining from me will make a lick of difference!

 

[Xspyrit]

Simple really. Players don’t get paid during the playoffs, but the roster still has to conform to the regular season salary limits.

This issue really has nothing to do with anything you posted in terms of players desire and pay. It’s more an on paper extension of what is already in place as a rule all season.

I have no idea why the rules would stop come playoffs, and it wouldn’t really require much to maintain the same rules from the regular season. There is no reason I can see for why it makes sense to remove the cap once the playoffs start.

Not a big deal for us now, but it would suck when we finally make the playoffs and finally spend to or near the cap (I know, Yuks!), to have to face teams that are happily playing over the cap come playoff time.

Curious rule lapse regardless, I’d love to hear it explained by the NHL. You’re right about one thing though, no amount of complaining from me will make a lick of difference!

The rules don't stop... you can't sign players just in time for the playoffs so it's the same rules, you use the same cap as you did during the regular season. The only thing you dislike is the LTIR which "buys" artificial salary cap space for injured players, which is totally logic since they physically CAN'T play. The Ottawa Senators have used LTIR contracts to reach the CAP FLOOR in recent seasons...

The NHL just has to do due dilligence on those LTIR contracts, pretty sure they do as well. Not very hard for doctors to check medical reports, MRI or x-rays. Don't think doctors are baffling their hippocratic oath just like that. Sure corruption exists but would they put their whole career on the line when it's easily verifiable?

Last game of the 2020 Stanley Cup playoffs was on September 28, Kucherov played through groing issues. He had treatments after winning the Cup, but it wasn't enough so he had to get an hip surgery (not something you want as an athlete but he had no other choice)..., How long does it take to recover from that? Yes you can walk after a few weeks but can you play NHL hockey? No, It takes at least several months... it was a shortened season, do the math

That you remove the cap or not for the playoffs doesn't change anything, you have the same contracts you had during the season. Was it luck for Tampa Bay to have their best player injured all season? Maybe

 

[Ice-Tray]

The rules don't stop... you can't sign players just in time for the playoffs so it's the same rules, you use the same cap as you did during the season. The only thing you dislike is LTIR which "buys" artificial salary cap space for injured players, which is totally logic since they physically CAN'T play.

NHL just has to do due dilligence on those LTIR contracts, pretty sure they do as well. Not very hard for doctors to check MRI or x-rays

Last game of the 2020 Stanley Cup playoffs was on September 28, Kucherov played through groing issues. He had treatments after winning the Cup, but it wasn't enough so he had to get an hip surgery (not something you want as an athlete but he had no other choice)..., How long does it take to recover from that? Yes you can walk after 3-6 weeks but can you play NHL hockey? No, It takes at least 3 months... it was a shortened season, do the math

That you remove the cap or not for the playoffs doesn't change anything, you have the same contracts you had during the season. Was it luck for Tampa Bay to have their best player injured all season? Maybe

Not sure what you’re talking about at all here.

You are going on and on basically arguing with yourself. I’m not questioning Kutches injury, I don’t really care. The other LTIR contracts have zero baring at all in my point either.

My point is that when he gets back off LTIR his replacement salary should have to come off the active roster for the play offs so that the team remains cap compliant on the ice.

Very simple point, no long paragraphs needed. I’m more curious as to why the NHL allows this.

 

[Xspyrit]

Not sure what you’re talking about at all here.

I don't know how to be more clear... Read again?

Hint : that the salary cap counts or not in the playoffs doesn't matter, no team has "new contracts" that weren't there during the season. All you can have is LTIR contracts or buried players.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Read several times until you understand

Hint : that the salary cap counts or not in the playoffs doesn't matter, no team has "new contracts" that weren't there during the season. All you can have is LTIR contracts or buried players.

No dude, you don’t. You can replace LTIR contracts with other players, and then when the playoffs arrive you can activate a player off LTIR without having to remove the replacement money off the roster.

It’s what happened here, that simple really. As I have repeated, I’m curious as to why the league allows cap circumvention for playoffs when it could easily not.

 

[Xspyrit]

No dude, you don’t. You can replace LTIR contracts with other players, and then when the playoffs arrive you can activate a player off LTIR without having to remove the replacement money off the roster.

It’s what happened here, that simple really. As I have repeated, I’m curious as to why the league allows cap circumvention for playoffs when could easily not.

How is it cap circumvention if a player is really injured? Do you have any proof that Kucherov didn't have a hip surgery?

Or, are you saying that LTIR shouldn't exist? In that case, do you think the Lightning is the only team to use LTIR?

 

[Ice-Tray]

How is it cap circumvention if a player is really injured?

That’s an argument for someone else dude, you’re not getting what I’m saying at all.

It doesn’t matter if the injury is real or not. The argument against Tampa this year is that some feel that Kutch was ready before the end of the season, but was not activated because the team would have had to get rid of players to get under the cap. Instead they could wait an extra week and the cap no longer matters and they can activate Kutch without having to move players out to be cap compliant.

I personally don’t care about whether or not he was held out an extra week, in all honestly it makes a lot of sense to do that given the rules.

My point is that the league could easily change the rules so that teams have to be cap compliant all the way through the playoffs as well. I’m curious as to why they don’t.

 

[Xspyrit]

That’s an argument for someone else dude, you’re not getting what I’m saying at all.

It doesn’t matter if the injury is real or not. The argument against Tampa this year is that some feel that Kutch was ready before the end of the season, but was not activated because the team would have had to get rid of players to get under the cap. Instead they could wait an extra week and the cap no longer matters and they can activate Kutch without having to move players out to be cap compliant.

I personally don’t care about whether or not he was held out an extra week, in all honestly it makes a lot of sense to do that given the rules.

My point is that the league could easily change the rules so that teams have to be cap compliant all the way through the playoffs as well. I’m curious as to why they don’t.

Ok but agreed about "without having to remove the replacement money off the roster". Yes the LTIR is "convenient" but I don't think it is "planned", well maybe because I'm not a earth flattener to begin with lol

Yes, the NHL could decide that when you reactivate a LTIR player, you then have to "sit another player" for example. But how would the playoffs cap be calculated then? Teams don't know many days they'll play and it's pro-rata based on work days. Do you start a whole new cap? How would it work? Or not even a playoffs cap but the regular season cap, on the last day of the season or on the first day?

The thing is that would change everything. Until they change all that (and probably will, to readjust teams when players come back from injury), teams having been playing "by the rules". Tampa are lucky to have an owner ready to spend to cover up for injured players.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Ok but agreed about "without having to remove the replacement money off the roster". Yes the LTIR is "convenient" but I don't think it is "planned", well maybe because I'm not a earth flattener to begin with lol

Yes, the NHL could decide that when you reactivate a LTIR player, you then have to "sit another player" for example. But how would the playoffs cap be calculated then? Teams don't know many days they'll play and it's pro-rata based on work days

The thing is that would change everything. Until they change all that, teams having been playing "by the rules". Tampa are lucky to have an owner ready to spend to cover up for injured players.

Such a strange take by you. I don’t think you understand how LTIR works in the regular season, or what happens when a player comes back off LTIR during the regular season.

It’s not flat earth thinking to ponder the parity of two teams playing in the playoffs where one team is 10 million over the salary cap in terms of actual salaries paid to players on the active roster playing in the games each night. Cool if you don’t be weird for you to try and marginalized what seems so obvious to me.

It appears as though the financial cap number would take some work to figure, but even reading your posts super slowly, they read like you’re quoting me but arguing with someone else about something else.

I have no idea why the cheap owner pot shot was needed but…. Sure?

 

[Xspyrit]

Such a strange take by you. I don’t think you understand how LTIR works in the regular season, or what happens when a player comes back off LTIR during the regular season.

It’s not flat earth thinking to ponder the parity of two teams playing in the playoffs where one team is 10 million over the salary cap in terms of actual salaries paid to players on the active roster playing in the games each night. Cool if you don’t be weird for you to try and marginalized what seems so obvious to me.

It appears as though the financial cap number would take some work to figure, but even reading your posts super slowly, they read like you’re quoting me but arguing with someone else about something else.

I have no idea why the cheap owner pot shot was needed but…. Sure?

lol is this for real? I simply said Tampa is lucky to have a rich owner that can spend at will. What does it have to do with a "cheap owner pot shot"?

And lol I know how this works, but it's also a LOT more complicated that it seems for fans (myself included) on capfriendly. There's a boatload of clauses that we don't even know about (see below) and have you seen the "salary relief pool" calculations? We don't know all the implications but the NHLPA and owners have certainly agreed with it, so that's the rules... Could/will they change them? Probably, but as of now that's what they all agreed to work with.

* LTIR FAQ - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

When a player has an injury of which they are expected to miss a minimum of 10 NHL games and 24 days in the NHL season, the team can place them on long term injured reserve (LTIR). LTIR can be used to exceed the salary cap. LTIR is a very complicated aspect of the NHL operations and the vast majority of details are not specified in the CBA.


I don't NEED or WANT to be expert on salary cap and LTIR. But I am pretty sure teams are compliant and it is verified by NHL salary cap experts. Do we need to worry about it more than that? Not at all. Do you want the rules to change? ok, good . Do all teams and players want those changes? It remains to be seen. They will change things when the desire will be expressed

What you're saying is that you want some players to be "forced to sit" to get "cap compliant" when, example, a (more important) LTIR player comes back in the playoffs. What I am saying that it doesn't matter since the cap only "exists" during the regular season, that's the reality for now... but OK I understand your desire (as I have tried to say in my last post). I realize that I was trying to argue against your desire so no point. It's also true that I was kinda "arguing with someone else" because I have seen people saying that Kucherov injury was fake or much longer than it should have been. I initially thought you shared these thoughts

 

[Ice-Tray]

lol is this for real? I simply said Tampa is lucky to have a rich owner that can spend at will. What does it have to do with a "cheap owner pot shot"?

And lol I know how this works, but it's also a LOT more complicated that it seems for fans (myself included) on capfriendly. There's a boatload of clauses that we don't even know about (see below) and have you seen the "salary relief pool" calculations? We don't know all the implications but the NHLPA and owners have certainly agreed with it, so that's the rules... Could/will they change them? Probably, but as of now that's what they all agreed to work with.

* LTIR FAQ - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

When a player has an injury of which they are expected to miss a minimum of 10 NHL games and 24 days in the NHL season, the team can place them on long term injured reserve (LTIR). LTIR can be used to exceed the salary cap. LTIR is a very complicated aspect of the NHL operations and the vast majority of details are not specified in the CBA.


I don't NEED or WANT to be expert on salary cap and LTIR. But I am pretty sure teams are compliant and it is verified by NHL salary cap experts. Do we need to worry about it more than that? Not at all. Do you want the rules to change? ok, good . Do all teams and players want those changes? It remains to be seen. They will change things when the desire will be expressed

What you're saying is that you want some players to be "forced to sit" to get "cap compliant" when, example, a (more important) LTIR player comes back in the playoffs. What I am saying that it doesn't matter since the cap only "exists" during the regular season, that's the reality for now... but OK I understand your desire (as I have tried to say in my last post). I realize that I was trying to argue against your desire so no point. It's also true that I was kinda "arguing with someone else" because I have seen people saying that Kucherov injury was fake or much longer than it should have been. I initially thought you shared these thoughts

Sigh…. I have understood everything you have been saying, there is nothing difficult to digest going on here, it’s simply that virtually none of what you’re saying has anything to do with what I was saying.

No, the LTIR isn’t that complicated, though there are many clauses to cover many situations. I certainly haven’t been discussing the finer points, much less been confused by it in the least. It just doesn’t really matter in terms of what I’ve been discussing.

Obviously it doesn’t matter what I think, because its all within the current rules, and I can’t change that (nor do really care to). Did we really have to have this back and forth so that you could finally come around to that conclusion? It was a point of discussion that intrigued me momentarily, that is all, and it has painfully passed.

To sum up:

Me: weird how there is no cap restraints during the playoffs, some teams can have a roster well beyond the cap in the post season, doesn’t really seem fair or parity focused. Wonder if the league will do something about that.

You: no point talking about cap restraints in the playoffs because there is no cap in the playoffs.

I mean, I agree with much of what you have written, but still come away feeling like I have been talking to myself this whole time.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[Xspyrit]

Sigh…. I have understood everything you have been saying, there is nothing difficult to digest going on here, it’s simply that virtually none of what you’re saying has anything to do with what I was saying.

No, the LTIR isn’t that complicated, though there are many clauses to cover many situations. I certainly haven’t been discussing the finer points, much less been confused by it in the least. It just doesn’t really matter in terms of what I’ve been discussing.

Obviously it doesn’t matter what I think, because its all within the current rules, and I can’t change that (nor do really care to). Did we really have to have this back and forth so that you could finally come around to that conclusion? It was a point of discussion that intrigued me momentarily, that is all, and it has painfully passed.

To sum up:

Me: weird how there is no cap restraints during the playoffs, some teams can have a roster well beyond the cap in the post season, doesn’t really seem fair or parity focused. Wonder if the league will do something about that.

You: no point talking about cap restraints in the playoffs because there is no cap in the playoffs.

I mean, I agree with much of what you have written, but still come away feeling like I have been talking to myself this whole time.

It was very late when we talked about this so yes I could have come to that conclusion earlier because admittedly I assumed things that maybe you were not thinking (like for the Kucherov injury). You were not wrong either that I was not only arguing with you specifically but more with the whole general complaining about it. I understand your concern and I have been saying all that for a few posts now.

I don't have the same concern because I think it takes a very specific context to be able to go over the cap during the playoffs, like I said not something you can plan ahead, it just happens, it's almost like "luck" and it became "convenient" when Kucherov needed hip surgery. It was like very bad news but it fixed their cap problems. Don't think any team would be rejoicing to see their (best) player get a hip surgery, under any circumstances.

And as I said several posts ago, I agree with the principle that teams in that situation shouldn't be able to acquire a guy like David Savard for example. If it were to change (think it will eventually), I have no idea how they would figure out all of this but it's not my business, so I'll let them deal with it.

By the way, the Canadiens (and many other teams) manipulated the cap all season, namely with the taxi squad and performance bonuses

 

[Ice-Tray]

It was very late when we talked about this so yes I could have come to that conclusion earlier because admittedly I assumed things that maybe you were not thinking (like for the Kucherov injury). You were not wrong either that I was not only arguing with you specifically but more with the whole general complaining about it. I understand your concern and I have been saying all that for a few posts now.

I don't have the same concern because I think it takes a very specific context to be able to go over the cap during the playoffs, like I said not something you can plan ahead, it just happens, it's almost like "luck" and it became "convenient" when Kucherov needed hip surgery. It was like very bad news but it fixed their cap problems. Don't think any team would be rejoicing to see their (best) player get a hip surgery, under any circumstances.

And as I said several posts ago, I agree with the principle that teams in that situation shouldn't be able to acquire a guy like David Savard for example. If it were to change (think it will eventually), I have no idea how they would figure out all of this but it's not my business, so I'll let them deal with it.

By the way, the Canadiens (and many other teams) manipulated the cap all season, namely with the taxi squad and performance bonuses

It’s all good man, it was late for me, so it was definitely late for you.

I’m not specifically against the Bolts win, though the Kutcherov come back was sketchy enough that the league did investigate. I do know that it has happened a few times as blatant. Just so you know, the Kutch issue was not that he was injured, it was that he was apparently taking full practices in a contact jersey well before the season ended, but the bolts didn’t activate him off LTIR until after the last day of the regular season. The moment he was cleared to play is the moment he’s supposed to be removed from LTIR. If he had been made active before the end of the season the bolts would have had to clear cap space immediately, changing their roster fairly significantly. I don’t have a bone to pick here personally, but that’s the issue as it is being discussed, not whether the guy was initially injured. We’re talking about a window of a couple of weeks where the bolts COULD have fudged things to their serious advantage. We can all draw our own conclusions here, but in professional sports it’s safe to assume that integrity takes a side seat to giving your team a competitive advantage of you can do it and not get caught.

Far from being worked up, I’m mostly curious as to why the don’t just make the cap rule consistent all through the playoffs. I understand that the in season cap number is a fluid number and that playoffs would have no such salaries to work with. They could simply use an averaged number, or role with the cap number as it was in the final day of the regular season.

Anywho, it looks like a strange, large, and at times very impactful loophole to the entire idea of a hard cap system, especially for a league that trumpets the successes of ‘parity across the league’ every chance they can.

 

[Xspyrit]

It’s all good man, it was late for me, so it was definitely late for you.

I’m not specifically against the Bolts win, though the Kutcherov come back was sketchy enough that the league did investigate. I do know that it has happened a few times as blatant. Just so you know, the Kutch issue was not that he was injured, it was that he was apparently taking full practices in a contact jersey well before the season ended, but the bolts didn’t activate him off LTIR until after the last day of the regular season. The moment he was cleared to play is the moment he’s supposed to be removed from LTIR. If he had been made active before the end of the season the bolts would have had to clear cap space immediately, changing their roster fairly significantly. I don’t have a bone to pick here personally, but that’s the issue as it is being discussed, not whether the guy was initially injured. We’re talking about a window of a couple of weeks where the bolts COULD have fudged things to their serious advantage. We can all draw our own conclusions here, but in professional sports it’s safe to assume that integrity takes a side seat to giving your team a competitive advantage of you can do it and not get caught.

Far from being worked up, I’m mostly curious as to why the don’t just make the cap rule consistent all through the playoffs. I understand that the in season cap number is a fluid number and that playoffs would have no such salaries to work with. They could simply use an averaged number, or role with the cap number as it was in the final day of the regular season.

Anywho, it looks like a strange, large, and at times very impactful loophole to the entire idea of a hard cap system, especially for a league that trumpets the successes of ‘parity across the league’ every chance they can.

It was later for me unless you can beat 3 kids and 3 dogs

I'll try to read/reply later if I don't forget, we're going for a bike ride now

 

[Ice-Tray]

It was later for me unless you can beat 3 kids and 3 dogs

I'll try to read/reply later if I don't forget, we're going for a bike ride now

It was later for you because I’m on the west coast Enjoy the ride!

P.s. I also have three kids

 

[Xspyrit]

It’s all good man, it was late for me, so it was definitely late for you.

I’m not specifically against the Bolts win, though the Kutcherov come back was sketchy enough that the league did investigate. I do know that it has happened a few times as blatant. Just so you know, the Kutch issue was not that he was injured, it was that he was apparently taking full practices in a contact jersey well before the season ended, but the bolts didn’t activate him off LTIR until after the last day of the regular season. The moment he was cleared to play is the moment he’s supposed to be removed from LTIR. If he had been made active before the end of the season the bolts would have had to clear cap space immediately, changing their roster fairly significantly. I don’t have a bone to pick here personally, but that’s the issue as it is being discussed, not whether the guy was initially injured. We’re talking about a window of a couple of weeks where the bolts COULD have fudged things to their serious advantage. We can all draw our own conclusions here, but in professional sports it’s safe to assume that integrity takes a side seat to giving your team a competitive advantage of you can do it and not get caught.

Far from being worked up, I’m mostly curious as to why the don’t just make the cap rule consistent all through the playoffs. I understand that the in season cap number is a fluid number and that playoffs would have no such salaries to work with. They could simply use an averaged number, or role with the cap number as it was in the final day of the regular season.

Anywho, it looks like a strange, large, and at times very impactful loophole to the entire idea of a hard cap system, especially for a league that trumpets the successes of ‘parity across the league’ every chance they can.

Now that I see your whole point, I agree more than I initially thought. It was my mistake to assume it was more "baseless complaining" like I have seen several times already. It's true that the league have nothing yet to prevent for that type of situations, but like for previous "loopholes", they probably will.

Like I said before, no idea how they would manage that but in a situation like this when a player comes back from LTIR, force them to "sit" other player(s) for example. It could have been Killorn (injured) and Tyler Johnson for example. They would have probably won anyways but at least the total "active AAV" would still fit under the salary cap and there would be no cap compliance issue

Also, agreed with "The moment he was cleared to play is the moment he’s supposed to be removed from LTIR", the LTIR explanation says as such even on Cap Friendly... But I would be very surprised if the NHL didn't do their due dilligence on that so not sure exactly what happened. Maybe the CBA protects teams and let them decide when they can re-activate a player based on the nature of the injury (I assume it's the case). In Kucherov's case, a hip surgery is major and there is no "you're 100% after x weeks" type of thing

Also, if Kucherov came back after the trade deadline and before the end of the season, then how can they possibly clear cap space? I'm guessing the CBA didn't have the exact clauses for that situation

In summary, who really knows outside of the doctors involved but the NHL can certainly impose more limitations to this. One thing for sure, I think it'd be extremely complicated to build the clauses for all these scenarios. I personally wouldn't be qualified to do that job