Habs Offseason Discussion Part V...Get it outta your system!!

[Sorinth]

wrong.

you dont trade a D man who has the potential to be something special (his words) when you know you'll have to replace at least one D man every season for the next three or four years...

Your original argument was that we should keep Beaulieu because he's cheap talent. But somehow the logic of locking up Subban for cheap wouldn't have been the right thing too do despite it saving us money for the exact same time period.

Now it's we will need to replacements for Weaver, Gilbert, Markov. Which makes no sense because a) Beaulieu can't replace 3 players so we have to deal with that situation regardless (And you can throw Emelin in year 4). And b) Only Markov will be tough to replace, and there's a good chance Beaulieu can't replace Markov.

You trade someone who has the potential to be something special for someone who is currently special because you need an established player now more than you need a potential one in the future.

 

[Sorinth]

I would actually play Beaulieu with Subban on the first pairing this year. Maybe not in the critical minutes of games but for the most part that would be my pairing. Give Markov a rest and give Beaulieu all the ice he can handle with PK. I don't think you'll have to wait 3-4 years for him to replace Markov. He looked great last year and he's more than ready now.

He looked great at times but he also struggled at times and from the looks of it he was also extremely lucky. His on ice SV% was over .970 for both the regular season and playoffs. The goalies have made him look much better defensively then he is.

 

[417]

Eklund saying that Marleau is mulling over waiving his no-trade clause. A rumor floating around is that the habs are offering Tokarski and an "active roster player" in exchange for Marleau. Picks are also involved per the rumor. Just thought this was interesting to think about, and not taking it seriously at all. Any thoughts?

Oh yeah, its not a trusted source by any means at all, but here's the rumor website if anybody wants to waste some time:

http://thehockeychat.com/

My thoughts is that it would have to be one hell of a roster player to make this trade happen

Dustin Tokarski has nearly no trade value at all...he hasn't proven anything, and teams know they could grab him on waivers if the Habs try to sneak him through

Goalies in general, nevermind backup goalies who have little track record, have very little trade value

 

[Dagistitsyn]

My thoughts is that it would have to be one hell of a roster player to make this trade happen

Dustin Tokarski has nearly no trade value at all...he hasn't proven anything, and teams know they could grab him on waivers if the Habs try to sneak him through

Goalies in general, nevermind backup goalies who have little track record, have very little trade value

Yeah I'm not sure if I like the idea of trading for him.. likely a real good young player going back.

 

[Treb]

My thoughts is that it would have to be one hell of a roster player to make this trade happen

Dustin Tokarski has nearly no trade value at all...he hasn't proven anything, and teams know they could grab him on waivers if the Habs try to sneak him through

Goalies in general, nevermind backup goalies who have little track record, have very little trade value

Well Lindback had 38 games and received two 2nd and a 3rd. You never know with some GM, we may get lucky.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Your original argument was that we should keep Beaulieu because he's cheap talent. But somehow the logic of locking up Subban for cheap wouldn't have been the right thing too do despite it saving us money for the exact same time period.

Now it's we will need to replacements for Weaver, Gilbert, Markov. Which makes no sense because a) Beaulieu can't replace 3 players so we have to deal with that situation regardless (And you can throw Emelin in year 4). And b) Only Markov will be tough to replace, and there's a good chance Beaulieu can't replace Markov.

You trade someone who has the potential to be something special for someone who is currently special because you need an established player now more than you need a potential one in the future.

we did havew him for cheap -> ELC + bridge... and at this point, with a few good seasons PLUS a Norris, it was time to lock our #1 ELITE D MAN for as long as possible... and we wont compete with other teams to re-sign him or have to give him much more because he had other good to great seasons, it's done now, PK will be a Habs all is career (or most of it), stop complaining, be happy about it...

and yeah, PK making 9 per does not mean players on the cheap dont help, it's the opposite actually, and it's the reason why Toffoly/Pearson werent traded by LA or Saad/Shaw by Chicago, etc...

without those youngsters on the cheap, these teams cannot afford their star players, and it's the same for us, it's a very very basic concept that anyone not trolling should get... very very easy.

and yeah, there will be players to be replaced on D, and our best prospect not a regular NHLer yet is Beaulieu... Tinordi doesnt have offense so he wont be special, Nygren/Patteryn will have a hard time just becoming regular NHLer... and your idea is (to get a special player it will take MUCH more than one good prospect) to trade away our best prospect, a very good pick (1st/2nd), another roster player, maybe more even... bravo!! so to fill one hole you idea is to create two others elsewhere, awesome!!

 

[Habsawce]

Dustin Tokarski
David Desharnais
2nd

for

Patrick Marleau


One can dream right?

 

[Sorinth]

we did havew him for cheap -> ELC + bridge... and at this point, with a few good seasons PLUS a Norris, it was time to lock our #1 ELITE D MAN for as long as possible... and we wont compete with other teams to re-sign him or have to give him much more because he had other good to great seasons, it's done now, PK will be a Habs all is career (or most of it), stop complaining, be happy about it...

and yeah, PK making 9 per does not mean players on the cheap dont help, it's the opposite actually, and it's the reason why Toffoly/Pearson werent traded by LA or Saad/Shaw by Chicago, etc...

without those youngsters on the cheap, these teams cannot afford their star players, and it's the same for us, it's a very very basic concept that anyone not trolling should get... very very easy.

This is exactly the point that people bring up for why Subban should have gotten a long term deal right out of his ELC. It would have resulted in having Subban on a cheap deal for longer. Yet you've argued repeatedly that the bridge deal was the smart move.

If as you say it's vital to have talented players on cheap deals (A point I agree with) then why didn't that logic apply to Subban on a bridge deal vs a long term deal?

and yeah, there will be players to be replaced on D, and our best prospect not a regular NHLer yet is Beaulieu... Tinordi doesnt have offense so he wont be special, Nygren/Patteryn will have a hard time just becoming regular NHLer... and your idea is (to get a special player it will take MUCH more than one good prospect) to trade away our best prospect, a very good pick (1st/2nd), another roster player, maybe more even... bravo!! so to fill one hole you idea is to create two others elsewhere, awesome!!

It's very debatable whether Beaulieu is our best defensive prospect. There are many who will consider Tinordi the better player. You might think Nygren will have a hard time being a regular but that's far from a guarantee.

Only Markov will be hard to replace, so Weaver/Gilbert aren't reasons to keep Beaulieu. And in Markov's case Beaulieu isn't likely to be his equal either.

And if you think Beaulieu is such a special player that he'll be Markov good within the next 3 years then why would we have to throw in all these extras to get a good player in return?

 

[Brainiac]

Dustin Tokarski
David Desharnais
2nd

for

Patrick Marleau


One can dream right?

Hey, I think we have a worthy successor to Halak, Ryder and a 2nd.

Keep on dreaming.

 

[VirginiaMtlExpat]

He looked great at times but he also struggled at times and from the looks of it he was also extremely lucky. His on ice SV% was over .970 for both the regular season and playoffs. The goalies have made him look much better defensively then he is.

I don't see it as luck. I see it as a very mobile player taking away time and space from opposing forwards, which leads to lower quality chances than if the latter were dealing with a slower defender.

Not to belabor a point, but dealing Beaulieu resonates a lot like the McDonaugh deal for me. I don't see the hurry to deal him. I would rather wait things out, and see how he, Tinordi and Nygren play out, then try to deal Nygren at his peak value (or better still, deal Pateryn). We're not desperate to deal, and with our depth, some other team will be more desperate than us. Sell high, buy low; dealing Beaulieu now would be selling low.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

If you want to discuss the Subban bridge contract, can you do it in the Subban thread?

 

[ECWHSWI]

This is exactly the point that people bring up for why Subban should have gotten a long term deal right out of his ELC. It would have resulted in having Subban on a cheap deal for longer. Yet you've argued repeatedly that the bridge deal was the smart move.

If as you say it's vital to have talented players on cheap deals (A point I agree with) then why didn't that logic apply to Subban on a bridge deal vs a long term deal?



It's very debatable whether Beaulieu is our best defensive prospect. There are many who will consider Tinordi the better player. You might think Nygren will have a hard time being a regular but that's far from a guarantee.

Only Markov will be hard to replace, so Weaver/Gilbert aren't reasons to keep Beaulieu. And in Markov's case Beaulieu isn't likely to be his equal either.

And if you think Beaulieu is such a special player that he'll be Markov good within the next 3 years then why would we have to throw in all these extras to get a good player in return?

huh no, people against the bridge deal are going with the RUMOR of a 5X5 deal two years ago (meaning he'd only have 3 years left on it before becoming UFA), so it's next 3 years vs next 8 years, compplaining about the bridge because you are i9n favor of having PK longterm makes no sense at all...

simple, given his play it was pretty clear PK would eventually cost LOTS of money and that pretty much every team would be interested in such a player... he's the exception, not the kind of guy you sign on the cheap for 4 or 5 years thinking "bah, ay worst we'll sign a comparable UFA when his contrat is up", no, you make sure to have him as long as possible, if it cost you more, so be it. Last thing you do is put yourself in a position where you risk losing him for free while he's in his prime...

you may not remember, but there was a time not long ago, before Subban was a Habs, where not having Markov in the lineup pretty much guaranteed a Habs loss, PK is in that category when it comes to impact on the team... you want players who can have such an impact on your team to play for you as long as possible... even if it means paying more.

at the age Beaulieu is right now, PK was already playing on the first pair, even in the PO, Beaulieu is fighting to get a spot on the team... comparing both is stupid.




nope, no guarantees, but Nygren is 24 already and doesnt have a single NHL game played, and we already have our three guys on the right, PK, Gilbert and Weaver...


huh, YOU are the one who talked about him having the potential to be special... YOU're the one who brought this up not me.

 

[Kriss E]

huh no, people against the bridge deal are going with the RUMOR of a 5X5 deal two years ago (meaning he'd only have 3 years left on it before becoming UFA), so it's next 3 years vs next 8 years, compplaining about the bridge because you are i9n favor of having PK longterm makes no sense at all...

simple, given his play it was pretty clear PK would eventually cost LOTS of money and that pretty much every team would be interested in such a player... he's the exception, not the kind of guy you sign on the cheap for 4 or 5 years thinking "bah, ay worst we'll sign a comparable UFA when his contrat is up", no, you make sure to have him as long as possible, if it cost you more, so be it. Last thing you do is put yourself in a position where you risk losing him for free while he's in his prime...

you may not remember, but there was a time not long ago, before Subban was a Habs, where not having Markov in the lineup pretty much guaranteed a Habs loss, PK is in that category when it comes to impact on the team... you want players who can have such an impact on your team to play for you as long as possible... even if it means paying more.

at the age Beaulieu is right now, PK was already playing on the first pair, even in the PO, Beaulieu is fighting to get a spot on the team... comparing both is stupid.




nope, no guarantees, but Nygren is 24 already and doesnt have a single NHL game played, and we already have our three guys on the right, PK, Gilbert and Weaver...


huh, YOU are the one who talked about him having the potential to be special... YOU're the one who brought this up not me.

You have weird of reality, guys like Doughty-Karlsson-McDo-Pietro-OEL-etc are all guys that teams are signing to 5ish years at a very reasonable price. They take full advantage of their RFA years. So I guess all those teams and GMs have a poor understanding of how to manage those guys. They should all bridge them so they can pay them 4M more later.
If you knew you would eventually have to break the bank for PK then grab the most cheap years you can get out of him, just like those teams do with those other guys.

What a bizarro world.

 

[Hackett]

Dustin Tokarski
David Desharnais
2nd

for

Patrick Marleau


One can dream right?

So this is the 2014 version of Ryder, halalk, 2nd?

 

[habitue*]

You have weird of reality, guys like Doughty-Karlsson-McDo-Pietro-OEL-etc are all guys that teams are signing to 5ish years at a very reasonable price. They take full advantage of their RFA years. So I guess all those teams and GMs have a poor understanding of how to manage those guys. They should all bridge them so they can pay them 4M more later.
If you knew you would eventually have to break the bank for PK then grab the most cheap years you can get out of him, just like those teams do with those other guys.

What a bizarro world.

But next time Doughty and many of these guys will make 10-12 million each.

 

[Kriss E]

But next time Doughty and many of these guys will make 10-12 million each.

Doughty still has 5 years on his deal. How much he'll make after and just how much of it represents off the cap is a crap shoot.

PK is making 9M now. I don't understand how people are trying to spin this around as if ''hey in a few years he'd cost 2-3M more''. If that's all you can say to justify his huge hit, you don't have anything. I believe Arpon Basu (or was it someone else?) said the same thing on the radio a few days ago.

You think the NYR are smacking their foreheads saying ''man I really wish we gave McDo a bridge deal so we could give him 8 years around 9M in 2 years''??? Or are they ecstatic to have such a skilled and important player signed for 6years at 5M?
The answer is obvious.

 

[ECWHSWI]

You have weird of reality, guys like Doughty-Karlsson-McDo-Pietro-OEL-etc are all guys that teams are signing to 5ish years at a very reasonable price. They take full advantage of their RFA years. So I guess all those teams and GMs have a poor understanding of how to manage those guys. They should all bridge them so they can pay them 4M more later.
If you knew you would eventually have to break the bank for PK then grab the most cheap years you can get out of him, just like those teams do with those other guys.

What a bizarro world.

why in hell are you talking about 5ish deals ?? none of the players you listed signed for less than 6 years, not a single one...

and all but one signed for more than 5 per...

Karlsson is already at 6.5, Doughty at 7.0, Pietro at 6.5... but yeah, they're giving their respective teams such a discount, they'll get a 4M raise in their next contract


bizarro yeah, much more than comparing a rumored 5X5 deal with the ones those guys signed

 

[ECWHSWI]

Doughty still has 5 years on his deal. How much he'll make after and just how much of it represents off the cap is a crap shoot.

PK is making 9M now. I don't understand how people are trying to spin this around as if ''hey in a few years he'd cost 2-3M more''. If that's all you can say to justify his huge hit, you don't have anything. I believe Arpon Basu (or was it someone else?) said the same thing on the radio a few days ago.

You think the NYR are smacking their foreheads saying ''man I really wish we gave McDo a bridge deal so we could give him 8 years around 9M in 2 years''??? Or are they ecstatic to have such a skilled and important player signed for 6years at 5M?
The answer is obvious.

McDo is signed till he's 30... not to a Pejorative Slured 5 years deal that would bring him straight to UFA at 27/28.

 

[habitue*]

Doughty still has 5 years on his deal. How much he'll make after and just how much of it represents off the cap is a crap shoot.

PK is making 9M now. I don't understand how people are trying to spin this around as if ''hey in a few years he'd cost 2-3M more''. If that's all you can say to justify his huge hit, you don't have anything. I believe Arpon Basu (or was it someone else?) said the same thing on the radio a few days ago.

You think the NYR are smacking their foreheads saying ''man I really wish we gave McDo a bridge deal so we could give him 8 years around 9M in 2 years''??? Or are they ecstatic to have such a skilled and important player signed for 6years at 5M?
The answer is obvious.

Strong possibilities that Doughty or McDo could sign elsewhere,though. We have P.K for eight years.

 

[Kriss E]

why in hell are you talking about 5ish deals ?? none of the players you listed signed for less than 6 years, not a single one...

and all but one signed for more than 5 per...

Karlsson is already at 6.5, Doughty at 7.0, Pietro at 6.5... but yeah, they're giving their respective teams such a discount, they'll get a 4M raise in their next contract


bizarro yeah, much more than comparing a rumored 5X5 deal with the ones those guys signed

Because I was involving the possible 5year deal of PK, but make it into a 6y deal if you want. Heck, make it into a 7 year deal. The 5x5 year deal is only representative in that PK wanted a long deal right away. He said it again after the deal he just signed. 5x5 is the base that was let out is just something to work on. What if another year could have been added? That would have been fine? Or 2?

Are you suggesting that 6.5 and 7M aren't discounts for those guys? And this is after you just saw PK sign for 9M?

McDo is signed till he's 30... not to a Pejorative Slured 5 years deal that would bring him straight to UFA at 27/28.

OEL is signed until he's 28, and I thought 30-31 were prime years. They're not anymore? So it doesn't matter that all these guys are set to become UFAs between 28-30??

 

[Kriss E]

Strong possibilities that Doughty or McDo could sign elsewhere,though. We have P.K for eight years.

Why would they if their teams want them back? People don't just move out of the city they've been living in for about 10 years and founded their family because they're set to become UFA. They need to be unhappy on some level.
They've made friends, they've built relationships, they've gotten used to the city, possibly got married, built a home, founded a family, maybe they even won a cup or lived some very awesome moments with the team that drafted and developed them right from the start.
So if they're happy playing for their respective teams and the city they live in, why would they just pack up everybody and leave? And if it's because they're just looking for a new challenge, it's not a decision they'll make on a whim. So you can very well be aware of their intentions and you could trade them before it's too late. The return they would bring back would be pretty big.

Them becoming UFA in multiple years is really the least of concerns. It's just something people spit out in order to justify the bridge deal.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Because I was involving the possible 5year deal of PK, but make it into a 6y deal if you want. Heck, make it into a 7 year deal. The 5x5 year deal is only representative in that PK wanted a long deal right away. He said it again after the deal he just signed. 5x5 is the base that was let out is just something to work on. What if another year could have been added? That would have been fine? Or 2?

Are you suggesting that 6.5 and 7M aren't discounts for those guys? And this is after you just saw PK sign for 9M?



OEL is signed until he's 28, and I thought 30-31 were prime years. They're not anymore? So it doesn't matter that all these guys are set to become UFAs between 28-30??

Yup, and it has nothing in common with other contracts signed for a higher AAV and longer term.


added ? or maybe substracted... guess you would been fine with 4 years at 7 or something, cause you know it's only one less year and only a million or two more...


Nope, I'm suggesting that it's more than 5 per and for longer than 5 years...


but hey! keep drinking the 5X5 Kool aid.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Immaturity and poor work ethic? Think Kabanov. Im sure Boolieu will be fine.

I hope so. Its never good to read the kinds of stories we've read about him. But his talent makes it worth the risk.

He looked great at times but he also struggled at times and from the looks of it he was also extremely lucky. His on ice SV% was over .970 for both the regular season and playoffs. The goalies have made him look much better defensively then he is.

Well, he was on the ice with bad defensemen a lot of the time too. He made Murray almost look competent and that's not easy to do.

My thoughts is that it would have to be one hell of a roster player to make this trade happen

Dustin Tokarski has nearly no trade value at all...he hasn't proven anything, and teams know they could grab him on waivers if the Habs try to sneak him through

Goalies in general, nevermind backup goalies who have little track record, have very little trade value

Tokarski for Marleau? Yeah, I don't think so either. And who knows what the heck SJ is looking to do now? I don't think they're in full rebuild mode now so its going to take a lot more than picks and prospects. Beaulieu probably would be required and if he is, I'd pass.

 

[Kriss E]

Yup, and it has nothing in common with other contracts signed for a higher AAV and longer term.

They're longer deals offered on their 2nd contracts. Keep up.

added ? or maybe substracted... guess you would been fine with 4 years at 7 or something, cause you know it's only one less year and only a million or two more...

And who's the comparable 7M player signed to 4 years coming off his ELC?
Or are you telling that this hypothetical contract is more similar to 5x5 than one like OEL of 6x5?
Man you're desperate..

Nope, I'm suggesting that it's more than 5 per and for longer than 5 years...

So what, they're still players that are going to become UFA in their supposed primed years which is your whole argument as to why you don't want PK signed to a longer deal off his ELC.

but hey! keep drinking the 5X5 Kool aid.

So 6 years would have been good for you? Or will you play the ''let me avoid the question'' game?
Better yet, do you think Phx made a mistake with OEL? He's set to become UFA at 28. Or will you avoid this question too?

 

[Scintillating10]

Gonna be quite a different team next year. Vanek, Gorges, Gionta gone. Rookies be breaking thru. I expect he'll add a star at the deadline.