Habs Offseason Discussion Part V...Get it outta your system!!

[Sorinth]

Well, there's the difference I guess. I think he will be.

We'll see. He's young and he's had off ice issues. Maybe he won't be as good as I project he will be. But to me, he looks like a future first pairing guy. I don't think he'll be a star player but I think he'll be a very good core player for us.

This might be another difference. To me a first pairing guy is a star player.

But I won't begrudge a guy who thinks Beaulieu will work out his issues, all of us are right sometimes and wrong other times. He certainly has the potential to be special.

For me the fact that I think we are close to contending makes losing a potential star, bearable so long as we get one back. Waiting for Beaulieu and company risks us losing our window. You see Beaulieu replacing Markov, if that takes 3-4 years then our window might be closed. Plekanec will be nearing the end, our current stars Price, Subban, Pacioretty will be at or near the end of their prime (Though in all likelyhood they'll still be good just not great). Even guys like Eller who I believe in will be reaching UFA status and so we can't pencil them in the lineup. And really Beaulieu bing able to replace Markov doesn't make us better it leaves us the same.

 

[ECWHSWI]

And how long will we have Beaulieu for cheap? His ELC is done after this year, he'll get a bridge deal that you love so much and in 3 time years will require a hefty raise (If he pans out). So we'd have him for cheap for the exact same time as we'd have Subban for cheap.

We would've have been a better team if we had a cheap Subban and traded Bealieu for an established player, then having an expensive Subban and a cheap Beaulieu. Now is the time we should be pushing for it.

get over it, it's in your head.

except there's already Weaver who'll be gone next year, then following year is Gilbert, and the year after it's Markov...

 

[Kriss E]

get over it, it's in your head.

except there's already Weaver who'll be gone next year, then following year is Gilbert, and the year after it's Markov...

Which reinforces his point.

 

[Miller Time]

The real problem is that we don't have a lot of room, this is where Subban at 5m instead of 9m would make a huge difference but that bridge was burnt. I think we'd have to look at dumping Desharnais or Bourque for nothing to free up our own cap space.

yup...

saving ~4M$/year on Subban's contract for the next 2-3 years would have put us in a golden position.


the timing of everything is perfect for a team with the financials to spend to the cap, a roster close to contention (as opposed to a rebuild/re-tool like Calgary or Vancouver), and enough cap space to make 1-2 moves trading picks/prospects/depth players for established players on contracts too expensive for their existing cap-crunch teams to hold on to.

We could've been poised to really take advantage of this offseason, and even more so next offseason, where the cap looks to be going up substantially (which will drive new contracts up even more, doubling the pressure on teams with important RFA/UFA's to shuffle their roster to keep their stars).


but... ship has sailed... Bergevin is proving to be far less schrewd/astute than we had hoped... unfortunate, but frankly, as long as he doesn't go off the deep end the way Gainey did, or make it a habit of mismanaging assets/misjudging pro talent the way Gauthier did, then that's something... right?

 

[ECWHSWI]

Which reinforces his point.

wrong.

you dont trade a D man who has the potential to be something special (his words) when you know you'll have to replace at least one D man every season for the next three or four years...

 

[Kriss E]

wrong.

you dont trade a D man who has the potential to be something special (his words) when you know you'll have to replace at least one D man every season for the next three or four years...

If it means getting an established player (who could also be a D), then yes, you absolutely do it.

 

[ECWHSWI]

If it means getting an established player (who could also be a D), then yes, you absolutely do it.

actually, considering he's one of the very few prospects we have who could realistically become a top 4 D, within the next two years or so, it would be incredibly dumb to trade him.

trading him means, this year no Beaulieu, next season no Beaulieu and no Weaver, the next would be with no Beaulieu, no Weaver and no Gilbert... and so on...

 

[NobleSix]

Eklund saying that Marleau is mulling over waiving his no-trade clause. A rumor floating around is that the habs are offering Tokarski and an "active roster player" in exchange for Marleau. Picks are also involved per the rumor. Just thought this was interesting to think about, and not taking it seriously at all. Any thoughts?

Oh yeah, its not a trusted source by any means at all, but here's the rumor website if anybody wants to waste some time:

http://thehockeychat.com/

 

[Kriss E]

actually, considering he's one of the very few prospects we have who could realistically become a top 4 D, within the next two years or so, it would be incredibly dumb to trade him.

trading him means, this year no Beaulieu, next season no Beaulieu and no Weaver, the next would be with no Beaulieu, no Weaver and no Gilbert... and so on...

1- You ignore the fact the return could be a DMAN.
2- Tinordi could be in the top 4 within 2 years. Some even say they want him paired with PK this year (although I'd disagree).
3- Weaver was acquired for a 5th rd pick, re-signed, he's making 1.75M. If he's solid, then why wouldn't we re-sign him? He'll be looking for the jackpot at 37M?
4- Gilbert was signed as an UFA at 2.8M. You might want him gone in 2 years. If he's solid, again, why wouldn't we be able to extend him?

Even if Weaver and Gilbert didn't re-sign, you're talking about two Dman that don't even add up to 5M. Since when has replacing these type of players been difficult?
Also, what happened to Pateryn and Nygren? I guess they just don't develop into much of anything..?

The idea that we have to absolutely hold on to Beaulieu is pretty weird.

 

[ECWHSWI]

1- You ignore the fact the return could be a DMAN. -> SO WHAT ?
2- Tinordi could be in the top 4 within 2 years. Some even say they want him paired with PK this year (although I'd disagree). -> Gorges is gone cause he was a top 4 D with no offense to his game... so chances that no offense Tinordi makes the top 4 are slim
3- Weaver was acquired for a 5th rd pick, re-signed, he's making 1.75M. If he's solid, then why wouldn't we re-sign him? He'll be looking for the jackpot at 37M? -> no, I expect 37 yo Weaver to last forever...
4- Gilbert was signed as an UFA at 2.8M. You might want him gone in 2 years. If he's solid, again, why wouldn't we be able to extend him? -> as of now, that's what we're getting from him, 2 years.

Even if Weaver and Gilbert didn't re-sign, you're talking about two Dman that don't even add up to 5M. Since when has replacing these type of players been difficult?
Also, what happened to Pateryn and Nygren? I guess they just don't develop into much of anything..?

The idea that we have to absolutely hold on to Beaulieu is pretty weird.

Payyrtyn and Nygren are 24, one hasnt played a single NHL game yet... it's nice that you're positive about them and al' but prepare to be disappointed.

You know why it's weird ? cause you're obsessed with the idea that we should go all in next two seasons.

 

[JusticeBeaver]

Eklund saying that Marleau is mulling over waiving his no-trade clause. A rumor floating around is that the habs are offering Tokarski and an "active roster player" in exchange for Marleau. Picks are also involved per the rumor. Just thought this was interesting to think about, and not taking it seriously at all. Any thoughts?

Oh yeah, its not a trusted source by any means at all, but here's the rumor website if anybody wants to waste some time:

http://thehockeychat.com/

I came across this guy on twitter and didn't know what to think. He doesn't have much of a following so it's hard to give him much credit.

Thing is, what roster player? And wtf Patty Marleau is 35? Time is flying by

 

[habsfanatics*]

1- You ignore the fact the return could be a DMAN.
2- Tinordi could be in the top 4 within 2 years. Some even say they want him paired with PK this year (although I'd disagree).
3- Weaver was acquired for a 5th rd pick, re-signed, he's making 1.75M. If he's solid, then why wouldn't we re-sign him? He'll be looking for the jackpot at 37M?
4- Gilbert was signed as an UFA at 2.8M. You might want him gone in 2 years. If he's solid, again, why wouldn't we be able to extend him?

Even if Weaver and Gilbert didn't re-sign, you're talking about two Dman that don't even add up to 5M. Since when has replacing these type of players been difficult?
Also, what happened to Pateryn and Nygren? I guess they just don't develop into much of anything..?

The idea that we have to absolutely hold on to Beaulieu is pretty weird.

I don't think we must hold onto him, but I think it's the right thing to do. I'm a big NB fan, being from Saint John and having watched him develop, I like what I see. I think he'll be as good or better than the player/player(s) we'd receive in a trade just a few years down the road. He's a core guy imo. Not only is his talent very high, his trade value isn't, so to get a significant piece for him we would need to ad additional picks/players, creating a hole somewhere else. I'd prefer the cost-controlled, already NHL quality player rather than some sort of upgrade for significantly more cap space.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Eklund saying that Marleau is mulling over waiving his no-trade clause. A rumor floating around is that the habs are offering Tokarski and an "active roster player" in exchange for Marleau. Picks are also involved per the rumor. Just thought this was interesting to think about, and not taking it seriously at all. Any thoughts?

Oh yeah, its not a trusted source by any means at all, but here's the rumor website if anybody wants to waste some time:

http://thehockeychat.com/

Not to give any credibility to this rumour but I don't doubt high end players view of the Canadiens has changed. Given the weak East and the fact Boston and Pittsburgh have began to wane, the Habs present an excellent opportunity to an older player to make it to the Cup Finals. I can see a Marleau type player wanting to come to Montreal via trade or free agency for a shot especially in the nest 2-3 years as we get better, more mature and more used to the pressure of winning in the playoffs.

Hopefully when the cap moves up and youngsters continue to move up we can get a Marleu type guy or two to help us get over the hump and win a Cup. Just don't think we're there just yet.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Burrows at the trade deadline? He still has 3 years left on his deal and he is pretty **** already.

Given I watch the Canucks as much as the Habs, Burrows is far from done. He suffered two injuries that contributed to the derailment of his season. Even then he was an excellent PKer, solid defensive but extremely snake bitten; something I fault Torts for. If Burrows bounced back, he is easily good for 20+ goals and wouldn't cost much to get.

Ideally, I would prefer Marleau or Ryan though.

 

[JusticeBeaver]

Not to give any credibility to this rumour but I don't doubt high end players view of the Canadiens has changed. Given the weak East and the fact Boston and Pittsburgh have began to wane, the Habs present an excellent opportunity to an older player to make it to the Cup Finals. I can see a Marleau type player wanting to come to Montreal via trade or free agency for a shot especially in the nest 2-3 years as we get better, more mature and more used to the pressure of winning in the playoffs.

Hopefully when the cap moves up and youngsters continue to move up we can get a Marleu type guy or two to help us get over the hump and win a Cup. Just don't think we're there just yet.

Pretty much what Malhotra said when he signed here.

MB has been making waves, the league knows the atmosphere is changing in Montreal. So happy I'm not a leaf fan.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

Lets not forget that Pittsburgh has won the cup in their era using this strategy. If you feel like you are within your window you have to go for it. If that means giving up high picks, you do it. What Pittsburgh will do, as soon as their window is about to close, is trade away their vets for picks to restock the cupboard. Imagine how much Crosby could get them even when he is 35. The trick is not too wait too long to start the rebuilding process because your vets will lose value with every passing year.

The one year they won the cup, who did they acquired before the playoff that fits into that strategy?

I personally think clever cap management is securing your depth with a constant influx of ELCs or RFA. Penguins are having cap trouble, in part, because they keep losing these picks and dont have quality youth to pick up the pace.

 

[bsl]

Has nothing to do with being media savvy. I don't remember PK getting into fights at golf tournaments.

Subban was much more mature then Beaulieu was at the same age. Maybe Beaulieu grows out of it maybe he doesn't. Beaulieu has allegedly had work ethic problems in Hamilton. There has never been any question in regards to PK's work ethic.

You should take those things into consideration and not just pure potential.

You do know that Guy Lafleur was immature as hell right? The guy knew nothing about being an adult when he joined Habs. What is this crap you are talking? Go ahead, trade away the best D prospect in Habs system. McDonaugh ring any bells? I don't give two ****s about maturity. And work ethic is for people that have to work in factories and offices. Talent does not need to do that. Almost all NHL players are immature, egocentric and spoiled. Who ****ing cares. I want skill, talent and speed. Beaulieu supplies that, in spades. It's just hockey dude, not the Prime Minister's Cabinet.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

You do know that Guy Lafleur was immature as hell right? The guy knew nothing about being an adult when he joined Habs. What is this crap you are talking? Go ahead, trade away the best D prospect in Habs system. McDonaugh ring any bells? I don't give two ****s about maturity. Almost all NHL players are immature, egocentric and spoiled. Who ****ing cares. I want skill and speed. It's just hockey dude, not the Prime Minister's Cabinet. Huge shakehead.

Actually, it could be demonstrated that most of the world's greatest leaders were probably jerks, personally.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Given I watch the Canucks as much as the Habs, Burrows is far from done. He suffered two injuries that contributed to the derailment of his season. Even then he was an excellent PKer, solid defensive but extremely snake bitten; something I fault Torts for. If Burrows bounced back, he is easily good for 20+ goals and wouldn't cost much to get.

Ideally, I would prefer Marleau or Ryan though.

Bobby Ryan would be great. Still in his mid 20s, good for 30 goals when healthy. I think he would've had a great season if he hadn't been hurt last year. Problem is that Ottawa is going to be in no mood to deal with us.

Marleau's good but he's older. I don't like the idea of dealing away younger players for somebody his age.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

This might be another difference. To me a first pairing guy is a star player.

But I won't begrudge a guy who thinks Beaulieu will work out his issues, all of us are right sometimes and wrong other times. He certainly has the potential to be special.

For me the fact that I think we are close to contending makes losing a potential star, bearable so long as we get one back. Waiting for Beaulieu and company risks us losing our window. You see Beaulieu replacing Markov, if that takes 3-4 years then our window might be closed. Plekanec will be nearing the end, our current stars Price, Subban, Pacioretty will be at or near the end of their prime (Though in all likelyhood they'll still be good just not great). Even guys like Eller who I believe in will be reaching UFA status and so we can't pencil them in the lineup. And really Beaulieu bing able to replace Markov doesn't make us better it leaves us the same.

I would actually play Beaulieu with Subban on the first pairing this year. Maybe not in the critical minutes of games but for the most part that would be my pairing. Give Markov a rest and give Beaulieu all the ice he can handle with PK. I don't think you'll have to wait 3-4 years for him to replace Markov. He looked great last year and he's more than ready now.

 

[Sorinth]

You do know that Guy Lafleur was immature as hell right? The guy knew nothing about being an adult when he joined Habs. What is this crap you are talking? Go ahead, trade away the best D prospect in Habs system. McDonaugh ring any bells? I don't give two ****s about maturity. And work ethic is for people that have to work in factories and offices. Talent does not need to do that. Almost all NHL players are immature, egocentric and spoiled. Who ****ing cares. I want skill, talent and speed. Beaulieu supplies that, in spades. It's just hockey dude, not the Prime Minister's Cabinet.

The bolded is pure BS.

You think Crosby isn't where he is because of work ethic? You think Subban would be as successful if he simply coasted on talent and didn't work his ass off?

No one knows how Beaulieu will turn out, his immaturity simply increases the risk of him not reaching his potential.

 

[Kriss E]

Payyrtyn and Nygren are 24, one hasnt played a single NHL game yet... it's nice that you're positive about them and al' but prepare to be disappointed.

You know why it's weird ? cause you're obsessed with the idea that we should go all in next two seasons.

So I have an obsession with wanting to go for it?? And you're trying to argue that this is a bad thing? I've heard it all now...
Ya, those darn fans who wants the team to contend when they just finished top 4 in back to back years, and were just 2 games away from ECF! Damn them all to hell!

 

[Kriss E]

So I have an obsession with wanting to go for it?? And you're trying to argue that this is a bad thing? I've heard it all now...
Ya, those darn fans who wants the team to contend when they just finished top 4 in back to back years, and were just 2 games away from ECF! Damn them all to hell!

Can't Edit, but obviously meant Stanley Cup Final not ECF.

 

[Kriss E]

I don't think we must hold onto him, but I think it's the right thing to do. I'm a big NB fan, being from Saint John and having watched him develop, I like what I see. I think he'll be as good or better than the player/player(s) we'd receive in a trade just a few years down the road. He's a core guy imo. Not only is his talent very high, his trade value isn't, so to get a significant piece for him we would need to ad additional picks/players, creating a hole somewhere else. I'd prefer the cost-controlled, already NHL quality player rather than some sort of upgrade for significantly more cap space.

I'm not saying we should trade Beaulieu for scraps obviously. I'm not even saying we have to trade him period. I responded to ECWHSWI claim that we can't trade Beaulieu for an established player because after next season Weaver is going to be UFA and after the following year, Gilbert will be UFA as well.
It's a ridiculous reasoning. If there's a possibility to make a trade, and yes it can be a package not Beaulieu alone, that would improve our team, then you do it.
The fact Weaver and Gilbert are on 1 and 2 year contracts is completely irrelevant.
If we have a chance to improve our team, we do it.

 

[Big Lurk]

The bolded is pure BS.

You think Crosby isn't where he is because of work ethic? You think Subban would be as successful if he simply coasted on talent and didn't work his ass off?

No one knows how Beaulieu will turn out, his immaturity simply increases the risk of him not reaching his potential.

Immaturity and poor work ethic? Think Kabanov. Im sure Boolieu will be fine.