Agreed, there's been a marked change from his early season play and the past 2-3 games. The guy is backchecking hard and much stronger on the boards. He's winning puck battles now. If we don't lock him up long term, some other team will, and they'll love all the good stuff he picked up from his year with the Red Wings.
Gustav Nyquist to the Red Wings, is it time?
- Thread starter RedWinger10
- Start date
Agreed, there's been a marked change from his early season play and the past 2-3 games. The guy is backchecking hard and much stronger on the boards. He's winning puck battles now. If we don't lock him up long term, some other team will, and they'll love all the good stuff he picked up from his year with the Red Wings.
Vladdy84
L-O-Y-A-L-T-Y
I know this is a Nyquist thread, but I want to agree with a couple of the previous posts:
Brunner's backchecking has been fantastic the past 3 games. A couple of times I couldn't help but think "that's almost Hossa-like."
In addition, he's starting to win more board battles. He's definitely a player that is willing and improving his overall game. He's been a very solid pick up. A great pick up when you consider that he's never played in the NHL before.
Brunner's backchecking has been fantastic the past 3 games. A couple of times I couldn't help but think "that's almost Hossa-like."
In addition, he's starting to win more board battles. He's definitely a player that is willing and improving his overall game. He's been a very solid pick up. A great pick up when you consider that he's never played in the NHL before.
Henkka
Registered User
Maybe the playoffs that the roster limit is gone? We can't call Nyquist without making a room for him.
Id prefer Brunner over Flip at the same price point. I hope they lock him up and we move Flip and bring in a Perry type for Datsyuks wing. Let Cleary and Bert go and put Nyquist on the other wing.
joe89
#5
- Apr 30, 2009
- 20,313
- 174
Health so he can send down Andersson. Then injuries so he can call up Nyquist. I fully expect Andersson to be the first sent down and Nyquist getting the next callup.
Maize and Blue
Registered User
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
I expect all of the Grand Rapids guys to be down on April 2nd. That was they are eligible for the AHL playoffs. They can be recalled after that, but that is how I understand that rule so people should probably prepare for that unless I am missing how that functions which I might be.
Not as simple this year because of the shortened season and the AHL ruling.
SoupNazi
Serenity now. Insanity later.
- Feb 6, 2010
- 26,411
- 14,476
If we are out of the playoff hunt I expect them to help propel Grand Rapids through the playoffs, so they'll be gone when GR starts the playoffs.
Why not? He's a PPG player and the Wings are in dire need of offense. He'd be a hell of alot better on Datsyuk's wing than Abby or Cleary!!!
GT500x
Im OK where we're at
Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
- Jul 27, 2010
- 36,243
- 14,751
What if we hurt Nyquist's development keeping him in a league he has been a ppg player for 2 years and letting his game stagnate and over-ripe?
What if Nyquist resents the fact that we cost him over a million dollars in salary when he's clearly good enough to play in the NHL?
What if Nyquist resents the fact that we re-signed Samuelsson and have terrible players like Cleary and Abby in our top 6 taking roster spots, when he is clearly a better player than all 3 of them?
I don't know what is going on behind the scenes, and there is probably no issue. But there could be some consequences towards the philosophy you mentioned.
InjuredChoker
Registered User
Not just could. Will/is.
That's the way I see it.
If Smith had been up last season, he could have demanded more money this summer; now he doesn't have much leverage. Same with Tatar and Andersson, next year with Nyquist. That's the way Wings have handled kids on their ELC's. Keeps that second contract small. This year we see the downside of it, though as Smith has been struggling. There might be some more into it, he's skating doesn't look that great.
As Henkka said 'you can thank Holland in few years that we kept the kids in AHL'. Or something like that reg. cap management. Well, we'll see. Just better hope that they won't be so pissed and bitter about that they will walk when they hit UFA.
Henkka
Registered User
There's no smoke without fire...
What if we are going to tank this season to get a high pick in a superb draft? Or not maybe tank, tank if everything goes bad way, but to keep every possibilities open and decide it at the trade-deadline what we are going to do. Kind of choosen mediocrity toward the trade deadline, and then decide to tank or push.
We are using "not-the-best-possible" guys (with already multi-million contracts) in front of younger guys and not giving them ice-time. Putting Nyquist & Tatar with Datsyuk would lead high-scoring games, and not maybe better results, but it would also lead to higher future caphits.
When these young guys are re-signed, I almost guarantee everyone is seeing better ice-time immediately. Same has happened before with Filppula and Hudler, same has happened with Smith and Kindl and so on.
So because season situation is what it is, no chance to win own division, just hang on the playoff run somehow with all these injuries, but also in a danger to fall out completely, that's the plan now.
I'm starting to believe that it's an organizational pattern, because it's happening all the time. Summer signings etc. We use most worthy contracts all the time getting the best ice-time, no matter who is playing best. The millions will play. That controls contracts with a pressure for raise, when already better salaries takes the ice-time and possible production.
Only exception in this is Brunner, but when you think his usage, he isn't used perfect either. They have putting him on the point on PP, that he has no experience, to reduce his goal totals. Lots of less accurate shots, and shots blocked. At "Stamkos" position he would have scored 15 already. He will get his perfect role immediately after a contract extension.
It's even harder to believe, that Babcock would be moron as a coach, not doing some pretty obvious things, he could be just completing the plan that comes from our upper management.
***
So, the organizational goal is to build economically healthy contender for the future with this mediocrity plan for this season. If everything goes bad way, there's the shortest possible season to be lost awarded with a high pick in deep and great draft. If everything goes good way, we take the kids use at playoffs and try to make run there. We'll see the best possible team at the playoffs for sure. Just like Nyquist was there at last playoffs. No roster limits, and he will be on the team. Period.
We have new wave of kids coming. They want to bring these kids on the roster, but with controlled caphits, not giving an open lane to high scoring lines and high salary demands. There's league full of bad examples. They don't want any more Hudler's in the team. Salary arbitrations. He's the only one to get there, and after few years he was out from organization. All the time battle about money, bad years and good years at contract years. 5 millions from Russia. Money money money.
You can't have any bad caphit there, when building a contender under cap era, because it's leads to collapse in salary hierarchy. One bad caphit, and it affects every teammates salary demand like a virus. Just look at Colorado, and Paul Stastny's contract there. It has just created horrible situation, where David Joneses and Ryan O'Reillys are demanding crazy contracts. Every guy is doing the same, you start to losing guys in free agancy, guys hold the negotiations and are vulnerable to offer-sheets and every crap like that. It's very important to keep away from these parties by effective salary control.
Holland wants to avoid this completely, when our current prospect core peaks at ~2019, we are not going to lose anybody, if those salries are perfectly controlled. Then we avoind those weak years we had after 2009 finals. Then avoid the same thing that happened to Chicago after 2010. St. Louis Blues offence is perfect example how it should be build economily perfect.
***
So after 1-2 seasons, when we have Nyquist and Tatar in the team with low caphits, they take the 2nd line duties from those old vets (Bert, Sammy, Cleary). There's some others playing in 1st lines, like Franzen and Brunner with bigger, but reasonable salaries, no problem here, they are not the most expensive 1st liners either.
Then those second line young guys (Nyquist & Tatar) control the caphits of the second wave of forward prospects, like Sheahan, Andersson, Järnkrok and Ferraro. You don't have to sign veterans anymore in front of them, because the 1st wave of prospects with good caphit are now those "salary controlling veterans". Then Nyquist and Tatar gets the icetime and these younger guys are in the "doghouse". They try get in bigger role and the competition inside the roster beacomes healthy and reasonable. The situation isn't that bad on that day, because Tatar and Nyquist are with low caphits, so if Järnkrok does well, you can use him more than Tatar is used now, because he is compared to cheaper Tatar. In this season's situation, if you give Cleary's ice time to Tatar, Tatar starts demanding Cleary's 2.8 million. In future seasons, Järnkrok could demand only Tatar's salary.
That could be the idea in whole thing. Holland signed veterans in front of the 1st wave on young prospects to control their salaries. That doesn't mean that he is going to sign veterans in front of every wave of our prospects in the future also. That doesn't need to happen, because it's Nyquist and Tatar that controls those later waves of youngers guys, when we spend these first years with them wisely.
Something is "wrong" in there, we all kind of know it. Mediocrity now, low scoring hockey now = better future.
EDIT:
Millions of typoes.
What if we are going to tank this season to get a high pick in a superb draft? Or not maybe tank, tank if everything goes bad way, but to keep every possibilities open and decide it at the trade-deadline what we are going to do. Kind of choosen mediocrity toward the trade deadline, and then decide to tank or push.
We are using "not-the-best-possible" guys (with already multi-million contracts) in front of younger guys and not giving them ice-time. Putting Nyquist & Tatar with Datsyuk would lead high-scoring games, and not maybe better results, but it would also lead to higher future caphits.
When these young guys are re-signed, I almost guarantee everyone is seeing better ice-time immediately. Same has happened before with Filppula and Hudler, same has happened with Smith and Kindl and so on.
So because season situation is what it is, no chance to win own division, just hang on the playoff run somehow with all these injuries, but also in a danger to fall out completely, that's the plan now.
I'm starting to believe that it's an organizational pattern, because it's happening all the time. Summer signings etc. We use most worthy contracts all the time getting the best ice-time, no matter who is playing best. The millions will play. That controls contracts with a pressure for raise, when already better salaries takes the ice-time and possible production.
Only exception in this is Brunner, but when you think his usage, he isn't used perfect either. They have putting him on the point on PP, that he has no experience, to reduce his goal totals. Lots of less accurate shots, and shots blocked. At "Stamkos" position he would have scored 15 already. He will get his perfect role immediately after a contract extension.
It's even harder to believe, that Babcock would be moron as a coach, not doing some pretty obvious things, he could be just completing the plan that comes from our upper management.
***
So, the organizational goal is to build economically healthy contender for the future with this mediocrity plan for this season. If everything goes bad way, there's the shortest possible season to be lost awarded with a high pick in deep and great draft. If everything goes good way, we take the kids use at playoffs and try to make run there. We'll see the best possible team at the playoffs for sure. Just like Nyquist was there at last playoffs. No roster limits, and he will be on the team. Period.
We have new wave of kids coming. They want to bring these kids on the roster, but with controlled caphits, not giving an open lane to high scoring lines and high salary demands. There's league full of bad examples. They don't want any more Hudler's in the team. Salary arbitrations. He's the only one to get there, and after few years he was out from organization. All the time battle about money, bad years and good years at contract years. 5 millions from Russia. Money money money.
You can't have any bad caphit there, when building a contender under cap era, because it's leads to collapse in salary hierarchy. One bad caphit, and it affects every teammates salary demand like a virus. Just look at Colorado, and Paul Stastny's contract there. It has just created horrible situation, where David Joneses and Ryan O'Reillys are demanding crazy contracts. Every guy is doing the same, you start to losing guys in free agancy, guys hold the negotiations and are vulnerable to offer-sheets and every crap like that. It's very important to keep away from these parties by effective salary control.
Holland wants to avoid this completely, when our current prospect core peaks at ~2019, we are not going to lose anybody, if those salries are perfectly controlled. Then we avoind those weak years we had after 2009 finals. Then avoid the same thing that happened to Chicago after 2010. St. Louis Blues offence is perfect example how it should be build economily perfect.
***
So after 1-2 seasons, when we have Nyquist and Tatar in the team with low caphits, they take the 2nd line duties from those old vets (Bert, Sammy, Cleary). There's some others playing in 1st lines, like Franzen and Brunner with bigger, but reasonable salaries, no problem here, they are not the most expensive 1st liners either.
Then those second line young guys (Nyquist & Tatar) control the caphits of the second wave of forward prospects, like Sheahan, Andersson, Järnkrok and Ferraro. You don't have to sign veterans anymore in front of them, because the 1st wave of prospects with good caphit are now those "salary controlling veterans". Then Nyquist and Tatar gets the icetime and these younger guys are in the "doghouse". They try get in bigger role and the competition inside the roster beacomes healthy and reasonable. The situation isn't that bad on that day, because Tatar and Nyquist are with low caphits, so if Järnkrok does well, you can use him more than Tatar is used now, because he is compared to cheaper Tatar. In this season's situation, if you give Cleary's ice time to Tatar, Tatar starts demanding Cleary's 2.8 million. In future seasons, Järnkrok could demand only Tatar's salary.
That could be the idea in whole thing. Holland signed veterans in front of the 1st wave on young prospects to control their salaries. That doesn't mean that he is going to sign veterans in front of every wave of our prospects in the future also. That doesn't need to happen, because it's Nyquist and Tatar that controls those later waves of youngers guys, when we spend these first years with them wisely.
Something is "wrong" in there, we all kind of know it. Mediocrity now, low scoring hockey now = better future.
EDIT:
Millions of typoes.
Last edited:
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
I disagree with you a bit here. First off Hudler spent every single available season in the minors to control his caphit. He was still very difficult to sign - arbitration, bolted to Russia, we all know the drill. So the idea that keeping guys in the minors will prevent this from happening is countered by our experience with Jiri Hudler.
Pavel Datsyuk has provided us with tough negotiations but you know what? He's freaking awesome. A guy like Pavel Datsyuk is:
a) Exactly what we need to find among our prospects
and
b) Is worth the hassle because he's so good
If one of our prospects ends up being a Stasny, a Jones or an O'Reilly that's great for us because we have far too many Helms, Abdelkaders, Emmertons, Anderssons, etc. We need a skilled guy who will be a force on a scoring line. Seriously our last one we drafted and developed was Johan Franzen almost a decade back. Do we have a sure fire lock coming to Detroit anytime soon? Nyquist and Jarnkrok both seem to have potential but it's far from a guarantee that they will become those types of players.
Overall I agree with you that this is a season where Holland will wait for the next 10 or so games to see where we really stand. With all of the injuries I think this is the perfect time to bring up guys to see how they perform. We've had good success thus far:
- Lashoff is a legit bottom 4 d-man who can likely replace Q if necessary, saving us $3m.
- Tatar is proving he can fill that Jiri Hudler middle 6 role just fine, again saving us money
- Andersson is proving to be a better center than Abby w/a lower cap hit
I've never been overly critical of Ken Holland and I think he can make the most out of what will ultimately be a lost season by finding out exactly what our prospects are capable of as NHL'ers. I can see why Babcock doesn't want to use the slightly built Nyquist on a scoring line, but why not call up Sheahan and see if he can add anything to Pavs' line?
