Greatest multi Cup winner: Lightning vs Pens vs Blackhawks vs Kings

[JaegerDice]

The Capitals and Penguins traded three series that were widely recognized as being “the Stanley cup final”.

if you want to pretend otherwise that’s fine.

By who? The same people that picked the Washington Capitals to beat the Penguins and win the cup each of those years?

 

[LightningStorm]

The Capitals and Penguins traded three series that were widely recognized as being “the Stanley cup final”.

if you want to pretend otherwise that’s fine. The pens and caps did exactly what the Hawks and Kings did in 2013-2015. Only the Caps and Pens have actually been playoff contenders outside of that run from 16-18.

As mentioned earlier, the winner of all 3 series came closer to losing the next round than their series against each other. Caps were even underdogs against the Bolts in 2018.

 

[SUX2BU]

Hawks

 

[Gurglesons]

As mentioned earlier, the winner of all 3 series came closer to losing the next round than their series against each other. Caps were even underdogs against the Bolts in 2018.

Not sure why this means anything? In 2013 the Hawks went seven games with the Wings and 5 with the Kings.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Hawks are keeping the seat warm until the Lightning win three in a row.


Calling it now. Yes, going out on a limb.

Would Seabrook get a fourth ring?

 

[Peat]

Have to say, mild eyebrow raise at the people talking down the Caps of '16 and '17 when a fairly unchanged Caps team went and won it in '18 after they finally beat the Pens.

Also regardless of what the number of games says, Caps in '16 were at least equal to Bolts in '16, and notably better than the Sens in '17. Flower stole us the '17 series and we then made a bit of a meal adapting to Ottawa's trap, but it always felt fairly assured once we had.

 

[Sun God Nika]

I think Tampa it was never in question that they were gonna lose they did have that let down against Columbus but still that team is just stacked stacked no disrespect to Chicago who is really close . Pittsburgh could have lost to Ottawa with a goal in game 7 ot and they wouldn’t be here

 

[Gurglesons]

I think Tampa it was never in question that they were gonna lose they did have that let down against Columbus but still that team is just stacked stacked no disrespect to Chicago who is really close . Pittsburgh could have lost to Ottawa with a goal in game 7 ot and they wouldn’t be here

Pittsburgh in 2017 was so good that they won without their # 1 defenseman.

 

[LightningStorm]

Not sure why this means anything? In 2013 the Hawks went seven games with the Wings and 5 with the Kings.

As mentioned above, the Hawks/Kings being the true SCF applies more to 2014 than 2013. Heck, had the Kings won in 2013, there's a good chance they would've been underdogs to the Bruins (a match up of the last 2 champs at the time). But for 2014, the WCF winner would be clear favorites over the Rangers.

But regardless of the debate on whether the Hawks/Kings and Pens/Caps were true or false equivalences, and conceding that the Pens B2B was more impressive doing it in full 82 game seasons, the Bolts and Hawks did have better and deeper rosters, and would've matched up well against the Pens in a hypothetical matchup.

 

[Gurglesons]

As mentioned above, the Hawks/Kings being the true SCF applies more to 2014 than 2013. Heck, had the Kings won in 2013, there's a good chance they would've been underdogs to the Bruins (a match up of the last 2 champs at the time). But for 2014, the WCF winner would be clear favorites over the Rangers.

But regardless of the debate on whether the Hawks/Kings and Pens/Caps were true or false equivalences, and conceding that the Pens B2B was more impressive doing it in full 82 game seasons, the Bolts and Hawks did have better and deeper rosters, and would've matched up well against the Pens in a hypothetical matchup.

I fail to see how the Hawks from 2013 - 2015 had a better or deeper roster?

The Hawks from 2013 - 2015 were relying on Handzus or Brad Richards as their 2C.

The Penguins had Crosby and Malkin up the gut and then had Phil Kessel who was basically as offensively talented as anyone on those Hawks teams.

I can buy Tampa, but they also got away with being over the cap for an entire season this year and playing in shortened seasons which I feel somewhat discredits them.

 

[LightningStorm]

I fail to see how the Hawks from 2013 - 2015 had a better or deeper roster?

The Hawks from 2013 - 2015 were relying on Handzus or Brad Richards as their 2C.

The Penguins had Crosby and Malkin up the gut and then had Phil Kessel who was basically as offensively talented as anyone on those Hawks teams.

I can buy Tampa, but they also got away with being over the cap for an entire season this year and playing in shortened seasons which I feel somewhat discredits them.

That's only forward though. Not only are Keith and Hedman a tier above Letang as #1 d-men, but the Hawks and Bolts were also deeper on defense. And in goal, I don't think anyone disputes Vasilevskiy is better than the Fleury/Murray tandem, and I'd take Crawford over them too due to better consistency.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's only forward though. Not only are Keith and Hedman a tier above Letang as #1 d-men, but the Hawks and Bolts were also deeper on defense. And in goal, I don't think anyone disputes Vasilevskiy is better than the Fleury/Murray tandem, and I'd take Crawford over them too due to better consistency.

So are we comparing the teams in 16-17 or are we comparing the legacy of the players?

My understanding is if you took the best roster available in the respective years and put it up against the best roster available in the respective years of the other team. Which would mean you have peak Matt Murray who was an absolute stud for those two years regular season and playoffs.

If we are arguing Hedman and Keith was a tier above Letang which I fail to agree with given what Letang did for PIT in 15-16. Then Crosby and Malkin have no comparable on either roster. And I fail to see who the Hawks or Tampa have that compares to peak HBK in terms of "depth".

 

[ColbyChaos]

I fail to see how the Hawks from 2013 - 2015 had a better or deeper roster?

The Hawks from 2013 - 2015 were relying on Handzus or Brad Richards as their 2C.

The Penguins had Crosby and Malkin up the gut and then had Phil Kessel who was basically as offensively talented as anyone on those Hawks teams.

I can buy Tampa, but they also got away with being over the cap for an entire season this year and playing in shortened seasons which I feel somewhat discredits them.

Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Oduya, Rozi, Leddy as your Dcore for 2013. Thats 3 top pairing D to the one top pairing D pit had in 16. The Hawks #6 in 2013 was better than Pits #1 in 2017

You mention kessel but in 2016 and 17 he was a 65pt player who was a net negative on the ice despite being a 3rd liner.

Saad-Toews-Hossa

Kane line

Hawks had a 3rd line Sharp-Vermette-Terravainen...

Grind line of Dejardins-Kruger-Shaw (Prime Kruger and a 20goal 40pt Winger on their 4th line)

Look at the dusters Pit trotted out as their wingers for their top 6 and then compare them to Kane, Hossa, Saad, Versteeg, having two better centers doesnt make for a deeper lineup when the rest of the positions are inferior. Unlike Kessel, prime sharp was able to be PPG without being on the ice for a ton of goals against.

Youre comparing a lineup with 4 hall of famers to 2

 

[Gurglesons]

Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Oduya, Rozi, Leddy as your Dcore for 2013. Thats 3 top pairing D to the one top pairing D pit had in 16. The Hawks #6 in 2013 was better than Pits #1 in 2017

You mention kessel but in 2016 and 17 he was a 65pt player who was a net negative on the ice despite being a 3rd liner.

Saad-Toews-Hossa

Kane line

Hawks had a 3rd line Sharp-Vermette-Terravainen...

Grind line of Dejardins-Kruger-Shaw (Prime Kruger and a 20goal 40pt Winger on their 4th line)

Look at the dusters Pit trotted out as their wingers for their top 6 and then compare them to Kane, Hossa, Saad, Versteeg, having two better centers doesnt make for a deeper lineup when the rest of the positions are inferior. Unlike Kessel, prime sharp was able to be PPG without being on the ice for a ton of goals against.

Youre comparing a lineup with 4 hall of famers to 2

Jake Guentzel, Patric Hornqvist, Chris Kunitz, and Bryan Rust are dusters?

Fail to see the difference between Saad and Hornqvist.

Guentzel put up more goals in one playoffs than Hossa, Saad, Versteeg, etc did in the COMBINED Cup years of 13 and 15 playoffs.

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Kunitz - Malkin - Rust
HBK
Fehr - Cullen - Sheary

That forward depth is pretty much unparalleled in terms of the teams above. Every single player in the line-up was good for nearly 20 goals.

PIT essentially had the equivalent of Brad Richards at 2C at 4C. Richards put up 37 pts in 14-15. Cullen put up 32 and 31 pts playing without Patrick Kane and playing the shittiest usage possible.

You'll get no argument from me about the Hawks D being better in 2013.

Although, I think the Penguins easily have 4 HOFs in Kessel, Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury on their team in 15-16 and 16-17.

 

[Three On Zero]

Hawks easily

 

[ColbyChaos]

Jake Guentzel, Patric Hornqvist, Chris Kunitz, and Bryan Rust are dusters?

Fail to see the difference between Saad and Hornqvist.

Guentzel put up more goals in one playoffs than Hossa, Saad, Versteeg, etc did in the COMBINED Cup years of 13 and 15 playoffs.

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Kunitz - Malkin - Rust
HBK
Fehr - Cullen - Sheary

That forward depth is pretty much unparalleled in terms of the teams above. Every single player in the line-up was good for nearly 20 goals.

PIT essentially had the equivalent of Brad Richards at 2C at 4C. Richards put up 37 pts in 14-15. Cullen put up 32 and 31 pts playing without Patrick Kane and playing the shittiest usage possible.

Rust wasnt anything special in 2016 or 17, neither was Kunitz who was also washed at that point. Hornqvist produced less than Saad in 15-17 so still inferior. Hawks had one of the best defensive Cs in the league on their fourth line. There is a reason why the Hawks always Dach slapped the Pens whenever they met...

 

[Gurglesons]

Rust wasnt anything special in 2016 or 17, neither was Kunitz who was also washed at that point. Hornqvist produced less than Saad in 15-17 so still inferior. Hawks had one of the best defensive Cs in the league on their fourth line. There is a reason why the Hawks always Dach slapped the Pens whenever they met...

Rust had more points in the back to back runs than Saad did in 2013 and 2015.

Hornqvist in 15-16 would've been the Hawks 5th best forward respectively in their two runs. Saad had one goal and 6 points in the 2013 run. So acting like he was anything special because he had a bunch of goals in 2015 is certainly something.

You want to include 2014 in the conversation. Cool let's be fair and include 2018 then for PIT since that was largely the same squad that went to war in 15-16 and 16-17.

Guentzel 1.14 PPG
Crosby 1.12 PPG
Malkin .95 PPG
Kessel .89 PPG
Hornqvist .62 PPG
Bonino .56 PPG
Kunitz .52 PPG
Hagelin .44 PPG

Kane .95 PPG
Toews .80 PPG
Hossa .73 PPG
Sharp .63 PPG
Richards .62 PPG
Tuevo .56 PPG
Bickell .53PPG
Saad .51 PPG

Hm. Which team had more offensive depth the one where Kunitz was 36 and producing like Tuevo, Saad, and playoff hero Bryan Bickell?

Penguins third best forward was producing like Kane through the three year samples.

 

[LightningStorm]

So are we comparing the teams in 16-17 or are we comparing the legacy of the players?

My understanding is if you took the best roster available in the respective years and put it up against the best roster available in the respective years of the other team. Which would mean you have peak Matt Murray who was an absolute stud for those two years regular season and playoffs.

If we are arguing Hedman and Keith was a tier above Letang which I fail to agree with given what Letang did for PIT in 15-16. Then Crosby and Malkin have no comparable on either roster. And I fail to see who the Hawks or Tampa have that compares to peak HBK in terms of "depth".

It's a combination of what each team did during their B2B and their overall legacy. For example, we do have to factor in how Murray was better in his early career than now. But you can't go as far as saying those 2 years are the only thing that counts, otherwise you could say Point is better than Crosby and Malkin because IMO he did have better B2B postseasons in the Bolts titles, and obviously that would be foolish. I guess you'd give their B2B seasons the most weight, but you also gotta factor in the surrounding seasons, if that makes sense.

You mention how 2016 was around when both Letang and Murray were at their best. But even then they are still below Keith, Hedman and Vasilevskiy, who by the way were also at their best in these spans. They were the Conn Smythe winners in 2015, 2020 and 2021 after all. Keith and Hedman those postseasons were better than Letang on both ends of the ice. And while I thought Murray had solidified his spot as the Pens long term starter in 2016, he was still a tier below what Vasy is now. My main point is the Bolts top d-man and goalie have won the Norris and Vezina once each and have been finalists for those 2 trophies a combined 9 times, including both of them for the 4th straight year in 2021 (5th straight Norris nominee for Hedman), and are the 2 CS winners for Tampa in their B2B. Meanwhile, Letang is only a one time Norris finalist without a win and Murray has never been a Vezina finalist. In addition, neither has a Smythe.

I've never disputed that Crosby and Malkin are the 2 best players on all 4 teams in this thread. My case for the Bolts and Hawks being better has always been they have a noticeable edge in other areas that make up for the fact that the Pens have the 2 best players, most notably the edge both have in d-men and the Bolts edge in net. Overcoming the other team having 2 players better than your best player isn't insurmountable in the NHL the way it is in the NBA.

 

[Peat]

NHL award voting is a frequently ropey guide as to what's actually going on, as witnessed by Letang being further away from the Norris than Crosby was from the Hart this season when Letang was probably in the better form.

 

[ColbyChaos]

Rust had more points in the back to back runs than Saad did in 2013 and 2015.

Hornqvist in 15-16 would've been the Hawks 5th best forward respectively in their two runs. Saad had one goal and 6 points in the 2013 run. So acting like he was anything special because he had a bunch of goals in 2015 is certainly something.

You want to include 2014 in the conversation. Cool let's be fair and include 2018 then for PIT since that was largely the same squad that went to war in 15-16 and 16-17.

Guentzel 1.14 PPG
Crosby 1.12 PPG
Malkin .95 PPG
Kessel .89 PPG
Hornqvist .62 PPG
Bonino .56 PPG
Kunitz .52 PPG
Hagelin .44 PPG

Kane .95 PPG
Toews .80 PPG
Hossa .73 PPG
Sharp .63 PPG
Richards .62 PPG
Tuevo .56 PPG
Bickell .53PPG
Saad .51 PPG

Hm. Which team had more offensive depth the one where Kunitz was 36 and producing like Tuevo, Saad, and playoff hero Bryan Bickell?

Penguins third best forward was producing like Kane through the three year samples.

Pit faced teams that have either

A: Never won a post season series

B: Never made it to the conference finals

C: Cinderella teams on a fluke run.

Chicago on the otherhand actually faced teams that actually won. Not every team gets to play the elite contenders of Ottawa and Columbus....

 

[Gurglesons]

Pit faced teams that have either

A: Never won a post season series

B: Never made it to the conference finals

C: Cinderella teams on a fluke run.

Chicago on the otherhand actually faced teams that actually won. Not every team gets to play the elite contenders of Ottawa and Columbus....

Minnesota Wild both years. Went to seven games with the Detroit Red Wings in 2013. Nashville Predators. Tampa Bay who hadn’t won a playoff series in four years. K

 

[ItWasJustified]

Tampa Bay are definitely in the bottom. It's not impressive to win a Stanley Cup while being 18 million over the cap. It just isn't.

 

[Nasti]

It’s not the question that was posed but neither the Lightning nor the Penguins would be able to beat the Kings or Blackhawks of 2014. What made that WCF so good was that you had two nearly unbeatable teams playing at the top of their games going toe to toe, blow for blow.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

Chicago easily but its 2010, 2013 & 2015 for them. 3 cups in a 6 season span.
Lol each and every time that goal song played it got into the head of the opposing team, just listen to Kevin Bieksa and Ryan Kesler talk about it

Little did they know they'd be hearing it again in 2015 for about 7 times a playoff game lol.

 

[Get North]

It’s not the question that was posed but neither the Lightning nor the Penguins would be able to beat the Kings or Blackhawks of 2014. What made that WCF so good was that you had two nearly unbeatable teams playing at the top of their games going toe to toe, blow for blow.

Yeah those WCF in 2013 and 2014 are great. It says something that the next 3 cups come from Crosby (2x) and Ovechkin. It's like a storybook ending for the 2010 era.

Blackhawks had all 5 positions covered, Sharp Toews Kane Keith Seabrook. Incase Sharp wasn't feeling good they had Hossa. I think the top 9 forwards and top 4 defencemen are carried by Chicago which is all that is required to win a single game as proven by them.