Greatest goal scorer ever? Ovy or?

[Albatros]

Gretzky's strength was in finding the angles, but as such he was a product of a specific era and never really adapted when that came to end.

 

[Regal]

Gretzky's scoring fell off a cliff early leaving his peak short, while Selänne was one of the very best in the league still in his mid-30s and could exceed 30 goals as a 40-year-old.

Selanne being one of the best 35+ goalscorers doesn't overcome the fact that he wasn't close to Gretzky up to age 35. Gretzky fall as a goalscorer was abrupt, but his prime wasn't short. He had 5 goalscoring titles and finished top 10 in 9 of his first 10 seasons. Some of Gretzky's post prime goalscoring seasons weren't any worse than some of Selanne's prime years.

 

[Albatros]

Selänne wasn't the most consistent definitely, he had some rubbish years, but he did excel three different eras which is the main reason why he holds not only the senior record but the rookie one to go with it as well.

 

[Walter Sobchak]

When you adjust for era and scoring rates I think it's hard to overlook Ovechkin's career trajectory. If he's not # 1 all time he is right there at the top.

By the way, why no Jagr?

 

[Hippasus]

Never said you said that.

People vote because they didn't see him play. If they did they would know he was a clear #2 of his own era.

His playoff record is great. Doesn't make up for his lack of rockets and longevity.

That's nice but the op is asking for GOAT, not top 3 or 5. A guy who was the clear #2 of his era has zero argument for being the GOAT. People who vote for him just look at his GPG with zero context and ignore the facts. You aren't arguing anything because there is no argument. Bossy doesn't belong in this discussion.

One can make an argument for Bossy over Gretzky if one weighs prime and playoffs highly. Bossy's prime can be shown to be cumulatively and narrowly better through a comparison of their respective competition between peers numbers.

 

[Hippasus]

When careers overlapped (79/80-86/87)

Bossy: 451 goals in 679 GP = 0.66 GPG
Gretzky: 543 goals in 632 GP = 0.86 GPG

Rockets:
Ovechkin/Hull: 7
Gretzky/Howe/Richard: 5
Lemieux: 3
Bossy: 2

GPG wins:
Ovechkin/Hull: 8
Lemieux: 6
Richard: 5
Gretzky/Howe: 3
Bossy: 1

Combined:
Ovechkin/Hull: 15
Richard: 10
Lemieux: 9
Gretzky/Howe: 8
Bossy: 3

Bossy GOAT!!

This is unfair to Bossy because you're lopping off part of his career whilst not doing the same for Gretzky. Then for part of your argument you're only looking at top placings for stuff, thus overlooking notable prime activity. Again, mostly on Bossy's part.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Really the only people that should be on this list are Gretzky, Howe, Ovechkin, Lemieux and Hull.

But ya, it's Ovechkin and by the end of his career it will be undeniable.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Ovechkin.

Crosby has no business being there as an option. Both Hulls and Bure deserve to be way ahead of him.

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

petterson

 

[Regal]

One can make an argument for Bossy over Gretzky if one weighs prime and playoffs highly. Bossy's prime can be shown to be cumultively and narrowly better through a comparison of their respective competition between peers numbers.

I would like to see this argument, because I don't see any possible one. Gretzky has better finishes, GPG finishes, and dominance over his peers in his wins. Even in the playoffs, Gretzky has a slightly better GPG in his Edmonton years (81 in 120 games) than Bossy has in his career (85 in 129).

 

[Chimpradamus]

You cannot compare eras. End of story.

 

[Hippasus]

I would like to see this argument, because I don't see any possible one. Gretzky has better finishes, GPG finishes, and dominance over his peers in his wins. Even in the playoffs, Gretzky has a slightly better GPG in his Edmonton years (81 in 120 games) than Bossy has in his career (85 in 129).

If one accumulates the ratios of domination over the average first-liner from the top-three placings in the Richard race, Bossy has 11.904 and Gretzky has 10.333, since Bossy has seven such entries and Gretzky has five. Salient seasons in descending order of magnitude: Bossy: 78-79, 80-81, 85-86, 77-78, 81-82, 82-83, 84-85; Gretzky: 81-82, 83-84, 84-85, 82-83, 86-87.

 

[hockey4sale]

Crosby? Is this a parody poll?

 

[Plural]

One can make an argument for Bossy over Gretzky if one weighs prime and playoffs highly. Bossy's prime can be shown to be cumulatively and narrowly better through a comparison of their respective competition between peers numbers.

Do you have the data at hand?

 

[Regal]

If one accumulates the ratios of domination over the average first-liner from the top-three placings in the Richard race, Bossy has 11.904 and Gretzky has 10.333, since Bossy has seven such entries and Gretzky has five. Salient seasons in descending order of magnitude: Bossy: 78-79, 80-81, 85-86, 77-78, 81-82, 82-83, 84-85; Gretzky: 81-82, 83-84, 84-85, 82-83, 86-87.

Why would you stop at top 3 though? Gretzky has two 4th place finishes, a 5th and a 6th. Bossy's next highest finishes are a 5th and a 7th. It seems like an arbitrary cutoff that unfairly benefits Bossy, considering Gretzky's overall top 10 placements are better. What are their numbers if you combine all their top 10 finishes ? (of which they both have 9)

 

[ScaredStreit]

He can be mentioned as 1 of the greatest but he has zero argument for #1 because he got dominated by Gretzky.

When careers overlapped (79/80-86/87)

Bossy: 451 goals in 679 GP = 0.66 GPG
Gretzky: 543 goals in 632 GP = 0.86 GPG

Gretzky's goal scoring blows everybody away though...even Ovechkin (if we're talking about peak).

Bossy's a good name to discuss because he was clearly the 2nd best goal scorer during Gretzky's prime and peak. So let's examine Bossy if Gretzky never played:

Bossy wins 5 Richards (if the trophy existed then), he'd have 2 already...Gretzky would have beaten him for 2 more, and his linemate beat Bossy out for a 5th. 5 Richards in 9 seasons isn't that much worse than 7 in 13 seasons. If Ovechkin's career only lasted 9 (full) seasons like Bossy's did....he'd have just 4 Richards.

I'm not using raw statistics because of the inflation of goals in the 80s and it's not easy to compare different eras of any sport...but we can compare how far ahead of their peers players are.

To be clear I'm not suggesting Bossy was as good as scoring as Gretzky, he wasn't. I'm not even saying he was as good as Ovechkin...but if we're being honest Ovechkin isn't that far ahead of Bossy, and he certainly isn't at Gretzky's level.

Gretzky compared to his peers is a MUCH larger gap than Ovechkin compared to his. We just covered covered Bossy above in a Gretzkyless league as being a decent comparable to Ovechkin in terms of Richards.

This is the level of goal scoring Ovechkin and nobody else have reached since Gretzky: during his 92 goal Gretzky outscored Bossy by 143%...and Bossy was 2nd in goals. The only way to argue against this is by saying that Gretzky didn't have stiff competition, whereas Ovechkin did...but as stated earlier in the post take Gretzky out of the equation and Bossy is a decent comp for Ovechkin.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Gretzky most certainly belongs in the discussion. But he's not a clear #1. Obviously the era helped his records tremendously, but he still holds the records for goals in a season, playoff goals, most 80+ goal seasons, most 70+, most 60+, tied with Bossy for most 50+, and has the most 40+ goal seasons. He has the fewest games played to reach most goal-scoring milestones (300, 400, 500, etc). He led the league in goals 5 times, and had to compete with some of the best goal scorers ever (Bossy, Lemieux).

I personally think Gretzky is the greatest player of all time, but not the greatest goal scorer. I actually think that goes to either Bobby Hull or Ovechkin at this point. Lemieux is probably equal or slightly ahead of Gretzky as well, but obviously missed too many games. Not sure why Selanne and Jagr are on your list though. Gretzky was clearly superior to either.

Gretzky's era did not help him score ~45% more goals than the person who finished 2nd
I was always a much bigger Lemieux fan and still am to this day. Lemieux COULD have become the GOAT at scoring goals...but just like me tachnically having the potential to marry a supermodel, didn't happen.

It seems like every argument against Gretzky boils down to two statements "it's inflated due to him playing in the 80s", or focusing on other players in the conversation, rather than him. There's really no concrete argument against Gretzky. I feel bad for the younger fans who never saw him play live

 

[Hippasus]

Do you have the data at hand?

Corresponding values to the seasons stated in the post you quoted: 2.031, 1.834, 1.639, 1.633, 1.619, 1.61, 1.54, 2.354, 2.342, 1.95, 1.913, 1.773.

 

[Hippasus]

Why would you stop at top 3 though? Gretzky has two 4th place finishes, a 5th and a 6th. Bossy's next highest finishes are a 5th and a 7th. It seems like an arbitrary cutoff that unfairly benefits Bossy, considering Gretzky's overall top 10 placements are better. What are their numbers if you combine all their top 10 finishes ? (of which they both have 9)

A few seasons ago, I felt Ovechkin might be one of the five or so greatest goal-scorers of all-time and I wanted to confirm or disconfirm my suspicion. I also wanted to objectively adjudicate offensive output from the 80s to the present. To this end I went to the beginning of the NHL and went for top-three placings plus ties. I believe the method to be sufficient toward the stated end. I intend at some point to extend the goals analyis to the present, and to do the same for assists. It probably won't happen for a long time though.

 

[Hippasus]

Gretzky's goal scoring blows everybody away though...even Ovechkin (if we're talking about peak).

Bossy's a good name to discuss because he was clearly the 2nd best goal scorer during Gretzky's prime and peak. So let's examine Bossy if Gretzky never played:

Bossy wins 5 Richards (if the trophy existed then), he'd have 2 already...Gretzky would have beaten him for 2 more, and his linemate beat Bossy out for a 5th. 5 Richards in 9 seasons isn't that much worse than 7 in 13 seasons. If Ovechkin's career only lasted 9 (full) seasons like Bossy's did....he'd have just 4 Richards.

I'm not using raw statistics because of the inflation of goals in the 80s and it's not easy to compare different eras of any sport...but we can compare how far ahead of their peers players are.

To be clear I'm not suggesting Bossy was as good as scoring as Gretzky, he wasn't. I'm not even saying he was as good as Ovechkin...but if we're being honest Ovechkin isn't that far ahead of Bossy, and he certainly isn't at Gretzky's level.

Gretzky compared to his peers is a MUCH larger gap than Ovechkin compared to his. We just covered covered Bossy above in a Gretzkyless league as being a decent comparable to Ovechkin in terms of Richards.

This is the level of goal scoring Ovechkin and nobody else have reached since Gretzky: during his 92 goal Gretzky outscored Bossy by 143%...and Bossy was 2nd in goals. The only way to argue against this is by saying that Gretzky didn't have stiff competition, whereas Ovechkin did...but as stated earlier in the post take Gretzky out of the equation and Bossy is a decent comp for Ovechkin.

Ovechkin actually blows Gretzky and Bossy out of the water at this point in terms of domination against peers during the course of a skater's prime.

 

[libertarian]

Ovechkin does to modern NHL goalies what guys like Bossy and Gretzky did to modern ECHL goalies.

Bull****! OV does not hold a candle to the great scorers of Gretzky and Lemieux. OV is in the Hull (both father and son), Richard. and Exposito category.

The fact that OV is winning this poll is just proof on how clueless most of todays young hockey fans are. They are making a judgement on players they never saw in their prime. OV is a great player but he is not in the Gretzky/Lemieux status.

 

[libertarian]

Ovechkin actually blows Gretzky and Bossy out of the water at this point in terms of domination against peers during the course of a skater's prime.

LOL!

In 1981/82 season Gretzky score 26 more goals then the next top goal scorer and ended up with 92 goals.
In 1982/83 season Gretzky scored 11 more goals then the next top goal scorer and ended up with 71 goals.
In 1983/84 season Gretzky scored 31 more goals then the next top goal scorer and ended up with 87 goals.

If the goalies were so bad in that era how is it no one came close to Gretzky's scoring ability when he was in his prime. This train of thought that the goalies in the 1980's were so bad and that this is the only reason Gretzky scored like he did is wrong. If this was true there would be many other player that scored 70 or 80 goals which did not happen even when there was many great scorers at that time. When OV can beat the next top goal scorer in the league by 20+ goals I'll take you seriously.

 

[Hippasus]

LOL!

In 1981/82 season Gretzky score 26 more goals then the next top goal scorer and ended up with 92 goals.
In 1982/83 season Gretzky scored 11 more goals then the next top goal scorer and ended up with 71 goals.
In 1983/84 season Gretzky scored 31 more goals then the next top goal scorer and ended up with 87 goals.

If the goalies were so bad in that era how is it no one came close to Gretzky's scoring ability when he was in his prime. This train of thought that the goalies in the 1980's were so bad and that this is the only reason Gretzky scored like he did is wrong. If this was true there would be many other player that scored 70 or 80 goals which did not happen even when there was many great scorers at that time. When OV can beat the next top goal scorer in the league by 20+ goals I'll take you seriously.

I made a claim about primes and you are arguing about peaks, where Ovechkin is narrowly behind.

 

[Albatros]

It's Gretzky and everyone who says otherwise is just wrong.

 

[Tweed]

You're about to get hammered with a crap-ton of comments about how Gretzky said everybody else was better than him, and that he was just "humble".