Grabo - Cheer or Boo ?

[Sartorial]

Cheer. My favorite Leafs player since 2 lockouts ago. Sad to see such a good player go

 

[Suntouchable13]

I am mad at him. Because he sucked last season, I have to watch that Bozak character skate around with his stone hands in a Leafs jersey for the next 5 years. Had Grabo played much better last season, I bet Bozak would have been let go.

 

[mr grieves]

Here is the whole Quote that Grabo gave when bought out so that it is not taken out of context ....like you tried to do with only posting part of it.

“I play in the [expletive] Russian KHL, I make lots of [expletive] points and what’s going to happen? He make me [expletive] play on the fourth line and he put me in the playoffs on the fourth line and third line again,” Grabovski told TSN.ca reporter Jonas Siegel. “Yeah, I don’t score goals. I need to work more about that. I know that. But if you feel support from your coach [you'll find success].

I do not know about you but it seems he was putting himself above the team and only equates success with his points total....as is my premise and it seems supported by his own comments!

When the team lets a player go, I think it's probably expected he's going to be thinking of himself and not the team he's no longer part of.

If you wanted to make the case that Grabo was putting himself before the team, you'd need to find some evidence of that from when he was part of the team. So far, you've come up with fanciful interpretations of jersey letters and postures on the bench.

More useful: read some interviews from last season.


Here's one. Grabo addresses his role on the team and expresses his complete disgust at the role Carlyle assigned him, worrying loudly about those all-important individual point totals:

"“We understand at times there’s more of an assignment given to him to play against top players,” Carlyle said. “But in some of the performances, and last night [in an ugly 3-1 loss to the Carolina Hurricanes] specifically, I think our group could be a lot harder to play against.”

“It’s exciting for me playing against the best lines,” Grabovski said of the change. “Sometimes it’s pretty hard. You don’t have any chances sometimes; they have lots of chances against. I look forward to and enjoy it... Of course it’s a challenge. I try and do my best.”

Grabovski was then asked if he takes his heavier defensive role this season as a sign that the Leafs management and coaching staff are happy with his play.

“Yeah, probably that’s right,” he said. “But I don’t know. It’s just the system. But it’s worked. Right now it’s kind of working so I’m happy for my team because we make the plans and we win the games. The whole team has one plan. We need to make playoffs. Everybody’s given a different chance to play.”

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...fs-55-million-checking-centre/article8748765/

Or not.

And here he is actually talking about his offensive production (those all-important individual points totals). And be sure to note the context in which Grabo is talking about his point totals:

"More chances come if we're going to play against different lines, but that's not my role right now," he said, sounding slightly defiant. "It doesn't mean it's my best, what I can do, but that's what the team needs right now."

Before the most recent 5-2 loss in Winnipeg – the first time the Leafs have gone three straight without a win this season – Carlyle hinted at the need for more offence from his two Russian checkers, noting a "bit of leeway" in respect to their role as two-thirds of a shutdown unit, before adding that "we'd like to see them provide more offence also."

"Yeah, I agree," said Grabovski, "but I don't know how to do that."

source: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=418120

So, to be clear, Grabo talks about his production AFTER Carlyle complains to the media that he's not scoring enough while playing 15 min/ night with Jay McClement. That is, AFTER throwing a player under the bus for not doing what he isn't in a position to do, Grabo is asked about it. And note also that Grabo says he's happy to be helping the team win, even if it means being used in a role that he's never been in.

So, this whole pouting thing is largely invented by you. You took the fact of an interview given after a buyout, ignored that rather important bit of context, and mapped it back on to the season. It's an interpretation that's a product of your imagination, based in nothing that actually happened in the world.

Was Kadri "pouting" under Ron Wilson? Was it a slight against the organization? Did it similarly prove the player a terrible teammate? Because once we clear this up we can get to all that's actually at the root of your elaborate exegeses of bench-sitting postures, interpretations of the letters and stars, divining of the leaves and the cards, etc.: you're just a homer shaping objective reality to what makes you feel good about your team. And that's sweet, really.

 

[diceman934]

When the team lets a player go, I think it's probably expected he's going to be thinking of himself and not the team he's no longer part of.

If you wanted to make the case that Grabo was putting himself before the team, you'd need to find some evidence of that from when he was part of the team. So far, you've come up with fanciful interpretations of jersey letters and postures on the bench.

More useful: read some interviews from last season.


Here's one. Grabo addresses his role on the team and expresses his complete disgust at the role Carlyle assigned him, worrying loudly about those all-important individual point totals:

"“We understand at times there’s more of an assignment given to him to play against top players,†Carlyle said. “But in some of the performances, and last night [in an ugly 3-1 loss to the Carolina Hurricanes] specifically, I think our group could be a lot harder to play against.â€

“It’s exciting for me playing against the best lines,†Grabovski said of the change. “Sometimes it’s pretty hard. You don’t have any chances sometimes; they have lots of chances against. I look forward to and enjoy it... Of course it’s a challenge. I try and do my best.â€

Grabovski was then asked if he takes his heavier defensive role this season as a sign that the Leafs management and coaching staff are happy with his play.

“Yeah, probably that’s right,†he said. “But I don’t know. It’s just the system. But it’s worked. Right now it’s kind of working so I’m happy for my team because we make the plans and we win the games. The whole team has one plan. We need to make playoffs. Everybody’s given a different chance to play.â€

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...fs-55-million-checking-centre/article8748765/

Or not.

And here he is actually talking about his offensive production (those all-important individual points totals). And be sure to note the context in which Grabo is talking about his point totals:

"More chances come if we're going to play against different lines, but that's not my role right now," he said, sounding slightly defiant. "It doesn't mean it's my best, what I can do, but that's what the team needs right now."

Before the most recent 5-2 loss in Winnipeg – the first time the Leafs have gone three straight without a win this season – Carlyle hinted at the need for more offence from his two Russian checkers, noting a "bit of leeway" in respect to their role as two-thirds of a shutdown unit, before adding that "we'd like to see them provide more offence also."

"Yeah, I agree," said Grabovski, "but I don't know how to do that."

source: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=418120

So, to be clear, Grabo talks about his production AFTER Carlyle complains to the media that he's not scoring enough while playing 15 min/ night with Jay McClement. That is, AFTER throwing a player under the bus for not doing what he isn't in a position to do, Grabo is asked about it. And note also that Grabo says he's happy to be helping the team win, even if it means being used in a role that he's never been in.

So, this whole pouting thing is largely invented by you. You took the fact of an interview given after a buyout, ignored that rather important bit of context, and mapped it back on to the season. It's an interpretation that's a product of your imagination, based in nothing that actually happened in the world.

Was Kadri "pouting" under Ron Wilson? Was it a slight against the organization? Did it similarly prove the player a terrible teammate? Because once we clear this up we can get to all that's actually at the root of your elaborate exegeses of bench-sitting postures, interpretations of the letters and stars, divining of the leaves and the cards, etc.: you're just a homer shaping objective reality to what makes you feel good about your team. And that's sweet, really.

We are talking about Grabo and not Kadri....as that is a different matter.

He did not like the role he was given as seen by his rant that you and other dismissed.....well I did not dismiss it as he spoke his true feelings then..as he no longer had a vested interest in the team.


"More chances come if we're going to play against different lines, but that's not my role right now," he said, sounding slightly defiant. "It doesn't mean it's my best, what I can do, but that's what the team needs right now." Does this sound like a happy and content player? Or does it sound more like I suggested a person who values himself by his own personal stats and not that of the team?


I will ignore the last paragraph of your post as I know the direction you are going with it.....and I'm not interested!

 

[mr grieves]

We are talking about Grabo and not Kadri....as that is a different matter.

He did not like the role he was given as seen by his rant that you and other dismissed.....well I did not dismiss it as he spoke his true feelings then..as he no longer had a vested interest in the team.

I don't know what you mean by "vested interest." Guessing you're trying to say the feelings he actually expressed all last season were somehow not his "true" ones, but -- again -- there's nothing to suggest that. Only that once he was no longer part of the team, he thought about his individual role and production -- which is probably wise, if you're a UFA looking for a contract.

"More chances come if we're going to play against different lines, but that's not my role right now," he said, sounding slightly defiant. "It doesn't mean it's my best, what I can do, but that's what the team needs right now." Does this sound like a happy and content player? Or does it sound more like I suggested a person who values himself by his own personal stats and not that of the team?

Again, try to keep the words in their proper context. The player is "defiant" in an interview where his lack of offensive production is being questioned by the media -- which was taking a cue from the coach. The point is the same: there's no evidence that the player was independently unhappy about his role, its effect on his production, or whatever, only that he's not contented / defiant when "his own personal stats" are being criticized by his coach/ the media. Before that, he's all "we have a plan, I play this role in it, we're winning games, making the playoffs, great." Which is more or less the very picture of a player who's happy to be useful to his team in whatever role he's assigned as long as the team's winning -- i.e. not a guy obsessing over his point totals.

I will ignore the last paragraph of your post as I know the direction you are going with it.....and I'm not interested!

Yes, having to balance the moral judgments about Grabo's "selfishness" with the pass you're giving Kadri for "worse" behavior would be very hard for you to compute. So, I'll give you a pass.

 

[diceman934]

I don't know what you mean by "vested interest." Guessing you're trying to say the feelings he actually expressed all last season were somehow not his "true" ones, but -- again -- there's nothing to suggest that. Only that once he was no longer part of the team, he thought about his individual role and production -- which is probably wise, if you're a UFA looking for a contract.




Again, try to keep the words in their proper context. The player is "defiant" in an interview where his lack of offensive production is being questioned by the media -- which was taking a cue from the coach. The point is the same: there's no evidence that the player was independently unhappy about his role, its effect on his production, or whatever, only that he's not contented / defiant when "his own personal stats" are being criticized by his coach/ the media. Before that, he's all "we have a plan, I play this role in it, we're winning games, making the playoffs, great." Which is more or less the very picture of a player who's happy to be useful to his team in whatever role he's assigned as long as the team's winning -- i.e. not a guy obsessing over his point totals.




Yes, having to balance the moral judgments about Grabo's "selfishness" with the pass you're giving Kadri for "worse" behavior would be very hard for you to compute. So, I'll give you a pass.

Vested interest.....as he is no longer part of the team he is free to speak his mind which he did.....much more validity to his rant after he was no longer a member of the leafs then the sound bites when he was.

I'm not giving Kadri a pass at all....he has done nothing to warrant a assessment of his behaviour morally or otherwise.

I do not need a pass from you at all.

As for my comment about ignoring your last paragraph....here is what I'm referring to....you failed to read the whole discussing and jump in with both feet ....And that's sweet, really!

Because once we clear this up we can get to all that's actually at the root of your elaborate exegeses of bench-sitting postures, interpretations of the letters and stars, divining of the leaves and the cards, etc.: you're just a homer shaping objective reality to what makes you feel good about your team. And that's sweet, really.

 

[mr grieves]

As for my comment about ignoring your last paragraph....here is what I'm referring to....you failed to read the whole discussing and jump in with both feet ....And that's sweet, really!

Because once we clear this up we can get to all that's actually at the root of your elaborate exegeses of bench-sitting postures, interpretations of the letters and stars, divining of the leaves and the cards, etc.: you're just a homer shaping objective reality to what makes you feel good about your team. And that's sweet, really.

I'm not sure how my jumping in late failed to acknowledge anything relevant to that last paragraph's assertion: you're a homer. On another thread you reveal that you're under the impression that 50 other centers isn the league wouldn't be clear improvements on Tyler Bozak. You don't look stats of any sort -- except those of his elite linemates and the ice-time Randy Carlyle gives -- in asserting that he's an acceptable 1C. You dismiss any argument to the contrary with "well, I trust the Leafs pro scouting staff" and some teams out there who didn't give him a $4.2m x 5yr deal apparently were interested. That says plenty about your ability to form opinions separate from the moves MLSE makes.

And it is sweet. Because you think a slight improvement on Matt Stajan is what the Leafs need at center to be competitive.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

Boo!

 

[Damisoph]

The Bozak hate and Grabo love combined is just too much to take.

 

[diceman934]

I'm not sure how my jumping in late failed to acknowledge anything relevant to that last paragraph's assertion: you're a homer. On another thread you reveal that you're under the impression that 50 other centers isn the league wouldn't be clear improvements on Tyler Bozak. You don't look stats of any sort -- except those of his elite linemates and the ice-time Randy Carlyle gives -- in asserting that he's an acceptable 1C. You dismiss any argument to the contrary with "well, I trust the Leafs pro scouting staff" and some teams out there who didn't give him a $4.2m x 5yr deal apparently were interested. That says plenty about your ability to form opinions separate from the moves MLSE makes.

And it is sweet. Because you think a slight improvement on Matt Stajan is what the Leafs need at center to be competitive.

You failed to read the thread and I'm a homer.....
please provide a link from any of my posts that said I believe Bozak is a number one center....I have never said that he was, I have said that he is paid as a number 2 which is what I think he is.

All of this coming from a person who believes that Kadri is behaving worse then Grabo towards the Leafs....leaves me with many questions.
You have no idea what you are talking about as is painfully obvious....either debate with me using facts or a formed opinion or not, either way I'm happy.

 

[CreeksideStrangler]

I will clap. For a late draft pick he really made a name for himself as a highly skilled centre. Haven't had a 2c so productive in a long time. Made everybody he played with better (except kessel). Victim of a hateon fom the coach and a lowered cap. We will regret this if kessel doesn't resign

 

[CreeksideStrangler]

You failed to read the thread and I'm a homer.....
please provide a link from any of my posts that said I believe Bozak is a number one center....I have never said that he was, I have said that he is paid as a number 2 which is what I think he is.

All of this coming from a person who believes that Kadri is behaving worse then Grabo towards the Leafs....leaves me with many questions.
You have no idea what you are talking about as is painfully obvious....either debate with me using facts or a formed opinion or not, either way I'm happy.

Grabo never pouted while being assigned a 3rd line role. He could've handled his EXIT comments better, but your assertion that he "POUTED" is completely invalid. Next season you can see how much better Grabo is than Bozak

 

[ACC1224]

Grabo never pouted while being assigned a 3rd line role. He could've handled his EXIT comments better, but your assertion that he "POUTED" is completely invalid. Next season you can see how much better Grabo is than Bozak

There is a difference between better and better fit.

 

[diceman934]

Grabo never pouted while being assigned a 3rd line role. He could've handled his EXIT comments better, but your assertion that he "POUTED" is completely invalid. Next season you can see how much better Grabo is than Bozak

Go back and read the thread and then tell me what my assertion is or was....I said he was selfish.

Grabo lost his job to Kadri and not Bozak.....so do I think Kadri is better than Grabo, yes you are dam right I do.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

cheer all the way until further notice

if he does something against the leafs, then the story may change

i hope he gets 80+ points

Where? In the KHL or in the AHL?

 

[Duke Silver]

Nice to come back after an out-of-town weekend vacation to see someone else do my work for me. Well done, mr grieves.

Comments from Burke and JVR on Grabovski from an interview which appears today in the Washington Post:

Burke:

“We exchanged emails and I told him what I thought,” former Maple Leafs general manager Brian Burke said Monday at KCI, where he is attending the U.S. Olympic orientation camp as USA Hockey’s director of player personnel. “I think Mikhail Grabovski is just a class act, he’s a warrior on the ice, he’s a gym rat off the ice. His preparation is unbelievable, he’s very serious about being a good hockey player and he was a joy while I had him in Toronto. He was a joy to have on the team.”

JVR:

“I loved having him in the room,” van Riemsdyk said. “On the ice I always thought he was a good player, I liked having him on my line and I had some good chemistry with him and I think he’ll fit in great here with all the great offensive players [the Capitals] have.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-burke-mikhail-grabovski-is-just-a-class-act/

Certainly sounds like a selfish, me-first guy.

 

[mr grieves]

There is a difference between better and better fit.

It's the really good teams that find worse players better fits.

Processed cheese is a 'better fit' in Big Mac, but that's some pretty faint praise, don't you think?

 

[Lightsol]

i hope he gets 80+ points

He won't. And that goes DOUBLE if they do what I suspect they're thinking and shove him into the role recently opened by Mike Ribeiro. Ribeiro and Grabo couldn't be more different if they tried.

 

[Mimico]

He won't. And that goes DOUBLE if they do what I suspect they're thinking and shove him into the role recently opened by Mike Ribeiro. Ribeiro and Grabo couldn't be more different if they tried.

This is very true. Grabovski possesses a very different skillset offensively in comparison to Ribeiro. Trying to replace a playmaking center with one who opts to shoot first shouldn't bring about ideal results. Grabovski just doesn't have the offensive acumen and vision to come close to putting up 80 points.

 

[Ari91]

Did I miss the year Grabovski put the team on his back and win the Cup? Because with the way some people are talking in here, you'd think the guy has been some saviour for the Leafs organization and was wronged by them to the point that it should be considered criminal.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Nice to come back after an out-of-town weekend vacation to see someone else do my work for me. Well done, mr grieves.

Comments from Burke and JVR on Grabovski from an interview which appears today in the Washington Post:

Burke:



JVR:



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-burke-mikhail-grabovski-is-just-a-class-act/

Certainly sounds like a selfish, me-first guy.

It is obvious that most don't know what they're talking about. His shots for statistics didn't seem that high last season. It was actually quite similar to Kulemin and yet no one calls him a puck hog. Interestingly, Grabovski was able to draw possession on that line better than everyone else and thus was planted in the middle.

I think if Grabovski was playing with JVR for the entire season, his performance would've been much better. His playing style actually makes others around him better. He is undersized, but can create space and is a good finisher. In addition, I'd say his puck distribution ability is pretty underrated as well.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Did I miss the year Grabovski put the team on his back and win the Cup? Because with the way some people are talking in here, you'd think the guy has been some saviour for the Leafs organization and was wronged by them to the point that it should be considered criminal.

He was poorly utilised. Much like Gardiner was. It's not that uncommon. Lupul was once terribly utilised by Carlyle in Anaheim as well.

 

[Ari91]

He was poorly utilised. Much like Gardiner was. It's not that uncommon. Lupul was once terribly utilised by Carlyle in Anaheim as well.

And this justifies glorifying the man as though he has achieved great things for the organization?

Grabo struggled at the very start. The coach doesn't owe it to him to give him opportunities to play catch up on the season when it's wins and losses on the line. Grabo was stuck in a role he wasn't suited for all because he didn't play well enough to knock two other centres from their spots. Plain and simple. There simply wasn't enough time in the season to 'ride it out' with struggling players because the season was a sprint. You can dress it up as much as you want but when two other lines can function and produce reliably and are carrying your team through games, you don't have to change it all up in hopes of sparking ONE player's game. That's not how it should work.

Gardiner wasn't poorly utilized. If you think Gardiner was playing well and scratched from the line up for the hell of it, then we must have been watching two different games. His injury slowed him down all year and while he returned and had some good games, he was struggling with bringing the same kind of effort to every game. When he got the opportunity to play again, it certainly didn't seem like the pressbox hurt his game, did it? In fact, there was a fire lit under his ass by the time he got his next opportunity. Shining in the opportunities given to you and doing so in practices as well are how players get their coaches attention. Grabo didn't do enough. You people are being coddlers. It's not up to the coach to hand out opportunities. It's up to the players to earn them.

As for Lupul, he came back from injury and was not up to par. Of course he's not going to climb the depth charts out of the gate in that kind of situation. Carlyle utilized Lupul as he was always utilized in his career - as a right winger. And as a right winger, Lupul wasn't playing well enough to force Carlyle to demote another right winger. That's precisely why Lupul asked to be switched to the left. When you have left wingers on your roster, not utilizing a right winger on the left wing is not poorly utilizing the player. What that demonstrates was a stubborness by the coach to not make such a drastic change. Considering that the Ducks were a playoff team that year, is it really so hard for people to understand that a coach may not have wanted to upset the dynamic of his team for the sake of one player? I don't think it's that unfathomable in the least. And to assume that Lupul could have strived on the left wing in Anaheim as he did in Toronto is speculation at best. Lupul has said he has never played with a player as skilled as Kessel and I believe that Kessel had assists on a significant portion of Lupul's goals when they played together. Lupul has also said since his injury and being fully healthy and getting a fresh start in Toronto, he has taken his fitness and training far more seriously. He is more dedicated and how can we say that that hasn't also had a huge impact on the way he's played in Toronto versus everywhere else?

Don't confuse facts with conjecture.

 

[pcruz]

He was poorly utilised. Much like Gardiner was. It's not that uncommon. Lupul was once terribly utilised by Carlyle in Anaheim as well.

How many forwards per team? 12-14
How many teams in the league? 30
How many players in the first line? 3

So, a little math:

There are between 360 - 420 forwards in the league on any given night.
There are a total of 90 first line spots available.
Therefore 75% - 78.6% of all forwards are made to play in roles which do not necessarily maximize their offensive production.

I liked Grabovsky as a player, particularly his speed and his ability to end plays with an offensive zone face-off. For that, I was grateful. However, he did not stay in Toronto long enough to have a real impact, he was not a captain or alternate captain, he was never even close to being the team's best offensive player and he was never even close to being the team's best defensive player, not even best defensive forward.

I don't see any reason to cheer for someone who was here for a few seasons, left on terrible terms after the first of a 5 year deal which sees him make, essentially, 14.7 million over the next 8 years plus whatever contract he signs in the meantime.

It was a business decision and he took it personally. Normally, I'd be more understanding, but the compensation really makes it hard. Nevertheless, he is not a player I would boo based on events that have happened as of today. It's not as if he quit on the team for half a season and magically doubled in production once he was moved.

 

[yakfish]

I loved watching Grabo. No reason to boo him. he was all heart and left it all on the ice. he didn't put up much in terms of numbers last season but I will still miss seeing him on the ice. Peope hated him based solely on his contract.