Confirmed with Link: Going Full Rutherford (or: He Traded Elmer for The Reverend.)

[BrunoPuntzJones]

I dunno. Despite IcedCapp's assurances that nothing off ice is at play here. Something has to be. Thing is yes we have some of the same people in the org now in assistant GM roles. But Guerin was arguing FOR Despres last year, and was pissed when he got sent down.

Maybe there are locker room issues, maybe he's a raging alcoholic or sniff's airplane glue. But on a pure potential, and how good he plays right now.
Comparing cost, talent, and on ice play. We clearly lost this trade.

So either JR and staff know nothing at all about hockey, or something else played into this.

Even the talking heads on trade center labelled this the most baffling trade of the day. None of them thought it was a good trade for Pittsburgh.

The only media types that think it's ok all work for the Penguins (aka the trib).

This is kind of dangerous thinking...indirectly casting aspersions on a player's character or behavior is an awfully weird way of defending him on ice.

It really is as simple as the Penguins not having the patience to develop or fully trust young players. Plus the skewed values that characterize the way establishment hockey people tend to evaluate talent (almost every organization, GM, and coach favors vets).

It might not be as dramatic as someone having a personal/emotional beef with Despres, but he was never part of the front office's vision for the future.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Shero let his scouts pick the players in most cases. He said that many times.

"Scouts" within his trust to the tune of PMD mentality.

He still had the final word on who was picked.

There was no involvement of other upper management on those decisions. Even if they opposed them. The only people who could still challenge him was ownership where he most likely went along with it, grudgingly. (Hossa deal)

Rutherford is very much not 100% in control this time.

Does it not make sense now that Botterill wanted more control.

We are where we are because of Ray Shero.

But now we are where we are because of a combination of a management team fixing his screw ups.

And "that's just the way it works." <---Edit: corrected.

I laughed for a full ten minutes after he said that. No lie. I walked out side for a cigarette laughing uncontrollably. Just his looking at them as he said it after apologizing for being late.

I couldn't like this guy more right now.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think people need to make up their minds on this one. When JR traded for Perron no one was giving Botterill et. al. any credit for it.

I'm a little skeptical that you would be assuaged if, for some reason, everyone praised the entire chain of command when a good trade goes down. More likely you'd ask why everyone felt the need to thank "JR, Botterill, Fitzy, Guerin, the pro scouting department, my good friend Morehouse, Mario, Burkle and of course, the Man Upstairs... Pascal Dupuis."

I think it's fair to say, "nice one, JR" and understand that that's a catch-all phrase.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Im sure they have input but there is only one guy with his hand on the trigger. That's just how it has to be.

As far as mgmt. being the same, well they sure are not acting the same.

The players the drafted are opposite of the usual Shero mold. (Euro forward in 1st, big forwards and limited D)
The emphasized bring in bottom six depth that is actually good at hockey. (Downie, Spaling, Winnik and Comeau instead of Glass, Pyatt and Adams etc)
The have emphasized bringing in wingers and playoff style wingers to boot. (Perron & Horny while getting rid of Neal)

Was the Despres deal a step back in the wrong direction yeah, yeah it was. But it has been the ONLY move that looks like a holdover from the Shero regime.

Maybe the drafting was just a reaction to the way Shero drafted and they felt they had to draft a certain way to compensate, but this is all inconclusive anyways. There are a lot of new faces, and there are definitely some old ones still there as well. To say that a two player deal signifies or confirms anything just isn't accurate I don't think. As for additional 'evidence', you can make the "Beau doesn't get enough time on the top lines!!!" type arguments on a lot of teams. Proves nothing. You can also make an argument why those statements are bogus.

Saying there is some toxic culture throughout the organization that in no way went away when they changed GMs and an entire coaching staff is virtually impossible to prove or even formulate a concrete argument, especially when we're not even done with one freakin' season.

 

[drpepper]

I wonder if as a rookie head coach in the NHL, Johnston ever feels ridiculous for saying something like:



If experience is the key, then what does that say about him?

 

[SUBdrewgANS]

I'm still baffled by this move, but I'll save my judgement until we actually see them play.

Whats the D group look like now?
Martin Letang
Ehrhoff Lovejoy/Cole
Scuderi Cole/Lovejoy
Harrington

Send Pouliot down so he can actually play.

 

[Saints11]

People, I get it if many of you are upset because you view the Despres trade as a symptomatic problem within the organization. If you view the Pens as a team that does not develop it's own talent. If you question how they handle the injection of youth into the line-up. Those are legitimate objections. I do have two objections to all of this.......

1. Don't hold up Detriot as the standard for player development and youth injection. Babcock is worse than us in using his youth. He will play them only when forced and if he can acquire a vet to replace youth, he will do it 100% of the time. Seriously, he just traded for Eric Cole and Marek Zidlicky! Really?
Lovejoy is 31 and very capable for this teams style, just think of the outrage if Despres was moved for Marek Zidlicky!

2. Don't hold Simon Despres as the standard for player development, he is not that good. All 4 of the younger defensemen are better in their role as defenseman than he is or will be. He was never going to be more than a 5/6 here, primarily because the others fit the 1, 2, 3, & 4 roles better. Sure he threw body checks, all defensemen do. But he hits, and is physical, Ok, I get it. However, try being in position, try defending, skate and pass north and south and not east and west. Don't waste your youth arguements on Despres. Physical guys, MacNeill and Roupp are waiting in the wings. "Old Time Hockey, Wren Blair, Toe Blake!"

Wow, what would this be doing if Despres had been sent to Jersey for Jagr.......talk about Board and fan conflict!

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I'm a little skeptical that you would be assuaged if, for some reason, everyone praised the entire chain of command when a good trade goes down. More likely you'd ask why everyone felt the need to thank "JR, Botterill, Fitzy, Guerin, the pro scouting department, my good friend Morehouse, Mario, Burkle and of course, the Man Upstairs... Pascal Dupuis."

I think it's fair to say, "nice one, JR" and understand that that's a catch-all phrase.

Of course, but it's just as hard to believe that Botterill, Guerin and those guys were even though of for a second when Perron came here.

 

[IcedCapp]

I dunno. Despite IcedCapp's assurances that nothing off ice is at play here. Something has to be. Thing is yes we have some of the same people in the org now in assistant GM roles. But Guerin was arguing FOR Despres last year, and was pissed when he got sent down.

Maybe there are locker room issues, maybe he's a raging alcoholic or sniff's airplane glue. But on a pure potential, and how good he plays right now.
Comparing cost, talent, and on ice play. We clearly lost this trade.

So either JR and staff know nothing at all about hockey, or something else played into this.

Even the talking heads on trade center labelled this the most baffling trade of the day. None of them thought it was a good trade for Pittsburgh.

The only media types that think it's ok all work for the Penguins (aka the trib).

You're welcome to believe what you want. I can't nor should I try to force anything on you. All I can tell you is what I know, and I think I've done at least enough to prove I know *something*.

That said, you should take notice of this: the Pens, for all of the PR work, have tried to cast aspersions on Despres in different ways, but never his off-ice stuff (unlike what they did with Neal).

If they weren't even willing to suggest it through the media, i think we can safely assume there's not much there. (Beyond the fact that I know there wasn't much there)

 

[Sotty]

Funny how the original news got deleted as well as all the comments, which were mostly negative. The new Lovejoy article doesn't even mention that they traded Despres for Lovejoy.

 

[drpepper]

I'm still baffled by this move, but I'll save my judgement until we actually see them play.

Whats the D group look like now?
Martin Letang
Ehrhoff Lovejoy/Cole
Scuderi Cole/Lovejoy
Harrington

Send Pouliot down so he can actually play.

The implication from Pittsburgh media was that Cole is a 6/7 D on the Pens.

The only reason he'd be playing with Ehrhoff is because he can't play with Scuderi.

If they are not playing the 7th D, it's hard to see the young players in the press box; however given the road trip I guess one of them should be up. I would prefer the team get a better sense of Dumoulin as an NHL player as he will not be waiver exempt next year.

 

[IcedCapp]

People, I get it if many of you are upset because you view the Despres trade as a symptomatic problem within the organization. If you view the Pens as a team that does not develop it's own talent. If you question how they handle the injection of youth into the line-up. Those are legitimate objections. I do have two objections to all of this.......

1. Don't hold up Detriot as the standard for player development and youth injection. Babcock is worse than us in using his youth. He will play them only when forced and if he can acquire a vet to replace youth, he will do it 100% of the time. Seriously, he just traded for Eric Cole and Marek Zidlicky! Really?
Lovejoy is 31 and very capable for this teams style, just think of the outrage if Despres was moved for Marek Zidlicky!

2. Don't hold Simon Despres as the standard for player development, he is not that good. All 4 of the younger defensemen are better in their role as defenseman than he is or will be. He was never going to be more than a 5/6 here, primarily because the others fit the 1, 2, 3, & 4 roles better. Sure he threw body checks, all defensemen do. But he hits, and is physical, Ok, I get it. However, try being in position, try defending, skate and pass north and south and not east and west. Don't waste your youth arguements on Despres. Physical guys, MacNeill and Roupp are waiting in the wings. "Old Time Hockey, Wren Blair, Toe Blake!"

Wow, what would this be doing if Despres had been sent to Jersey for Jagr.......talk about Board and fan conflict!

Bolded is not only an opinion, but one I view as a really bad one.

You're welcome to think what you want of Despres, but I would question the process you took to get there. He's better than at least 2 of the 4, and I would argue on par with #2, and, given his unique skillsets... well...

But, I do appreciate that the notion that he's bad, or struggling, or faltering has been so beat into people's heads that it's truth for some.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Of course, but it's just as hard to believe that Botterill, Guerin and those guys were even though of for a second when Perron came here.

I was only pointing out that this team's FO is not as straight forward as some seem to assume. And that isn't just me spitballing. This trade is very good evidence of that. The AGMs sorta went a little off the reservation, it sounds like. I suspect JR had very little to do with it aside from being woken up from his late afternoon nap to give the woozy thumbs-up.

I've given credit where it has been due, all year. I loved the Perron deal even though a lot of people were blasting the concept of shuffling off another first rounder. Even though it was expensive, I also thought the Winnik deal was a very savvy move heading down the stretch.

 

[Black Label]

Funny how the original news got deleted as well as all the comments, which were mostly negative. The new Lovejoy article doesn't even mention that they traded Despres for Lovejoy.

Morehouse is actually just a persona of Putin.

 

[MrBurghundy]

As if it's even a major revelation that a player of his experience is struggling at this point in the season. It's like they have never saw a young player develop before. Oh wait they haven't because they have no patience to see it.

 

[strandvag]

1. Don't hold up Detriot as the standard for player development and youth injection. Babcock is worse than us in using his youth. He will play them only when forced and if he can acquire a vet to replace youth, he will do it 100% of the time. Seriously, he just traded for Eric Cole and Marek Zidlicky! Really?
Lovejoy is 31 and very capable for this teams style, just think of the outrage if Despres was moved for Marek Zidlicky!

However, Detroits top 7 scorers are "homegrown" talent and most of them weren't drafted in the first round. I wish we had nearly as good development.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I was only pointing out that this team's FO is not as straight forward as some seem to assume. And that isn't just me spitballing. This trade is very good evidence of that. The AGMs sorta went a little off the reservation, it sounds like. I suspect JR had very little to do with it aside from being woken up from his late afternoon nap to give the woozy thumbs-up.

I've given credit where it has been due, all year. I loved the Perron deal even though a lot of people were blasting the concept of shuffling off another first rounder. Even though it was expensive, I also thought the Winnik deal was a very savvy move heading down the stretch.

I hope this is a joke, its very obvious that the GM was involved in this negotiation, now maybe the asst Gm were pushing hard for it to him or maybe it was their idea even but to think that the asst Gm went behind JR and negotiated a deal and looked for consent later is ridiculous.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

"Scouts" within his trust to the tune of PMD mentality.

He still had the final word on who was picked.

There was no involvement of other upper management on those decisions. Even if they opposed them. The only people who could still challenge him was ownership where he most likely went along with it, grudgingly. (Hossa deal)

Rutherford is very much not 100% in control this time.

Does it not make sense now that Botterill wanted more control.

We are where we are because of Ray Shero.

But now we are where we are because of a combination of a management team fixing his screw ups.

And "that's just the way it is."

I laughed for a full ten minutes after he said that. No lie. I walked out side for a cigarette laughing uncontrollably. Just his looking at them as he said it after apologizing for being late.

I couldn't like this guy more right now.

Shero and Heinbuck talked about their process many times. Fitzgerald also discussed the PMD initiative on XM a couple of years back. They, as a group, reached a concensious they were "good at forward" and wanted to focus on the blueline more prominently.

The scouts and Shero came to a mutual agreement on the first pick. Every round thereafter, Shero allowed his scouts to make the concensious on the pick.

Anyone trying to point the finger at Shero as the lone gunman in this mess, is being quite unfair and disengenuious to the man. Every GM trusts their scouts, or those scouts wouldn't be working for him. Yes, he had the final say on the picks, but he used the input from his scouts to make those decisions.

Shero paid the price for his failings, but most people dont understand that a majority of these same scouts are still with this org.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I hope this is a joke, its very obvious that the GM was involved in this negotiation, now maybe the asst Gm were pushing hard for it to him or maybe it was their idea even but to think that the asst Gm went behind JR and negotiated a deal and looked for consent later is ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? Do you not think they have any degree of latitude? I'm not saying they were sneaking around behind his back, rubbing their hands together wickedly and cracking Snidely Whiplash-like evil grins toward the camera every once in a while for effect. I'm just saying that it sounds to me, based on what we've been told on how they've structured the team, that these guys did most of the heavy lifting on this one and simply made sure to run it past everyone before sending it through.

Rutherford is a caretaker for this franchise for a couple of seasons. I'm not saying he isn't putting whatever he has left into it. I'm not saying he doesn't have some good ideas. But this guy was just about to retire. He is understandably not going to complain too much when the rest of his "team" wants to carry the load.

 

[IcedCapp]

As if it's even a major revelation that a player of his experience is struggling at this point in the season. It's like they have never saw a young player develop before. Oh wait they haven't because they have no patience to see it.

how much was he struggling? I mean, I'm not saying his level of play now is what it was in December when he was leading the blue line, but... he made some bad plays/decisions.

I have theories, but the question everyone should be asking themselves is, 'why were Despres and Scuderi the only two dmen to never get a rest down the stretch' (every other player was either a scratch or out with an injury at some point).

If you thought Despres was struggling and you were at all interested in keeping him around, why would you never have him sit for a day or two?

The answer here is very easy.

 

[Shaftception]

Even the talking heads on trade center labelled this the most baffling trade of the day. None of them thought it was a good trade for Pittsburgh.

The only media types that think it's ok all work for the Penguins (aka the trib).

Also the quotes coming out of anaheim in that despres has been targeted as a player of interest for some time by their gm, and had asked about him previously, but this time it was pitt that offered him and the gm obviously obliged. I can't find the quotes off hand but I read them in one of the past pages here.

Why are people twisting logic that there must be something wrong with him for two different (which isn't even true) management teams to have soured on him when another gm of the current top team in the west is so highly interested in him?

 

[Tender Rip]

It is cute how amidst the anger over the Despres trade, a significant number of those who completely crapped on Lovejoy and celebrated the meager return we got for him, are now talking about how he is a new and improved player.

Bah! He is the same player, only playing consistently in a system that suits him and with a much superior partner than anything he had as a Pen. What is also true is that he is still a decent enough player. He was back then as well, just had his confidence shut as time went by and he was usurped by Deryk Engelland and Mark Eaton.

Now, imagine if Despres played with someone at the level of Cam Fowler.... and wasn't always the first to have his time cut for nonsense. You need only go look at the games where he got a few shifts with Letang and how much they owned.


Despres is better than Lovejoy right now. IMO not by a little bit. Will only get much worse down the line.

It is enough to make one insane. If only we had stopped at the Bortuzzo deal.... would have been a stellar campaign this season.

 

[MrBurghundy]

how much was he struggling? I mean, I'm not saying his level of play now is what it was in December when he was leading the blue line, but... he made some bad plays/decisions.

I have theories, but the question everyone should be asking themselves is, 'why were Despres and Scuderi the only two dmen to never get a rest down the stretch' (every other player was either a scratch or out with an injury at some point).

If you thought Despres was struggling and you were at all interested in keeping him around, why would you never have him sit for a day or two?

The answer here is very easy.

I don't really think he was struggling as much as they make it out to seem, but if you subscribe to that theory then how can you expect this team to ever develop any young player? They have zero patience for the ups and downs that come with a 100% normal developmental curve.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Why is it ridiculous? Do you not think they have any degree of latitude? I'm not saying they were sneaking around behind his back, rubbing their hands together wickedly and cracking Snidely Whiplash-like evil grins toward the camera every once in a while for effect. I'm just saying that it sounds to me, based on what we've been told on how they've structured the team, that these guys did most of the heavy lifting on this one and simply made sure to run it past everyone before sending it through.

Rutherford is a caretaker for this franchise for a couple of seasons. I'm not saying he isn't putting whatever he has left into it. I'm not saying he doesn't have some good ideas. But this guy was just about to retire. He is understandably not going to complain too much when the rest of his "team" wants to carry the load.

1. If they did any negotiation it is because they were told to. It was certainly not on their own accord.
2. What it ACTUALLY sounds like is that they were very much in favor of bringing Lovejoy in once they knew he was available and the GM took their input on both Lovejoy and Despres into consideration and made the deal happen.

Anything else is pure nonsense, he was brought here to help this team win the Stanley Cup and to bring the GM in waiting along slowly. And that appears to be exactly what he is doing.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

You can call it pure nonsense as much as you want. But you are guessing more than I am guessing. Or at the very least, just as much. No reason to get all bent out of shape over it.

You seem to think that JR is the be-all end all guy in this FO, similar to Shero. I disagree. That's where we'll have to leave it.