GOAT goalscorer?

[Sentinel]

Why?

The highest goalscoring peak of them all, by some metrics.

 

[Thenameless]

What's the argument for Lemieux being better than Bossy?

First off, watching. I'm not trying to be facetious here.

Bossy was a great trigger man, but Lemieux could do the same. Beyond both having deadly one timers, Lemieux had more ways of beating a defenseman and/or goalie.

Reading into the stats, yes, Bossy might have the highest career goals per game average (with Lemieux second), but we all know where this comes from. A lot of it us due to a shortened career which means his career numbers essentially mirror his prime numbers. In the case of guys like Bobby Hull, Gretzky, and Lemieux allowances need to be made for the effects of aging. Which brings me to my next point. While we all know that Gretzky is the greatest scorer of all time, when it comes to just goal scoring, we can also see that Lemieux aged better than he did. We'll never know about Bossy's goal scoring prowess at an advanced age, but we can certainly see how good Lemeiux was.

Random Trivia: The five goals five different ways can be attributed to just one lucky day, yes, put in order to pull it off one still has to be supremely talented. I read somewhere that Lemieux went 7-for-7 on his first 7 penalty shot attempts (a contest that the goalie wins well over half the time). I've been able to verify that he at least went 5-for-5 on his fist 5 attempts, and it looks like he finally misses on his 6th. Maybe the article I read counted other games like playoffs or all-star games? Then there are the countless in-game breakaways that Lemieux was just money on. Either way, the ability to beat a goalie so consistently one-on-one puts him way above Bossy.

Lemieux/Gretzky - I think Lemieux's really the best, but it's close. They could have scored more if that's all they focused on. Gretzky's 92 beats Ovechkin's 65 even considering era.

Bobby Hull/Ovechkin - the 7-time Rocket boys stand alone as the best "pure" goal scorers.

Rocket Richard - the first 50/50 guy. Special boost for playoff goal scoring ability.

Bossy - the man starts his career with nine fifty goal seasons in a row - this is just unreal. Again very strong in both the regular season and the playoffs.

 

[daver]

What's the argument for Lemieux being better than Bossy?

Mario's domination over a 12 year period ('84 to '96) easily matches Bossy's nine year prime with two, maybe three seasons that are better than Bossy's best season.

 

[daver]

Bossy is the Gordie Howe of goalscorers without the longevity. His peak season and prime doesn't match the very best but is close enough to the top tier to give him an honourable mention.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bossy is the Gordie Howe of goalscorers without the longevity.

His peak season and prime doesn't match the very best but is close enough to the top tier to give him an honourable mention.

These two sentences contradict each other.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Mario's domination over a 12 year period ('84 to '96) easily matches Bossy's nine year prime with two, maybe three seasons that are better than Bossy's best season.

I tend to agree with this.

I also think Mario had the most versatile arsenal in terms of all-time goal scoring.

 

[Killion]

I also think Mario had the most versatile arsenal in terms of all-time goal scoring.

Agreed. I cant think of another player with a broader palette in terms of distance, range, versatility than perhaps Jean Beliveau, the player which he is most often compared to. Vinnie Lecavalier, Tampa despite their off ice difficulties a franchise that somewhat parallels, similar to the Montreal model. Beliveau. Martin St. Louis obviously smaller, more agile, but of the same mold on certain levels.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I tend to agree with this.

I also think Mario had the most versatile arsenal in terms of all-time goal scoring.

I'm going to say Mr. Hockey had as versatile an arsenal.

 

[Sentinel]

Mario's domination over a 12 year period ('84 to '96) easily matches Bossy's nine year prime with two, maybe three seasons that are better than Bossy's best season.

Lemieux had six 50 goal seasons, Bossy nine. Add to that three straight 17 goal campaigns for Bossy. So, no.

Goal-scoring versatility doesn't matter here. I don't care if a player only has ONE move, as long as it works.

 

[The Panther]

Greatest playoff goalscorer is Maurice Richard. I don't think there should be any doubt about that. I think there is a strong case for Gretzky at number 2. When he was beaten in playoff goals, it was by Kurri, whom he was setting for 80％ of his scores. And Gretzky proved he could still get it done in playoffs in deep runs at age 32 and 36.

After this, it gets murky. Lemieux and Bossy are up there, but I don't think they have enough on their playoff resumes to hold first place. The argument for Bossy here is based on 1981 to 1983 only. And Lemieux had about three deep runs, in one of which he was shut down in round three, and in another of which he was out-goaled by Stevens. Those guys are both up there, but with their resumes being a little thin, I can't place them at number one.

Beyond that, the usual suspects -- Esposito, Lafleur, Howe, etc. move into view.

Mind, I'm only talking about playoff goal-scoring!!

The interesting thing is, the two guys who have the strongest cases for number one in regular season only -- Hull and Ovechkin -- rarely enter the conversation as greatest playoff goal-scorer.

Looking at 'overall' is where it starts to get tricky...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Greatest playoff goalscorer is Maurice Richard. I don't think there should be any doubt about that. I think there is a strong case for Gretzky at number 2. When he was beaten in playoff goals, it was by Kurri, whom he was setting for 80％ of his scores. And Gretzky proved he could still get it done in playoffs in deep runs at age 32 and 36.

After this, it gets murky. Lemieux and Bossy are up there, but I don't think they have enough on their playoff resumes to hold first place. The argument for Bossy here is based on 1981 to 1983 only. And Lemieux had about three deep runs, in one of which he was shut down in round three, in and another of which he was out-goaled by Stevens. Those guys are both up there, but with their resumes being a little thin, I can't place them at number one.

Beyond that, the usual suspects -- Esposito, Lafleur, Howe, etc. move into view.

Mind, I'm only talking about playoff goal-scoring!!

The interesting thing is, the two guys who have the strongest cases for number one in regular season only -- Hull and Ovechkin -- rarely enter the conversation as greatest playoff goal-scorer.

Looking at 'overall' is where it starts to get tricky...

62 goals in 119 games in the NHL playoffs for Bobby Hull.

Not bad being primarily in the 60's.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

The little goalscoring tally project I did a couple years back, since purged by HF, showed Lemieux to be the best per-game adjusted goalscorer (by a comfortable margin). Meanwhile, Ovechkin actually produced the most goals by virtue of just being on the ice.

Take adjusted numbers with a grain of salt.

 

[Killion]

Greatest playoff goalscorer is Maurice Richard. I don't think there should be any doubt about that.

So.... Greatest Money Player All Time?..... Or was it just luck, happenstance? Right place right time?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Gretzky's 92 beats Ovechkin's 65 even considering era.

No it doesn't.

NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[Midnight Judges]

The interesting thing is, the two guys who have the strongest cases for number one in regular season only -- Hull and Ovechkin -- rarely enter the conversation as greatest playoff goal-scorer.

That's because playoffs are a team accolade, but people have a hard time separating individuals from team metrics in the post season. Everyone acts like playoff stats are somehow a different animal than regular season stats but for the most part that is nonsense - due to sample sizes, etc. The best players are the best players, regular season or post season.

Ovechkin has the highest playoff GPG of his generation (over 50 games played).

 

[Canadiens1958]

That's because playoffs are a team accolade, but people have a hard time separating individuals from team metrics in the post season. Everyone acts like playoff stats are somehow a different animal than regular season stats but for the most part that is nonsense - due to sample sizes, etc. The best players are the best players, regular season or post season.

Ovechkin has the highest playoff GPG of his generation (over 50 games played).

Regular season results are also a team accolade by this fallacious reasoning. The individual numbers, easily discernable in the RS, will not get a player a pass into the playoffs if they do not contribute sufficiently to winning.

Playoff numbers are not generated like RS numbers. Weak teams are eliminated from participation and players have to adjust to one opponent over a stretch of usually 4 to 7 games where travel and rest are as equal as possible, contrary to RS competition.

Likewise in the playoffs players with deficiencies in their complete game drop by the wayside early since they do not contribute to winning.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

richards playoffs are overrated, there was 2 rounds, what are everyone elses numbers after 2 rounds?

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[Boxscore]

I've never seen Richard, Morenz or Bobby Hull with my own eyes. As for the best I've seen, I'll go...

Mario Lemieux as the best overall goal scorer, based on shot arsenal and raw skill. The dude could score from anywhere, anytime. Wrist shot, slapper, snap, backhand, deke, through the legs, breakaway, from distance, bar-down, five hole... insane reach... you name it. Mario was a straight up assassin.

Best "pure shooter" goes to Mike Bossy. Forget dekes, moves, reach, etc.... for shot alone, I go Boss.

Both of these guys are ahead of Brett Hull, Gretzky, Robitaille, Ovechkin, Bure, Selanne, Kerr, etc. for me.

 

[The Panther]

No it doesn't.

NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com

Dude... you can't take Hockey Reference's "Adjusted Stats" seriously as a frame of reference.

The "Adjusted" thing is nice to make very broad and general comparisons of scoring levels across different eras. It gives us a very rough idea of how Elmer Lach's 50-game season scoring totals in 1945 would compare to Esposito's 78-game season in 1971. For broad interest, it has its uses, but it is not official, it's not accurate whatsoever, and it's based on entirely faulty (though statistically necessary) reasoning.

As one of countless examples of how "Adjusted stats" are wonky, consider Gretzky in 1982 and in 1983: In '82, he scored 212 points -- that's 60 more points than any other player had ever scored in history, and he won the scoring title by 65 points. Then in 1983, he scored 16 fewer points (partly due to less ice-time)... but won the scoring race by 72 points. Consequently, "adjusted stats" tells us that Gretzky had a better offensive season in 1983 than in 1982, which is absurd. Are 1982 and 1983 different scoring eras? Obviously not.

Yet, conversely when Gretzky won the scoring title by 79 points (over his teammate), Hockey reference says he scored 163 points 'adjusted', while Mario in 1989, who won the scoring title by only 31 points, scored 165 (in a season when 4 players scored 150+ points no less!). Again, this makes no logical sense.

Another example: Mario Lemieux scored 100 points in 73 games as a rookie, whilst Sidney Crosby scored 102 in 81 games. But according to 'Adjusted stats', Lemieux scored 79 points and Crosby 99. Does that strike you as realistic? Was Mario Lemieux at age 19 twenty points lower than Crosby at 18? He was not.

I could go on. Anyway, it's nice to have mathematical stats for broad comparison across eras, but it's not something you want to quote for truth. It's basically only of interest if you can't do a peer-comparison, which is always more meaningful.

 

[The Panther]

62 goals in 119 games in the NHL playoffs for Bobby Hull.

Not bad being primarily in the 60's.

Yes, you're right -- those are great numbers. Hull has his place, playoffs too. (But I don't think he compares to M. Richard.)

 

[The Panther]

Best "pure shooter" goes to Mike Bossy. Forget dekes, moves, reach, etc.... for shot alone, I go Boss.

Both of these guys are ahead of Brett Hull, Gretzky, Robitaille, Ovechkin, Bure, Selanne, Kerr, etc. for me.

I know you're trying to draw a distinction of "pure shooter" here, but why would you rank Bossy over Gretzky, when head to head for 8 seasons, Gretzky completely destroyed Bossy as a goal-scorer (while primarily focused on playmaking)?

 

[The Panther]

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I'm curious about Gretzky's numbers in rounds three and four as compared to the first two...

I can crunch his numbers quite easily later (when I get home from work), but I don't really have the resources to do other elite players'. So, if anyone else can...

 

[Boxscore]

I know you're trying to draw a distinction of "pure shooter" here, but why would you rank Bossy over Gretzky, when head to head for 8 seasons, Gretzky completely destroyed Bossy as a goal-scorer (while primarily focused on playmaking)?

This is a one of those arguments that's hard to make - I admit that. As silly as it sounds (looking at Gretzky's demigod numbers), I never considered him a "pure sniper." And it's not due to that lazy "because he has so many assists" argument either. Gretzky accomplished so much because of his unmatched intelligence, hockey IQ, instincts, timing, and of course skill set.

But even in the 1987 Canada Cup, Gretzky told Lemieux, "When I give you the puck, stop giving it back to me. You are twice the goal scorer I am... shoot the puck!" And that wasn't Gretz just being the wonderful diplomat that he is / was. That was in the heat of competition, with a major series vs. the Soviets at stake. Gretzky was all business, all about the victory. And I happen to agree with him.

Gretzky, as insane as he was, did a large majority of his damage during the 80's in close with dekes and curled slappers. Often, Gretzky outsmarted the defense and goaltender to the point where the goalie's angles were compromised or there was a ton of net to shoot at. All to Gretzky's credit, this resulted in a ridiculous amount of goals, but Gretzky wasn't known for beating goalies with one-timers disguised as darts, or laser snap shots while flying down the wing like Bossy or Lafleur. Bossy could place a shot better than anyone I've ever seen, minus Lemieux. He was a lethal sharp-shooter, Gretzky did his damage in a completely different way. If this makes sense, Gretzky's goal was "scored" before he even put the puck in the net. I'd even venture to say - when it came to pure shooting and release, Gretzky's line mate, Kurri, was a better shooter.

To use a modern day comparison - I don't consider McDavid a "sniper" or "pure goal scorer" even though he scores a ton and wins the Art Ross. Laine, Ovechkin, Matthews, MacKinnon, all have better "shots" than McDavid, but he still scores a crap ton of goals.

 

[The Panther]

This is a one of those arguments that's hard to make - I admit that. As silly as it sounds (looking at Gretzky's demigod numbers), I never considered him a "pure sniper." And it's not due to that lazy "because he has so many assists" argument either. Gretzky accomplished so much because of his unmatched intelligence, hockey IQ, instincts, timing, and of course skill set.

But even in the 1987 Canada Cup, Gretzky told Lemieux, "When I give you the puck, stop giving it back to me. You are twice the goal scorer I am... shoot the puck!" And that wasn't Gretz just being the wonderful diplomat that he is / was. That was in the heat of competition, with a major series vs. the Soviets at stake. Gretzky was all business, all about the victory. And I happen to agree with him.

Gretzky, as insane as he was, did a large majority of his damage during the 80's in close with dekes and curled slappers. Often, Gretzky outsmarted the defense and goaltender to the point where the goalie's angles were compromised or there was a ton of net to shoot at. All to Gretzky's credit, this resulted in a ridiculous amount of goals, but Gretzky wasn't known for beating goalies with one-timers disguised as darts, or laser snap shots while flying down the wing like Bossy or Lafleur. Bossy could place a shot better than anyone I've ever seen, minus Lemieux. He was a lethal sharp-shooter, Gretzky did his damage in a completely different way. If this makes sense, Gretzky's goal was "scored" before he even put the puck in the net. I'd even venture to say - when it came to pure shooting and release, Gretzky's line mate, Kurri, was a better shooter.

To use a modern day comparison - I don't consider McDavid a "sniper" or "pure goal scorer" even though he scores a ton and wins the Art Ross. Laine, Ovechkin, Matthews, MacKinnon, all have better "shots" than McDavid, but he still scores a crap ton of goals.

I agree with all of this (nice post, btw). I think we're just down to aesthetics and semantics. But, I mean, if you're the coach or whatever, don't you want the guy who simply scored more -- against the same competition, same era -- than the guy who scored less, but did it more artistically?

But yeah, I get what you're saying...

 

[daver]

I think the Wayne vs. Bossy comparison needs some context as the head to head does not include two of Bossy's seasons including his peak season. The comparison below starts with Bossy's first season (77/78) vs. Wayne's first season (79/80).

Bold indicates better season,

(#X) indicates best seasons between the two of them based on comparison vs. the Top 5 other goalscorers in the respective season

Year 1

Bossy #2 in goals, #2 in GPG (min. 50 games)
Wayne T5 in goals, #9 in GPG (min. of 50 games)

Year 2

(3) Bossy #1 in goals, #1 in GPG
Wayne #5 in goals, # 5 in GPG

Year 3

Bossy #5 in goals, T4 in GPG
(1) Wayne #1 in goals, #1 in GPG

Year 4

Bossy #1 in goals, T1 in GPG
Wayne #1 in goals, #1 in GPG


Year 5

Bossy #2 in goals, #2 in GPG
(2) Wayne #1 in goals, # 1 in GPG

Year 6

Bossy #3 in goals, #3 in GPG
Wayne #1 in goals, # 2 in GPG


Year 7

Bossy #8 in goals, #3 in GPG
Wayne #6 in goals, #7 in GPG

Year 8

Bossy #3 in goals, #4 in GPG
Wayne #1 in goals, #2 in GPG

Year 9

Bossy #2 in goals, #T2 in GPG
Wayne #T23 in goals, #8 in GPG


Wayne betters Bossy four seasons to three and had the two best seasons. It is a clear win for Wayne but no where close to destroying him.