Goaltending prospect depth

[Kubera55]

The thing is that each team only needs one goalie, and goalies have progressed so far over the last 20 years, that for the most part each team has good goaltending.

The difference between the top and bottom goalies has shrunk greatly IMO.

In 1984

Best goalie >>>>>>>> 20th best goalie in the NHL

Now

Best goalie >>> 20th best goalie in the NHL

Eh, tell that the Blues and Flyers, who've been blaming their early playoff exits for a decade on bad goaltending.

I dunno John. I respect what you are trying to say, but I think you are misrepresenting the realities. A good young goalie is a very valuable commodity. Heck, Bacashusa got the Stars a very strong prospect, and he wasn't even playing well. The Rangers used a fairly disapointing Dan Cloutier (under threat of losing him in the expansion draft) to get the No.4 overall pick (sadly wasted on Brendl). In short, deals can be made.

Personally I think what you are really observing is that good young goalies rarely get traded. Teams hoard them. Haven't the the Sabres been hoarding their young goalies seemingly forever? The Redwings have kept Legace as a back-up for what, a decade? And I've already brought up Ahonen. If a team has a good young goalie, they just don't trade them until they have to. Forwards and defensemen get moved a lot more frequently, at least in part because there are so many more of them. THAT's the effect I think you are observing.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Eh, tell that the Blues and Flyers, who've been blaming their early playoff exits for a decade on bad goaltending.

I dunno John. I respect what you are trying to say, but I think you are misrepresenting the realities. A good young goalie is a very valuable commodity. Heck, Bacashusa got the Stars a very strong prospect, and he wasn't even playing well. The Rangers used a fairly disapointing Dan Cloutier (under threat of losing him in the expansion draft) to get the No.4 overall pick (sadly wasted on Brendl). In short, deals can be made.

Personally I think what you are really observing is that good young goalies rarely get traded. Teams hoard them. Haven't the the Sabres been hoarding their young goalies seemingly forever? The Redwings have kept Legace as a back-up for what, a decade? And I've already brought up Ahonen. If a team has a good young goalie, they just don't trade them until they have to. Forwards and defensemen get moved a lot more frequently, at least in part because there are so many more of them. THAT's the effect I think you are observing.

Flyers playoff losses over the pst decade have almost entirely been due to a lack of goal scoring and not poor goaltending.

A few things on the Cloutier deal:

#1. It was 5 years ago.

#2. It wasn't Cloutier for the #4 pick The actual trade was

Dan Cloutier
Niklas Sundstrom
First round pick pick in 2000
Third round pick in 2000

for

#4 overall selection in 1999 (Pavel Brendl)

 

[Lionel Hutz]

Pittsburgh have one top notch prospect and the rest are hit and miss type of prospects, really not remarkable prospects at all. Chiodo hasnt done anything in the NHL or AHL, Goepfert is sitting out a year and is a long way away, Brown is a dark horse but only Red Line likes him a lot (Thoresen again?). Duba and Lehto as you say are very unlikely to figure at all. Crawford-West.. has he even played in the NCAA yet? An 8th round pick who could hardly be further away from the NHL.

New York has two goalies that were drafted top 10 plus the best Euro prospect goalie. Fleury is the best of the lot but they have three very good goalies. Then they have LaBarbera. He probably wont be much but you cant deny his AHL stats are outstanding and he's probably better than all the Pens goalies other than Fleury and closer to the NHL too.

The liklihood is that only 4 will be NHLers, the rest have the odds severely stacked against them. Those 4 are Fleury, Blackburn, Montoya, Lundqvist and Rangers have 3.

I just dont see the rationale and it certainly isnt a walk. Great stud goalie, nice depth of interesting prospects but its not as good as the Rangers.

I'm not really sure that I would go as far as to take Pittsburgh 1st, but I do disagree with some of your assesment.

Mostly I disagree on your assesment of Chiodo, and the statement that he has shown nothing at either level. He had a short stint in the NHL last year and played extrordinarily well. I suspect you didn't see any of this play, you're just looking at his GAA and thinking, well, he must be bad. Well, he earned that GAA playing for the team that allowed far and away the most goals last year. He did it under a constant barrage of higlight reel scoring opportunities, and he still performed well. He also had a solid year in the AHL. I think Chiodo has emerged as a much more solid prospect than I ever thought he was initially.He's a kid, and he has a lot to lear, but the skills and reflexes are definately there, and I am sold on him as an NHL calibre prospect.

West is not a factor, but I would not be so dismissive of Duba and Goephert.

In short, it seems to me that NYR may have the stronger group in that their top 3 prospects are quite good, but its only really a slight edge to me. I think both Montoya and Blackburn are a bit overrated.

If not NYR, I would certainly put the Pens goaltending prospects over some of the teams people here have advocated.

 

[Kubera55]

Flyers playoff losses over the pst decade have almost entirely been due to a lack of goal scoring and not poor goaltending.

I said, 'blamed' didn't I? ;-)

Actually I agree with the diagnosis for those two teams. But I don't agree with your assertion that 'the top 20 goalies' are getting closer together. The stats are getting closer, but the number of truly 'special' goalies, much like the number of truly special QB's, never really seems to change much. But being to lazy to hash out that lengthy argument, I just took an easy shot at it ;-)

 

[Levitate]

dunno, as kub has pointed out before...it almost seems like montoya is underrated at this point because everyone thinks he's overrated (does that make sense? )

i don't think blackburn is overrated either cuz the majority of the people seem to think he's already done or is crap anyways (gee he didn't dominate the NHL at the age of 18, he must be a bust)

both of them have good #1 goalie potential though easily.

lundqvist is probably the most underrated goalie prospect around...

 

[Chaos]

Heck, Bacashusa got the Stars a very strong prospect, and he wasn't even playing well.

Just to point out, that deal was made out of a need for both teams. Stars were stacked with goalie prospects and needed some more d-man prospects, and St. Louis didn't have anyone even close to Bacashihua's upside in terms of goalie prospects.

 

[Gwyddbwyll]

Mostly I disagree on your assesment of Chiodo, and the statement that he has shown nothing at either level. He had a short stint in the NHL last year and played extrordinarily well. I suspect you didn't see any of this play, you're just looking at his GAA and thinking, well, he must be bad. Well, he earned that GAA playing for the team that allowed far and away the most goals last year. He did it under a constant barrage of higlight reel scoring opportunities, and he still performed well. He also had a solid year in the AHL. I think Chiodo has emerged as a much more solid prospect than I ever thought he was initially.He's a kid, and he has a lot to lear, but the skills and reflexes are definately there, and I am sold on him as an NHL calibre prospect.

That's the key though. Solid prospect.. not exceptional or remarkable.

You're right I didnt see him play so I can only make an educated guess. However a lot of things arent very impressive, the Isles let him go, he wasnt drafted high despite an OK junior career, he had a crap 2 games in the ECHL and an OK time in the AHL.. lots of goalies with a better record and his 8 NHL games werent against any good teams and probably were when the Penguins actually played quite well. And he's not looking good in his 8 AHL games so far. There isnt anything exceptional that stands out to even bear comparision with Lundqvist or Montoya or even LaBarbera.

There is nice depth though, certainly above most of the NHL but not a cakewalk to #1.

 

[kimzey59]

Just to point out, that deal was made out of a need for both teams. Stars were stacked with goalie prospects and needed some more d-man prospects, and St. Louis didn't have anyone even close to Bacashihua's upside in terms of goalie prospects.

Not to sound too much like a Homer, but Barulin has about the same upside that Cash has(Cash probably has a slight edge, but it is not as big as you might think(and yes, I have watched both prospects)). The reason we needed to get Cash is because we were unable to bring Barulin over and we needed immediate help in that area. Had we been able to bring Barulin over we probably wouldn't have made the trade.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Even without him, Montoya and Lundqvist is as strong a 1-2 punch as there is.

True but after that it kind of tapers off, so I wouldn't call the Rangers the BEST goaltending tandem in the league.

 

[Lionel Hutz]

There is nice depth though, certainly above most of the NHL but not a cakewalk to #1.

I agree on that.

 

[Levitate]

well they have labarbera who was the AHL's MVP goaltender last year...and they have chris holt who is doing very well this year and also looked very good in the WJC camps earlier this year...he and montoya were the best goalies there

probably not #1 potential but with a shot at being a solid NHL backup...and honestly you can't tell me that you believe there are a bunch of teams that have potential #1 goalies in their system after their top 1 or 2 guys. that's just BS and homerism. so saying it "tapers off" after the rangers top guys...well what the hell do you think happens with the rest of the teams in the NHL? that they have potential #1's 4 or 5 deep?

 

[thestonedkoala]

Look at the Bruins, they have potentially solid goaltenders after their initial first and second. Or the Sharks, or the Canadians, or the Senators.

The problem I have with the Rangers is that after their first two guys, Montoya and Lundqvist they have question marks like the rest of their team and not much depth. Holt and Labarbara?

 

[Gwyddbwyll]

Look at the Bruins, they have potentially solid goaltenders after their initial first and second. Or the Sharks, or the Canadians, or the Senators.

The problem I have with the Rangers is that after their first two guys, Montoya and Lundqvist they have question marks like the rest of their team and not much depth. Holt and Labarbara?

But "question marks" are just the same as "potentially solid" guys.

You've also omitted Blackburn from your analysis. You might not like him but you cant ignore him. Most teams have one, some have two highly rated goalies, the Rangers have three. Then LaBarbera matches up very well to anyone ranked 4th in another organisation.

 

[leafaholix*]

True but after that it kind of tapers off, so I wouldn't call the Rangers the BEST goaltending tandem in the league.

Lundqvist, Montoya, and Blackburn is better than any other 3 from any other organization... you can't just count out Blackburn, he'll be back eventually.

 

[JR#9*]

Lundqvist, Montoya, and Blackburn is better than any other 3 from any other organization... you can't just count out Blackburn, he'll be back eventually.

That is the bottom line...can anybody name 3 goalies within an organization that have more potential then Montoya, Blackburn and Lundqvist.

That is failing to mention Labarbera who was the AHL MVP at 24 last year.

Montoya is the best goalie in college hockey and a big game goalie, Lundqvist is the best goalie in Europe and has dominated the SEL at 21 yrs of age but the guy that everybody keeps forgetting about and writing off is the guy who will suprise people the most and that's Blackburn.

The kid played great for an 18 yr old behind the NYR's firewagon style of hockey where he was facing very high quality shots and oddman rushes against all while playing in the big lights of Broadway.He actually at one point started 18 straight games and certainly didn't look out of place at all.

His mental toughness was evident and he is w/o a doubt going to be a #1 goalie in thsi league and one of the best ones at that when he gets to his prime.The kid is the real deal that has only been sidetracked by a pinched nerve in his shoulder that has taken a really long time to heal correctly.

As for those who feel the NYR's shouldn't have taken Montoya at the 6th spot on "04 I'm curious as to who exactly is a better prospect that was available at that spot?

 

[Masterovic]

Rangers and Blues for me

 

[acr*]

Ever since the travesty of Sinden trading Mood for Casey straight up, the Bruins have had no goaltending whatsoever, and have had teams that would've been capable of making a SC run if they had a goalie
Now, they overreacted and picked as many goalies as they could in the draft, and they're pretty well set for the next ten years

Raycroft and Toivonen are gonna have a great duel for #1, and one of them will end up being traded. They both have potential to be lke Mike Richter and Dominik Hasek respectively. Raycroft is positional, never seems to get caught out of position, Toivonen has the best butterfly skill and agility I've seen since Hasek in his prime, and he's only 20; all told, they'll probably end up putting up similar numbers, just in different styles

Then we've got a bunch of college goalies down 4-7 on our prospect depth chart that some other teams would kill to have as a 2 or 3

 

[leafaholix*]

That is the bottom line...can anybody name 3 goalies within an organization that have more potential then Montoya, Blackburn and Lundqvist.

That is failing to mention Labarbera who was the AHL MVP at 24 last year.

Montoya is the best goalie in college hockey and a big game goalie, Lundqvist is the best goalie in Europe and has dominated the SEL at 21 yrs of age but the guy that everybody keeps forgetting about and writing off is the guy who will suprise people the most and that's Blackburn.

The kid played great for an 18 yr old behind the NYR's firewagon style of hockey where he was facing very high quality shots and oddman rushes against all while playing in the big lights of Broadway.He actually at one point started 18 straight games and certainly didn't look out of place at all.

His mental toughness was evident and he is w/o a doubt going to be a #1 goalie in thsi league and one of the best ones at that when he gets to his prime.The kid is the real deal that has only been sidetracked by a pinched nerve in his shoulder that has taken a really long time to heal correctly.

As for those who feel the NYR's shouldn't have taken Montoya at the 6th spot on "04 I'm curious as to who exactly is a better prospect that was available at that spot?

Another way of looking at it... if you put up Montoya or Lundqvist against the top goalies on the other 29 teams, they would be the favourites most of the time. They're both #1 prospect talents and New York has 2 of them.

 

[Jeff Goldblum]

Don't discount the Pens, with Fleury, Caron (who is often forgotten), Chiodo, Goepfert, Duba, Brown, etc. Fleury and Caron both have #1 potential, and I think Chiodo will be one of the most reliable backups in the league for many years.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Penguins and the Bruins I can name that match up well against the Rangers, and maybe the Canadians, the Capitals, and the Senators.

 

[RangerBoy]

With all other positions I think the BPA is usually the best strategy, but NOT with goaltenders. Not that high in the draft.

You need 6 defenseman, and 12 forwards, but you ONLY need 1 goalie.

Are you Bobby Clarke who seems to forget about goaltending every year?

Goaltenders are like pitchers,they are irrepacabe

 

[SedinFan*]

Canucks:

Auld
Schneider
Ellis-Plante
Mensator
McVicar

They're in good shape for once.

 

[leafaholix*]

Penguins and the Bruins I can name that match up well against the Rangers, and maybe the Canadians, the Capitals, and the Senators.

You can throw out any organization, you'd be 100% wrong.

Lundqvist/Montoya/Blackburn > Fleury/Chiodo/Goepfert
Lundqvist/Montoya/Blackburn > Toivonen/Sigalet/Brown
Lundqvist/Montoya/Blackburn > Danis/Lindberg/Halak
Lundqvist/Montoya/Blackburn > Ouellet/Daigneault/Stana
Lundqvist/Montoya/Blackburn > Emery/Thompson/Guard

Closest group would probably be Washington, but they're still way back in terms of talent.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Are you Bobby Clarke who seems to forget about goaltending every year?

Goaltenders are like pitchers,they are irrepacabe

I think that his point is that there is little difference between having two good goalie prospects and five because only one can be the number one guy. The Sharks, for example, ended up with three pretty good goalies but had to basically give one of them away because they had nowhere to put them all.

 

[RangerBoy]

Look at the Bruins, they have potentially solid goaltenders after their initial first and second. Or the Sharks, or the Canadians, or the Senators.

The problem I have with the Rangers is that after their first two guys, Montoya and Lundqvist they have question marks like the rest of their team and not much depth. Holt and Labarbara?

How many goaltending prospects do you want any team to have?The Rangers goaltending situation is flux.Mike Dunham and Kevin Weekes are free agents in the summer.I love reading those posts about teams have 5 goaltending prospects in their organization.Some of those guys won't get out of the AHL or be offered pro contracts.It's quality and not quantity.If Dan Blackburn recovers from his shoulder injury,then the Rangers have 3 goaltenders with the potential to play in the NHL.If two of their top three goalies make it,then it does not really matter what Lababera or Holt become.Holt could the back up goalie on the USA WJC team but no one is saying Holt will be an NHL player