Goal Scoring Woes

Takeru

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Oct 6, 2014
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Gotta have the puck before you can cycle it. Habs' forwards rarely have coordinated rushes. It's usually one forward going into the o-zone by himself with no one to pass to, then forced to dump it in. But I don't even think the overall problem is with the forwards, I think it starts with our D. We have a surplus of superior PMDs -- Subban, Markov, Gilbert, Gonchar, Beaulieu -- who nevertheless have trouble doing what their skill set says they should be able to do: Skating the puck out of our zone. Instead, most of our defence get outmuscled along the boards and have to rush their passes, resulting in a stretch pass or icing. Also, the D collapses around Price instead of attacking the opposing forwards, which leaves them further back with more ground to make up. Our forwards are caught between back-checking deep in our zone and rushing up ice, which is why we don't often see a controlled entry into the o-zone. They're always playing catch-up.

What would help our D's mobility and skill is a physical presence to create space for them to move. Tinordi would be great; I'm still hoping to see him soon. With a better balance of size and strength to complement our D's speed we could play a less timid game, gain control faster, and our forwards could have more confidence skating up ice, hence more set-ups and cycles in the o-zone.

Balance is everything. You're right, our D corp as it is, is very redundant. I know we strive to imitate Chicago's model of puck possession, but their D-men's only skill isn't handling the puck, they bring physicality as well. We'll get teared apart if we head into playoffs as is, even with Price standing on his head.
I would honestly play Tinordi over Gilbert at this point, he can't do much worse offensively or defensively, and should at least be more physical. Right-left handed balance is important, but not more than having a variety of skills in your D corp.
 

c3z4r

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Jul 4, 2011
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Beaulieu- 0 goals in 38 games

Hasn't scored an NHL goal yet and not a big scorer in the AHL or juniors so not sure if it's a slump or reality here.

He led the Bulldogs in scoring as a rookie D despite not having much offensive support, and he was almost ppg in his last junior year.
 

LyricalLyricist

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Aug 21, 2007
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He led the Bulldogs in scoring as a rookie D despite not having much offensive support, and he was almost ppg in his last junior year.

I believe it was talking about goals, not points. I was referring to goals as a result:) I'm very much aware he has offensive talent though and the points will come at the NHL level. He's one of those guys that will break out into a solid offensive D when it all clicks, not worried.
 

Haburger

Registered User
Jan 17, 2011
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Gallagher- 1 goal last 16 games
Eller- 2 goals last 23 games
Sekac- 1 goal last 22 games
Prust- 1 goal last 19 games
Malhotra- 0 goals in 46 games
Thomas- 0 goals in 11 games
Bournival- 0 goals last 12 games
DLR- 0 goals in 4 games
Beaulieu- 0 goals in 38 games
Gonchar- 0 goals last 24 games
Gilbert- 1 goal last 40 games
Emelin- 2 goals last 51 games


12 out of 18 skaters have scored 8 goals in a combined total of 306 games.

We all knew this would be our biggest issue this season.not sure how mb is gonna fix it.
 

Lshap

Hardline Moderate
Jun 6, 2011
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You said it yourself, we have superior PMDs. It's actually pretty awesome, PK, Markov, Gonchar, Beaulieu, Gilbert are all amazing, great, good, pretty decent, at moving the puck. Isn't it bizarre that those guys are struggling moving the puck?? You think it's because we don't have a bigger guy?? That's what Murray was and we were worse last year. Our players aren't the problem.
We should be one of the best teams to transition the puck up. You really don't have that many D squads in the NHL that can compare to our level of puck moving skills.
Really makes no sense that we struggle so much. Our coverage, positioning and strategy are the issues.

We both know Murray is a bad example of a physical dman. Having a stronger dman who can skate would free our softer, more mobile dmen from the tasks they're not suited for.

Coverage, positioning and strategy are all related, and I mentioned that issue. If you want our PMDs to skate up the ice, don't start every transition from so deep in our zone. The fact that we play a collapsing system forces our D backwards to set up a defensive perimeter around Price. If they intercept a pass, great, our fast D is off and running. But if it becomes a battle on the boards, guys like Markov, Gilbert and Gonchar are in too deep and easily outmuscled. Some physical balance would tip the odds in our favour.
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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We both know Murray is a bad example of a physical dman. Having a stronger dman who can skate would free our softer, more mobile dmen from the tasks they're not suited for.

Coverage, positioning and strategy are all related, and I mentioned that issue. If you want our PMDs to skate up the ice, don't start every transition from so deep in our zone. The fact that we play a collapsing system forces our D backwards to set up a defensive perimeter around Price. If they intercept a pass, great, our fast D is off and running. But if it becomes a battle on the boards, guys like Markov, Gilbert and Gonchar are in too deep and easily outmuscled. Some physical balance would tip the odds in our favour.

I don't think it would change much to be honest. Emelin is physical, he has issues. Whenever he was paired with Markov, a better puck mover than Gilbert, he looked even worse. It didn't help Markov at all.
Markov-PK is one of the best pairs in the NHL, if not the best. Even they have issues with puck moving, that's insane and it's not because they're soft pushovers. They win most of their battles anyways. PK? The guy comes out of the corner with the puck or moves it to one of the other players like 90% of the time (number pulled straight out of thin air but you get my point).

You said it coverage, positioning and strategies are the reason why we struggle. Adding Tinordi isn't going to change any of this.

The Habs should arguably be the best transitioning team in the league. It's part of why some criticize Therrien. The fact our D looks sloppy most of the nights falls on him, not the players.
 

Mario le Magnifique

Habs apologist, closet Pens fan
Dec 6, 2007
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You said it yourself, we have superior PMDs. It's actually pretty awesome, PK, Markov, Gonchar, Beaulieu, Gilbert are all amazing, great, good, pretty decent, at moving the puck. Isn't it bizarre that those guys are struggling moving the puck?? You think it's because we don't have a bigger guy?? That's what Murray was and we were worse last year. Our players aren't the problem.
We should be one of the best teams to transition the puck up. You really don't have that many D squads in the NHL that can compare to our level of puck moving skills.
Really makes no sense that we struggle so much. Our coverage, positioning and strategy are the issues.

But the thing is, we're winning games.

I really don't know how you could define it as a 'strugggle'.

I'd understand if we'd be talking about the Leafs 'struggles'.

So the Habs score few goals, but they let even fewer in.

Is it the system, is it the coach ? Perhaps. Is it only our superstar goalie ? Nope. The goalie is an important part of the equation, but the team also plays a big part in not allowing too many scoring chances, rebounds, whatnot.

Defense and the ultimate stats for a defense (goals against), wins championships.

I'd rather struggle to score many goals but win games than score a plethora of goals and lose, like the Flyers or Carlyle's Leafs.

Funny how you claim 'players aren't the problem' when half the lineup is in a 10+ games scoring slump. Yet they find ways to win games. The system, positionning and strategy, works great. First in the league for GAs and our system and coach sucks, players aren't accountable for anything. That's a pretty drastic way to look at the situation. How can the system, coverage etc can be at fault if the team is winning without scoring many goals ? LOL The system and coverage actually wins us games.
 
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Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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Jeddah
But the thing is, we're winning games.

I really don't know how you could define it as a 'strugggle'.

I'd understand if we'd be talking about the Leafs 'struggles'.

So the Habs score few goals, but they let even fewer in.

Is it the system, is it the coach ? Perhaps. Is it only our superstar goalie ? Nope. The goalie is an important part of the equation, but the team also plays a big part in not allowing too many scoring chances, rebounds, whatnot.

Defense and the ultimate stats for a defense (goals against), wins championships.

I'd rather struggle to score many goals but win games than score a plethora of goals and lose, like the Flyers or Carlyle's Leafs.

Stats never tell you the whole story. Why is goals against the ultimate stats for defense? Why not shots against? If you allow a lower number of shots but you're goalie is pretty average, then you're GAA can be lower. Doesn't mean your defense is bad, just means your goalie is mediocre.

In any event, I wasn't looking at stats, and saying ''We win'' is what I expect from a fan who just started watching the game, no offense. Because as you know, there's a lot that goes into a hockey game and a superstar goalie can pull victories away for you on a regular basis.

I was looking at it from a pure observational point. Our guys struggle to move the puck, they shouldn't. Our strategy seems to have been dumb-ed down to cycle-cycle-cycle the puck until you out cycle yourself and lose it or bore the opposition out. Our forwards are too far out every time. Our transition is very slow.

It's been better lately, hopefully they keep it up. As for what I rather have, a balanced team that's good at both defending and scoring, like Chicago, Nashville, NYR, WSH, Detroit..
Be good at both sides of the rink.

And this idea that we don't allow a lot of scoring chances,etc, is pretty ridiculous.
The Blues always played strong defense, their goalies always put up great numbers.
Were they ever discussed for the Hart and Vezina?? There's a reason why people are saying Price could win both. It's not because we have been playing this strong defensive system that allows Price to make easy saves on most occasions.
 

MathMan

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Jan 20, 2006
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So the Habs score few goals, but they let even fewer in.

Relative to the league, the Habs are 25th in shots for per game, 21st is goals for per game, 22nd in shots against per game, and 1st in goals against per game.

One of these things is not like the others. These aren't fancy stats, and it's not hard from them to see why the Habs are successful, and it sure ain't a stifling defensive trap.
 

montreal

Go Habs Go
Mar 21, 2002
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Gallagher- 1 goal last 16 games

Generally a 15-20 goal guy. That's a 5 goal pace per year. He would need 3 in 16 to be about 15 goals.

you are looking at them as individuals, the problem is when all of them aren't scoring at the same time.

2)He is close to Subban caliber when it comes to puck possession, but yeah, at some point if he doesn't start producing, MB will need to make a call on this one.

4) Worst thing is, 5 out of our 6 D are considered offensive D, while only 2 of them are getting the job done, as you've mentionned.

How long do we wait for Beaulieu to start producing, if this team wants to win now. A blueline that has only 2 players able to put the puck in the net could really hurt our playoff chances. not sure what management will do here.

We don't have a #1 center...yet.

MT delaying Galchenyuk's development at center was understandable for the first few years... now it's time to put him there and KEEP him there

I am ok with waiting on Galchenyuk to be our #1 center, it's a huge role on a top team for such a young player so if it takes longer then so be it. I only care about winning now, I want a cup!

Gotta have the puck before you can cycle it. Habs' forwards rarely have coordinated rushes. It's usually one forward going into the o-zone by himself with no one to pass to, then forced to dump it in. But I don't even think the overall problem is with the forwards, I think it starts with our D. We have a surplus of superior PMDs -- Subban, Markov, Gilbert, Gonchar, Beaulieu -- who nevertheless have trouble doing what their skill set says they should be able to do: Skating the puck out of our zone. Instead, most of our defence get outmuscled along the boards and have to rush their passes, resulting in a stretch pass or icing. Also, the D collapses around Price instead of attacking the opposing forwards, which leaves them further back with more ground to make up. Our forwards are caught between back-checking deep in our zone and rushing up ice, which is why we don't often see a controlled entry into the o-zone. They're always playing catch-up.

What would help our D's mobility and skill is a physical presence to create space for them to move. Tinordi would be great; I'm still hoping to see him soon. With a better balance of size and strength to complement our D's speed we could play a less timid game, gain control faster, and our forwards could have more confidence skating up ice, hence more set-ups and cycles in the o-zone.

I wouldn't say a surplus of superior puck moving D, after Markov/Subban the rest are ok.

I also don't think Tinordi is ready to help us win just yet.

Balance is everything. You're right, our D corp as it is, is very redundant. I know we strive to imitate Chicago's model of puck possession, but their D-men's only skill isn't handling the puck, they bring physicality as well. We'll get teared apart if we head into playoffs as is, even with Price standing on his head.
I would honestly play Tinordi over Gilbert at this point, he can't do much worse offensively or defensively, and should at least be more physical. Right-left handed balance is important, but not more than having a variety of skills in your D corp.

Not a big fan of Gilbert but no way would I play Tinordi over him now. I think he could easily do worse.

I don't think it would change much to be honest. Emelin is physical, he has issues. Whenever he was paired with Markov, a better puck mover than Gilbert, he looked even worse. It didn't help Markov at all.
Markov-PK is one of the best pairs in the NHL, if not the best. Even they have issues with puck moving, that's insane and it's not because they're soft pushovers. They win most of their battles anyways. PK? The guy comes out of the corner with the puck or moves it to one of the other players like 90% of the time (number pulled straight out of thin air but you get my point).

You said it coverage, positioning and strategies are the reason why we struggle. Adding Tinordi isn't going to change any of this.

The Habs should arguably be the best transitioning team in the league. It's part of why some criticize Therrien. The fact our D looks sloppy most of the nights falls on him, not the players.

Emelin is one of those D's that shouldn't play on his off-side. It was painful watching him with Markov, imo they should have kept him at LD.

Don't see why we should be the best transitioning team in the league, the Habs have a big drop off in talent after the likes of Pac, Subban, Markov, Galchenyuk, Pleks. As for our D, when 4 of 6 are made up of Gonchar, Beaulieu, Emelin and Gilbert I wouldn't expect too much of that group.

Stats never tell you the whole story. Why is goals against the ultimate stats for defense? Why not shots against? If you allow a lower number of shots but you're goalie is pretty average, then you're GAA can be lower. Doesn't mean your defense is bad, just means your goalie is mediocre.

You win or lose with goals not shots, if you are looking at shots then you have to look at the quality. For me I could care less as long as they win, it's the lack of offense that's very concerning imo.
 

S Bah

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Nov 7, 2010
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victoria bc
The Habs have lots of prospects that can snipe, before they reach the NHL, they need to learn the defensive part of the game, that's development. You can't teach players offensive smarts/talent, but defence is taught and once our prospects learn in the AHL, then they need to pick the speed up to the NHL level, some do others can't, but the Habs seem to have many that are doing really good on the defensive end checking, reading the plays, etc.:handclap::handclap::handclap:
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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Emelin is one of those D's that shouldn't play on his off-side. It was painful watching him with Markov, imo they should have kept him at LD.

Don't see why we should be the best transitioning team in the league, the Habs have a big drop off in talent after the likes of Pac, Subban, Markov, Galchenyuk, Pleks. As for our D, when 4 of 6 are made up of Gonchar, Beaulieu, Emelin and Gilbert I wouldn't expect too much of that group.
Why? Because we don't have one bad puck mover on defense. Emelin is arguably the worse, but even he can make some decent passes.
Transitioning starts from the defense and it also has to do with how you play as a 5 man unit.

You win or lose with goals not shots, if you are looking at shots then you have to look at the quality. For me I could care less as long as they win, it's the lack of offense that's very concerning imo.

That's not what we were discussing. Looking at wins doesn't tell you much about how you're playing. It only means you outscored your opponent. There could be various reasons as to why this happened.
 

FisherKing

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Feb 27, 2002
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You said it yourself, we have superior PMDs. It's actually pretty awesome, PK, Markov, Gonchar, Beaulieu, Gilbert are all amazing, great, good, pretty decent, at moving the puck. Isn't it bizarre that those guys are struggling moving the puck?? You think it's because we don't have a bigger guy?? That's what Murray was and we were worse last year. Our players aren't the problem.
We should be one of the best teams to transition the puck up. You really don't have that many D squads in the NHL that can compare to our level of puck moving skills.
Really makes no sense that we struggle so much. Our coverage, positioning and strategy are the issues.

In other words, coaching...
 

montreal

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Why? Because we don't have one bad puck mover on defense. Emelin is arguably the worse, but even he can make some decent passes.
Transitioning starts from the defense and it also has to do with how you play as a 5 man unit.

That's not what we were discussing. Looking at wins doesn't tell you much about how you're playing. It only means you outscored your opponent. There could be various reasons as to why this happened.

I guess for me a group that is made up of Gonchar, Beaulieu, Emelin and Gilbert is not what I would consider a group that would be close to the best transitioning team in the league. To me it's kind of funny that we are the #1 team in the NHL from Dec 23rd or so (heard on sportsnet last game), when you look at how much we struggle to score goals, bad PP, lack of talent and outside of our top 2 D, we don't have anything overly impressive on the blueline.

I don't care how they are playing, I just want wins. Habs could get outshot 50-2 but if we win 1-0 then that means we got another 2 points which helps us get home ice in the playoffs.
 

Takeru

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Oct 6, 2014
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I guess for me a group that is made up of Gonchar, Beaulieu, Emelin and Gilbert is not what I would consider a group that would be close to the best transitioning team in the league. To me it's kind of funny that we are the #1 team in the NHL from Dec 23rd or so (heard on sportsnet last game), when you look at how much we struggle to score goals, bad PP, lack of talent and outside of our top 2 D, we don't have anything overly impressive on the blueline.

I don't care how they are playing, I just want wins. Habs could get outshot 50-2 but if we win 1-0 then that means we got another 2 points which helps us get home ice in the playoffs.

The answer isn't that complicated, Price and Pacioretty are carrying this team on their backs, with honorable mentions to Subban/Markov/Galchenyuk and sporadic contribution from some others. That's about the only working things in our lineup, though the playoffs will be another story if we can't manage to get help.
 

Haburger

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Jan 17, 2011
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But the thing is, we're winning games.

I really don't know how you could define it as a 'strugggle'.

I'd understand if we'd be talking about the Leafs 'struggles'.

So the Habs score few goals, but they let even fewer in.

Is it the system, is it the coach ? Perhaps. Is it only our superstar goalie ? Nope. The goalie is an important part of the equation, but the team also plays a big part in not allowing too many scoring chances, rebounds, whatnot.

Defense and the ultimate stats for a defense (goals against), wins championships.

I'd rather struggle to score many goals but win games than score a plethora of goals and lose, like the Flyers or Carlyle's Leafs.

Funny how you claim 'players aren't the problem' when half the lineup is in a 10+ games scoring slump. Yet they find ways to win games. The system, positionning and strategy, works great. First in the league for GAs and our system and coach sucks, players aren't accountable for anything. That's a pretty drastic way to look at the situation. How can the system, coverage etc can be at fault if the team is winning without scoring many goals ? LOL The system and coverage actually wins us games.

Good point .isnt the object of hockey to score more goals than u let in?
 

Mario le Magnifique

Habs apologist, closet Pens fan
Dec 6, 2007
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Good point .isnt the object of hockey to score more goals than u let in?

It's a lot sexier to win games 4-1 than 2-1, I'll give them that.

But some fans here would want us to play a more open style of hockey, and it's very difficult to win games 2-1 that way.

You need an average of 3+ goals for to play a more open style. Like the Leafs did under Carlyle.

These fans would be better Leafs fans than they are Habs fans. Habs don't have the offensive talent to play an offensive style of hockey.

Deal with it.
 

Jigger77

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Dec 21, 2007
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Montreal
I'm not too concerned with the lack of offense from Beaulieu. I'm pretty sure they told him not to worry about the offense, play solid defensively and the offense will come eventually. He's been looking great of late being what he's supposed to be, a defenseman. Eventually you'll want some offense out of a guy like that but for now I think they just want him focusing only on D. He's got too much natural skill for him not to provide any offense. It'll come.
 

Monctonscout

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Jan 26, 2008
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Beaulieu has improved defensively but he still brings nothing offensively.
I don't see him being more than a #4 maybe a #3 if he improves his offensive game.

He has a lot of offensive skill, but plays a very safe game this year, probably because the coaching staff wants him to focus on that for now.

I'm more worried about Eller and his line than Beaulieu/Gilbert/Emelin.

With Parenteau coming back maybe he can help Eller-Sekac
 

nhlfan9191

Registered User
Aug 4, 2010
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It's sad. We have a goalie and team that could win the cup if we just had the scoring we had even a few years back. Watching a player like Gallagher who just shoots it into the goalie whether he has a wide open net or not playing top 6 is depressing.
 

Jigger77

Registered User
Dec 21, 2007
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Montreal
It's sad. We have a goalie and team that could win the cup if we just had the scoring we had even a few years back. Watching a player like Gallagher who just shoots it into the goalie whether he has a wide open net or not playing top 6 is depressing.

Yeah but you need guys like Gallagher, even if he doesn't score he opens up the middle and creates havoc for the D. A lot of what Gallagher provides doesn't show up on the scoresheet. But yeah, if he had the finishing skills of a St-Louis say, he'd be a ridiculous player.
 

MathMan

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Jan 20, 2006
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These fans would be better Leafs fans than they are Habs fans. Habs don't have the offensive talent to play an offensive style of hockey.

Two issues that really need to be emphasized here:
- the Habs are actually bad at defense.
- in a hockey game, there is only one puck. If you are using it to play offense, the other team does not. The best defense is to hold the puck and deny it to your opponents.

Really, there's this misconception that more offense will necessarily lead to poorer defense. But what you're really advocating when you talk about an offensive style" is the notion that the Habs do not have the talent to play a high-event style, where the two teams trade shots/chances at a furious pace. That really isn't the point. Being high- or low- event is orthogonal to the question of whether you outplay your opponent.

Right now, though, the Habs are not playing an offensive style (they are not high-event in the opposing zone) but they are not playing a defensive style either (they are high-event in their zone). Right now what they are is a club that is poor at both offense and defense and is being carried by goaltending.

Don't mistake "we don't allow a lot of goals" with "we play an effective defensive style". It's not the only way to get there, as the Habs are clearly showing.

So in that sense, it makes sense for Montreal to try to be as low-event as possible, because they are not a good team. High-event styles favor the more powerful side as the larger samples reduce the impact of luck. Montreal can't outplay opponents, so they're down to hoping they get lucky and/or that Price saves them, so it makes sense for them to do what bad teams do, namely try to limit the number of events.

If Montreal could match or outplay teams, then a high-event style would become favorable to them even if their shooting was average, because they do have the advantage of excellent goaltending. But right now, the low-event style is good -- not because they lack finishing ability, per se, but because they're generally not playing very well.

Whether they have a roster that should result in such poor play is another matter however. I think they ought to be significantly better than they are, and it makes sense to try and fix that problem before deciding whether a low- or high-event style makes the most sense for them.

And ultimately this is why they don't score: they have a poor possession game, and the opponent spends more time trying to score on them than they do trying to score on the opponent. This isn't a "defensive style", though, this is just poor hockey being papered over by unreal goaltending. If Price was merely excellent rather than superhuman this year, we wouldn't be talking about the Habs' supposed "defensive style".
 
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Lafleurs Guy

Guuuuuuuy!
Jul 20, 2007
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Our exploitation line strategy gives all the offensive opportunity to one line. It's really not a surprise why the other lines aren't scoring.

And MT's system is a place where offense goes to die anyway. It's a very passive system that doesn't take advantage of the PMDs we have on the back end. Nobody should be surprised by this.
 

lou4gehrig

Bedard 2023
Aug 2, 2005
5,711
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Gallagher- 1 goal last 16 games
Eller- 2 goals last 23 games
Sekac- 1 goal last 22 games
Prust- 1 goal last 19 games
Malhotra- 0 goals in 46 games
Thomas- 0 goals in 11 games
Bournival- 0 goals last 12 games
DLR- 0 goals in 4 games
Beaulieu- 0 goals in 38 games
Gonchar- 0 goals last 24 games
Gilbert- 1 goal last 40 games
Emelin- 2 goals last 51 games


12 out of 18 skaters have scored 8 goals in a combined total of 306 games.

Thanks for starting this interesting thread. Just curious, how does that compare to other teams? Perhaps that is a normal breakdown of the bottom 75% of the scorers on any given team at any given time? I noticed each player has a different game duration as if these numbers are cherry picked out of context?

We have the best record over the past 10 games in the NHL. I guess we should score more goals no doubt, but to say the bottom 75% are the problem. Who really knows? Scoring is down across the league as well. How many players will even crack 90 points? 1 or 2?
 

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