Post-Game Talk: [GM66] Canucks defeat Stars | 5-2 | Di Giuseppe, Kuzmenko, Beauvillier, Brisebois, & Miller

[JohnHodgson]

If this level of play/effort/structured van br sustained over a season, are we a wild card team next season?

We have a top 10 centre, dman, and goalie when healthy supported by other top 60 forwards (Miller, Kuzmenko) and top 30/40 dman (Hronek).

Doesn't seem outlandish.

Main needs are a moving out OEL and Myers, adding a legit 3C, two dependable supporting second pairing dmen. Work is cut out but doable.

The one non sustainable factor is the overplaying of our top players and minimal time for our youngsters.

If Tocchet can get the likes of Podkolzin, Kravtsov playing 13-15 min a night by this time next season and producing in the 0.35-0.45ppg range I think we'll be in better shape.

Absolutely.

The division is extremely weak.
Vegas is the only scary team and who knows what the status of Mark Stone is moving forward. We had 92 points last year… the team is better now and has wayyyy better coaching.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

This is literally a copy and paste from 80% of the Canucks fanbase.

Might as well get ChatGPT to start making posts. Zero original thoughts these days…

As opposed to you regurgitating the same crap we heard every year from the benning bros right?......

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

How many times have we said that though… lets hope that for once it actually carries over to that start of next season.

Exactly, I hope it carries over, I really do, but really we see/hear this every year, and anyone that calls it out is bitter and needs to put their head in the sand, like OMG were winning games when it doesn't matter again like every year before, that guarantees we are a playoff team next year and anyone who doesn't believe, we at the very least get a wild card spot is out of their minds like, WTF.......

Show the fanbase this in October, maybe then, us realistic Canucks fans will start to change our tune, until then, this is like groundhog day and none of are falling for it.

 

[JohnHodgson]

The relevance of 2 years ago barely exists. It offers some kind of hope that he could regain that form, but it also is offering undue opportunity to a player based on what he used to be.

I hope his best days are ahead of him, but the play dies on his stick far too frequently, he's slower and his shot doesn't scare anyone anymore. He gets points because of his line-mates. Obviously he makes a decent play now and again, but he's a shadow of his former self and people have noticed. I don't know what you expect fans to do when they see a guy not providing value relative to his cap hit. Is there any fanbase anywhere in any sport that doesn't criticize a player who has underperformed for as long as Brock has?

I also see people who are really trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and over emphasizing the few glimpses of good play and sometimes praising totally average play. Just today I saw posts praising a fairly pedestrian play where he enters the zone alone and curls back to buy time before putting a pass into the skates of a wide open JT Miller who expertly recovers and snipes one. Miller made chicken salad out of lemons, but somehow Brock made a great play.

Nobody's saying he'll be a 72 point pace player. 2 years ago really isn't that long ago - it's still relevant.

He scored 23 goals and 46 points in 71 games last year.

It's very possible that most of the fanbase is unjustly writing him off. Brock has been through quite a lot (injuries, personal) and he missed most of training camp and started the year after a hand surgery. Saying he only gets points because of his line mates is just an obnoxious statement. Do you think he plays with Gretzky or something? If he was leeching on a line with Petey and Kuzmenko - I could potentially agree to a certain extend but that's just blatant bias. Boeser still is a great offensive player. His point production is actually matching his career pace despite his "down year".

Boeser gets more flack on this message board (and other) than OEL and Myers at points in time. He's probably $1-1.5M overpaid... which is far better than both OEL and Myers.

Boeser is a top six forward who's having a down year but still able to provide good production. Is he the same guy as his rookie year? Of course not. We had high hopes that Boeser would be a franchise forward... he obviously didn't turn out to be one. That doesn't mean he's completely useless like many have inferred.

I just re-watched the 5th goal... what are you talking about man?? LOL. Did Boeser sleep with your girlfriend or something?

Boeser makes a good defensive play to help steer the puck away from the net, retrieves the puck and has a controlled zone exit. He then uses his non-existent "speed" to gain the neutral/offensive zone. He curls and draws two defenders and sends a great pass to JTM for a goal. JTM has so much open space that he doesn't need the perfect tape to tape pass. It's actually crazy that you're going out of your way to paint a bad picture for player who had 3 assists. The inability to be objective is really a plague here.

 

[The Iron Goalie]

What a nice goal, too. I can’t recall one that pretty ever for Brisebois in the AHL.

This was the only one I could remember being close.

 

[VancouverJagger]

FFS - I'm sorry I'm having a hard time being happy about winning garbage games now when all it's doing is putting us further down the draft board...........ugh. Been there done that fuk

 

[dez]

So excited for next year, I'm buying 2 season ticket packs, Hope Restored.

 

[Sedinery]

Miller, Boeser and Garland are reestablishing some market market value

We blew the odds on Bedard but lets hope we cash in all 3 in the summer for future pieces

Canucks are perennial NHL Champs … of the non playoff teams

 

[andora]

Miller, Boeser and Garland are reestablishing some market market value

We blew the odds on Bedard but lets hope we cash in all 3 in the summer for future pieces

Canucks are perennial NHL Champs … of the non playoff teams

Do you actually mean futures or pieces that will contribute immediately and in the future?

 

[Jay26]

This is literally a copy and paste from 80% of the Canucks fanbase.

Might as well get ChatGPT to start making posts. Zero original thoughts these days…

You may as well get ChatGPT to predict Canucks seasons..because that's how familiar this shit is.

 

[m9]

Have to be impressed with the changes in leadership and structure we've seen over the last few weeks. Bit of a wake-up call for the Boudreau fan club who watched the team devolve into a complete mess under his reign, and credit to Tocchet for making the best of a tough situation.

Getting NHL-capable goaltending is a big plus, obviously.. but the difference in high-danger chances is noticeable too. The defensemen playing certainly have their limitations but the change in structure has allowed them to play up to their capabilities - at least short-term. OEL was awful, Luke Schenn hadn't played well since December & Ethan Bear is a mess in his own/neutral zone defensively so maybe it isn't that big of a surprise that we've seen guys come in and outplay them or at least play to a similar level.

The 3-pt nights aren't sustainable, but this is the kind of way the team needs Boeser to play.

I was a big fan of Aman at the beginning of the year here because I thought he did smart things defensively. Played lanes well, made some plays in the back-check, used a long stick. Didn't really the offensive touch other than a few flashes, though. I'm really interested to see what kind of jump he takes over the off-season and what his ceiling is. I don't want to get too excited yet but really all you can hope for out of 4th liners with upside is to flash multiple times throughout the season because maybe it means they can provide those things more consistently.

Thought it was a quiet night for EP.. yet he was still unlucky to not have 2 or 3 points. Some fantastic saves by Murray off his setups.

There's been a ton of nice goals lately, but for whatever reason that PDG goal was my favorite in awhile. Great play by Miller of course, but just absolutely perfect positioning and a sneaky deflection by PDG to open the scoring. Not the flashiest play, but a smart & efficient one.

 

[Sharkbomb]

The difference between being 6th and 9th in terms of the lottery are not that great, 5% chance for the 9th worst team, 7.5% chance for the 6th worst team. At 10th you go down to 3.5% and at 5th you go up to 8.5%. Based on that, knowing this team has zero chance of finishing in the bottom 4, I really wouldn't get too stressed about a winning streak here or there. Its probably better for the team than a marginally higher chance of getting Bedard, as it creates a positive environment of hope in the locker room, which is good if we want to keep our young players wanting to remain here long term.

And you can really say the same about non-Bedard players, after the top 4 you go into tier II. And tier II probably has 6-7 players. So again, the difference between 6th and 9th isn't going to make or break the franchise.

 

[CanucksMJL]

Nobody's saying he'll be a 72 point pace player. 2 years ago really isn't that long ago - it's still relevant.

He scored 23 goals and 46 points in 71 games last year.

It's very possible that most of the fanbase is unjustly writing him off. Brock has been through quite a lot (injuries, personal) and he missed most of training camp and started the year after a hand surgery. Saying he only gets points because of his line mates is just an obnoxious statement. Do you think he plays with Gretzky or something? If he was leeching on a line with Petey and Kuzmenko - I could potentially agree to a certain extend but that's just blatant bias. Boeser still is a great offensive player. His point production is actually matching his career pace despite his "down year".

Maybe he does rebound. Many do not rebound. Some do, but many do not. He has certainly been hampered by injury, but multiple injuries season over season is not a reason to be optimistic for the future. The idea that personal issues have affected his play is reasonable and understandable. If that is a significant factor then that is a serious problem that has no timeline for resolution. I know that some people carry their grief for decades, not everyone, but some do.
He get points because of his linemates. He gets points because he's on a PP that would be just as effective without him. He can't retrieve the puck, he consistently loses board battles. That is what I see. I also see glimmers of hope that maybe he is improving, but I'm a long way from being a believer. Don't get me wrong, I want this guy to succeed, I just don't like the majority of what I see.

Boeser gets more flack on this message board (and other) than OEL and Myers at points in time. He's probably $1-1.5M overpaid... which is far better than both OEL and Myers.

Boeser is obviously far less of a problem than OEL or Myers. The most optimistic posts on OEL I see hope that he can be better than guys making 1M. Those are the optimistic takes. Myers sucks and the posts reflect that, but nobody really has any hope for improvement beyond potentially becoming a non-liability on the ice. Nobody believes it's even possible for Myers to live up to his price, we're resigned to believing his top end is as a player who doesn't actively hurt the team. I don't think I've seen any posts defending either player or suggesting they are more than what we're currently looking at. Brock on the other hand is seen as either: a worthy reclamation, a guy who needs new scenery or a turd with enough leftover shine that we don't have to pay too much to jettison.
Brock doesn't get more flack, people just think that of all our bad contracts he is the most moveable. It's more painful when he continues to disappoint because there isn't the complete hopeless apathy that OEL and Myers have surrounding them.

Boeser is a top six forward who's having a down year but still able to provide good production. Is he the same guy as his rookie year? Of course not. We had high hopes that Boeser would be a franchise forward... he obviously didn't turn out to be one. That doesn't mean he's completely useless like many have inferred.

Brock is a top six forward no doubt because he can't play in the bottom six. He has regressed and it's very concerning. There are concerns about his conditioning. Conditioning is a function of work-ethic and if work-ethic is a problem then that is doubly concerning. It's easy to say that conditioning can be fixed because it can be fixed. All you need is work-ethic, but if you don't have that then what? I can totally see a scenario where the franchise focus on demanding a higher standard gets teamwide buyin and Brock sees the light. I just need to see it first.

I just re-watched the 5th goal... what are you talking about man?? LOL. Did Boeser sleep with your girlfriend or something?

Boeser makes a good defensive play to help steer the puck away from the net, retrieves the puck and has a controlled zone exit. He then uses his non-existent "speed" to gain the neutral/offensive zone. He curls and draws two defenders and sends a great pass to JTM for a goal. JTM has so much open space that he doesn't need the perfect tape to tape pass. It's actually crazy that you're going out of your way to paint a bad picture for player who had 3 assists. The inability to be objective is really a plague here.

I re-watched it to make sure I saw what I saw. Brock skates up the ice uncontested at an unremarkable pace and does a button hook to buy time. The only way to screw it up is to either fall down or botch the pass. It's an unremarkable play made remarkable because he did botch the pass but Miller recovered. He didn't draw 2 defenders. There was the receiving d-man and the equally sluggish backchecker who split off to stand in front of the net. Brock had all the time in the world to put a pass on the tape and if the recipient of that pass had not been an elite scorer it would have been a broken play.
My original point stands that this play illustrates Brock's reliance on others to produce.



Ironically I largely agree with your sentiment that many posters here are reflexively critical of anything that isn't trading away everything and tanking for the draft. I think that there are other ways to build a team besides 1st overall picks. Good pro-scouting, a focus on player development, NCAA free agents are all ignored by the tank crowd. We literally added a likely 40 goal scorer for nothing but it's largely irrelevant because we didn't draft him. The tankists believe that players win championships not teams. I believe you need to be serious about winning to attract winners to your organization. It's a top down total philosophy that is uncompromising.
Pittsburgh got lucky. It wasn't some brilliant strategy, they were on the verge of folding as a franchise so they sucked and fluked into generational talents. After ownership stabilized they managed to build a team around those players.
Chicago had terrible ownership so they sucked. If you suck you get high picks. Old man Wirtz or however you spell it died and the new leadership built a team around the fortunate picks.
Edmonton had terrible ownership so they sucked. They got lucky and drafted 1st overall repeatedly but the shitty ownership persisted. They have nothing to show for it. They drafted 2 of the best players in the world but they are still looking for players instead of a team.
I could go on but I'm getting tired. The point is that if you can't support the players you have whether you drafted them, signed them as FA or traded for them then you're going to be dissapointed.

 

[Sedinery]

Do you actually mean futures or pieces that will contribute immediately and in the future?

We WILL not be competitive immediately as much as the management and ownership wants fans to think

Winning these garbage games just helps them sell the “competitive team” angle

 

[shottasasa]

I feel good for Breisbois, that goal must have felt like it was a long time coming after 6 years of pro hockey.

Boeser had some great plays on both sides of the ice but I agree with @orcatown, conditioning might be a problem, which is frustrating. Earlier in his career I never thought it was an issue but perhaps he has fallen into a few bad habits in the off-season. Maybe Tochett is onto something and can convince Boeser to train differently this year.
I'm not sure if there is enough season left to get his perceived value high enough for a trade to work by this summer tho. I think GM's would want to see him get his goalscoring touch back before taking on his contract without giving back a bad contract or sizeable retention, which I don't think Allvin is keen on.

I've absolutely hated Myers' game all season, he was the real tank commander on this team with the high minutes and the incompetence all over the ice. But he's starting to look better now that he seems to know where his teammates are and doesn't need to think much. I've come to the conclusion that Myers is one of those players that needs to be in a highly structured system to be effective because he doesn't have great awareness of where his teammates are. The Boudreau "go make plays" philosophy works for really high IQ players like Hughes and Pettersson who have great awareness and generally make the right plays naturally, but for guys like Myers or young players that don't have the experience to freelance successfully (Podz, Hoglander), not so much.

On the tanking thing: I find it impossible to cheer against my favourite team in any sport while watching a game, I just can't do it. The difference for me is that when the team is good and going for the playoffs I get quite annoyed by losses, but in situations where losing games might be more beneficial in the long run for draft pick value, I am a lot less annoyed or indifferent to losses, though some of the defensive incompetence from this season really tested my patience. So in that respect I am on team tank, but I really can't relate to the posters who seem to be actively cheering for the team to lose and get annoyed when they win.
I wouldn't have minded if they lost more once it was clear this was a lost season, but this team probably should not have been in the bottom 8 on true talent and hockey players don't play to lose, so I'm resigned to a pick in the 8-11 range. It's not ideal, but at least they seem to have figured a few things out, and should be a better entertainment product going forward.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Yeah, I'm holding my breath on next year until we see what the D corps looks like.

The forwards can score and play. Demko is elite and can steal games.

The issue for years has been the construction (house of cards) of our blueline. Our blueline is basically Hughes standing alone on a sinking ship that keeps springing holes, and he's running around with a hammer, nails and planks of wood trying to cover up each hole as it comes.

Hronek should instantly be our #2 and is a good start. But a LOT of work is needed there, and I don't see us going crazy in free agency chasing big money guys, nor do I think we have the horses to pull off any big trades for a quality top four guy - which leaves the draft, which means time.

And on top of all that - the team ACTUALLY needs to start the season decently next year.

Who knows how it all plays out. It'll be interesting to see.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Not going to put too much weight on meaningless games but it is encouraging that we’re getting contributions from the bottom six on a fairly regular basis and some fringe NHL’ers look to be playing well on D. Tochett and co have the team playing a more structured game with forwards playing hard on the back check which helps the D perform their role better as well.
Looking forward to seeing Hronek play. I think his addition will really impact the D and let some D play further down where they should be. Adding a top 4 defensive D in the mould of a young Chris Tanev would really improve the defensive group. It’s tough but not impossible to find these guys.

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

You know the NHL season has entered garbage time when canucks fans start getting excited for next year. We're all Charlie Browns and we just love when Lucy puts the football down for us.

How we used to laugh at oilers fans for doing the same thing! But like the Oilers, I do think the Canucks have a future as a middling NHL franchise. My advice: just enjoy it! Forget about "success" as defined by the top NHL teams. Oilers fans know they aren't winning shit, but they're happy to watch McDavid zipping around out there. Seriously, go read their forum. None of them care that Holland isn't trading away their 1sts or whatever. They've truly given up on the idea that their team can compete for the cup. Digest Pettersson et al in the same fashion and you'll enjoy yourself much more.

 

[Byfield]

FFS - I'm sorry I'm having a hard time being happy about winning garbage games now when all it's doing is putting us further down the draft board...........ugh. Been there done that fuk

Yup I do not understand why the hell they are winning these games.

If they start slow yet again next year, this will look even worse

 

[alternate]

The positive part of this winning streak is how the team has been playing. They're not needing to score 6+ goals, nor are they needing Demko to god out. They're not winning on the back of a PP streak, or a Petey heater.

They're just playing good hockey. The improvements in the team's habits are already noticeable. This is easily the most organized the team has looked on the ice since AV. I mean we all know we are now going to draft 1 spot too late, but at least the team is starting to play with structure and to build an identity.

Happy for Bweezer. A pretty awesome week for him.

I'm seeing improvement in Boeser's play. He's actually spraying snow in recent games, something I honestly don't think I'd seen him do in a couple of years. Boeser's best attribute has always been his IQ imo, so when is head is not right, it's going to have a big impact on his overall game. When he's playing well, he's very good at getting the puck to the right guy at the right time. I feel that's why his production gets downplayed a bit, because he doesn't produce from flashy plays, but from good touches.

Do think he's moving his feet much better. Still needs to get a bit quicker, and agree his conditioning is sub-par, but those two things go together in a lot of ways. But enough improvement in his overall game imo that he will have positive value with a bit of retention.

Nice to see this patch work defence being able to look solid as a group. Winning with Juulsen-Myers-Burroughs on the RS. No need to rush Hronek in any way at this point of the season, but he upgrades that unit a lot. Another reason to believe this level of play is sustainable.

Noticed Tocchet had EP and JTM out killing penalties late in a 5-2 game. Not sure I agree with trying to run the score up against a tired team.

Wouldn't mind a couple losses soon though, just to ensure this season results in a decent payoff.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Yup I do not understand why the hell they are winning these games.

If they start slow yet again next year, this will look even worse

They are winning because they have their goalie back, and are playing cohesively...This is not a case of having to have a hot goalie steal them games either, they're winning these games fair and square...The Canucks talent level was never as barren as the Hawks,Ducks, so losing as much as those teams was unsustainable.

Nobody knows how they're going to start (or finish) next season..but we have to assume that this season is a precursor/exercise to get them ready (physically and mentally) for the start of next season.

 

[valkynax]

And shall we once again become the most elite team who have missed the playoffs but will take home that sweet sweet participation trophy? Find out next week on~ DRAGON BALL Z!

 

[andora]

Maybe he does rebound. Many do not rebound. Some do, but many do not. He has certainly been hampered by injury, but multiple injuries season over season is not a reason to be optimistic for the future. The idea that personal issues have affected his play is reasonable and understandable. If that is a significant factor then that is a serious problem that has no timeline for resolution. I know that some people carry their grief for decades, not everyone, but some do.
He get points because of his linemates. He gets points because he's on a PP that would be just as effective without him. He can't retrieve the puck, he consistently loses board battles. That is what I see. I also see glimmers of hope that maybe he is improving, but I'm a long way from being a believer. Don't get me wrong, I want this guy to succeed, I just don't like the majority of what I see.

Boeser is obviously far less of a problem than OEL or Myers. The most optimistic posts on OEL I see hope that he can be better than guys making 1M. Those are the optimistic takes. Myers sucks and the posts reflect that, but nobody really has any hope for improvement beyond potentially becoming a non-liability on the ice. Nobody believes it's even possible for Myers to live up to his price, we're resigned to believing his top end is as a player who doesn't actively hurt the team. I don't think I've seen any posts defending either player or suggesting they are more than what we're currently looking at. Brock on the other hand is seen as either: a worthy reclamation, a guy who needs new scenery or a turd with enough leftover shine that we don't have to pay too much to jettison.
Brock doesn't get more flack, people just think that of all our bad contracts he is the most moveable. It's more painful when he continues to disappoint because there isn't the complete hopeless apathy that OEL and Myers have surrounding them.

Brock is a top six forward no doubt because he can't play in the bottom six. He has regressed and it's very concerning. There are concerns about his conditioning. Conditioning is a function of work-ethic and if work-ethic is a problem then that is doubly concerning. It's easy to say that conditioning can be fixed because it can be fixed. All you need is work-ethic, but if you don't have that then what? I can totally see a scenario where the franchise focus on demanding a higher standard gets teamwide buyin and Brock sees the light. I just need to see it first.


I re-watched it to make sure I saw what I saw. Brock skates up the ice uncontested at an unremarkable pace and does a button hook to buy time. The only way to screw it up is to either fall down or botch the pass. It's an unremarkable play made remarkable because he did botch the pass but Miller recovered. He didn't draw 2 defenders. There was the receiving d-man and the equally sluggish backchecker who split off to stand in front of the net. Brock had all the time in the world to put a pass on the tape and if the recipient of that pass had not been an elite scorer it would have been a broken play.
My original point stands that this play illustrates Brock's reliance on others to produce.



Ironically I largely agree with your sentiment that many posters here are reflexively critical of anything that isn't trading away everything and tanking for the draft. I think that there are other ways to build a team besides 1st overall picks. Good pro-scouting, a focus on player development, NCAA free agents are all ignored by the tank crowd. We literally added a likely 40 goal scorer for nothing but it's largely irrelevant because we didn't draft him. The tankists believe that players win championships not teams. I believe you need to be serious about winning to attract winners to your organization. It's a top down total philosophy that is uncompromising.
Pittsburgh got lucky. It wasn't some brilliant strategy, they were on the verge of folding as a franchise so they sucked and fluked into generational talents. After ownership stabilized they managed to build a team around those players.
Chicago had terrible ownership so they sucked. If you suck you get high picks. Old man Wirtz or however you spell it died and the new leadership built a team around the fortunate picks.
Edmonton had terrible ownership so they sucked. They got lucky and drafted 1st overall repeatedly but the shitty ownership persisted. They have nothing to show for it. They drafted 2 of the best players in the world but they are still looking for players instead of a team.
I could go on but I'm getting tired. The point is that if you can't support the players you have whether you drafted them, signed them as FA or traded for them then you're going to be dissapointed.

Beautiful summaries and thoughts.. totally agree

We WILL not be competitive immediately as much as the management and ownership wants fans to think

Winning these garbage games just helps them sell the “competitive team” angle

Ok.. so actual futures then, which was the question

Playoffs is the next step, is that what you mean by competitive, playoffs?

 

[logan5]

You know the NHL season has entered garbage time when canucks fans start getting excited for next year. We're all Charlie Browns and we just love when Lucy puts the football down for us.

How we used to laugh at oilers fans for doing the same thing! But like the Oilers, I do think the Canucks have a future as a middling NHL franchise. My advice: just enjoy it! Forget about "success" as defined by the top NHL teams. Oilers fans know they aren't winning shit, but they're happy to watch McDavid zipping around out there. Seriously, go read their forum. None of them care that Holland isn't trading away their 1sts or whatever. They've truly given up on the idea that their team can compete for the cup. Digest Pettersson et al in the same fashion and you'll enjoy yourself much more.

What did Gillis do to build a SC final team that Allvin is not doing. Gillis built around the Sedins, who were only point per game players up until. 2010. Who’s to say a contender can’t be built around Hughes and Pettersson.

 

[VanJack]

Yup I do not understand why the hell they are winning these games.

If they start slow yet again next year, this will look even worse

You're exactly right. In a bizarre kid of twist, the Canucks are piling a lot of pressure on themselves coming out of next year's training camp, with their play closing out this season.

Canuck fans are like Charlie Brown.....waiting to kick the pigskin, but knowing it'll be pulled out at the last second by Lucy and then it's on to a face-plant.

The late season winning streaks with the last two versions of the Canucks and then the early season swoons, are a terrible look on the coaches and players. I mean seriously. Why can't they play this way for an entire season?

All you can hope for, is that somehow this version of the Canucks is somehow sustainable.