Post-Game Talk: [GM54] Canucks lose to Red Wings | 1-6 | Dries

[604]

So is the OEL trade worse than the Neely trade?

Yes

 

[MS]

Further to tonight's game and whether 6-1 was just 'terrible defensive play' or bad goaltending/luck, here's the summary from Natural Stat Trick.

Detroit Red Wings @ Vancouver Canucks, 2023-02-13

www.naturalstattrick.com

All-situations xGF was 3.25-2.32 in our favour.

HD scoring chances were 17-11 in our favour, and 15-10 at ES. So that means that Detroit allowed 1 goal in 17 HD chances and we allowed 6 on 11.

I don't generally love these stats and I don't agree that the game was tilted this much in our favour, but this was overall a pretty even game, and the story of this game was :

1) Their goalie made saves and ours didn't.
2) Their top line absolutely carved up the OEL-Schenn pairing.

 

[arttk]

I dont count Miller and Demko as core players.

I think the players that will be worth their contracts, and still be here as core pieces once the mess this team is in has been cleared is two. Hughes and Pettersson. Unless they demand a trade.

Nothing dishonest about that.

You still dont understand there is so much more to building a team than having those two players.


Please now answer that question.
We are well on our way to you being wrong. What is the goal post you would set that would make you admit that yeah, you got this wrong?

Of course you don’t see Miller as a core. He scored 99pt as a center last year and in the other thread you said he isn’t even a top6 player. Like the hate you have for him has clouded you so much.

I have never moved my goal post, I have always said I’ll wait till the end of the off-season.

Like I said, why are you so focused on being right? Like does seeing this team suck and not be able to win bring you more joy than being seeing them win?

I am more than fine to admit i am wrong if I am wrong at that point in time. But it brings me no joy to spend another 6 years watching the team rebuild. Just for context, if it takes another 6 years, my daughter who was not even born back when we made the finals will be close to high school graduation by the time the rebuild is over. Reality is some of us really don’t have as much time as you guys to cheer or another 6 years of suck.

 

[LordBacon]

It’s almost like our goaltending sucks, but our defence is also bottom 5 in the league and leads to even worse goaltending and the two are linked.

Signing more wingers will fix this

 

[me2]

Miller is playing as well as anyone could hope and his personal Tocchet's coach bump is impressive. I just wonder how long he'll stay motivated, and how long until his defensive effort starts to drop off.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Goaltenders steal games, that’s a thing in hockey with good or bad teams. It’s arguably the most important “make or break” position on the team.
The Flames are supposedly struggling because Markstrom has had a tendency to let in a bad goal in many games. In our games this season, you’d be hard pressed to find a game where we haven’t let in 2-3 bad goals. It’s incredibly demoralizing to go into a game knowing that there’s a good chance that your goalie is going to shot the bed.

Holtby, Halak, Martin, Delia and this seasons Demko.

Playing in a completely broken environment teaches bad habits to goalies.

 

[Hit the post]

Holtby, Halak, Martin, Delia and this seasons Demko.

Playing in a completely broken environment teaches bad habits to goalies.

Holtby and Halak were essentially damaged goods before they even donned the Canucks jersey,

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Goaltenders steal games, that’s a thing in hockey with good or bad teams. It’s arguably the most important “make or break” position on the team.
The Flames are supposedly struggling because Markstrom has had a tendency to let in a bad goal in many games. In our games this season, you’d be hard pressed to find a game where we haven’t let in 2-3 bad goals. It’s incredibly demoralizing to go into a game knowing that there’s a good chance that your goalie is going to shot the bed.

That goal at the beginning of the 3rd demoralized the team completely..Been killing the team all year.

 

[Annihilator Gator]

Guys a meathead. Just listen to him talk. 3 more years, boys!


Problem core has always been ownership. Of course. But this guy ain’t helping.

Problem isn't the core. It's the dumpster fire around it. Meat head or not. We had a players coach before and it worked for a bit now we get the hard ass. Who cares. Players atleast the worthwhile ones seemed to buy in more for a bit. It's a flawed roster. What makes you think I care at this point tank away.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Holtby and Halak were essentially damaged goods before they even donned the Canucks jersey,

And became undamaged when they moved on.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

How long until Tocchet wears out his welcome?

He’s just got here,he’s got nothing to worry about..There’s going to be more games like this,and it will be back to the drawing board the next day ..rinse,repeat..and this will happen until the penny finally drops

Guys that don’t buy In will likely get shipped out.

The coach has the hammer right now..not the players

 

[VanJack]

You know the real scary thing is not that this team sucks......it's the fact that Canuck management had no clue going into this season just how bad a team they were.

I mean teams like Chicago, Arizona, Anaheim and San Jose knew they were bad.....and I'm sure provided an early warning to their fan base for patience.

The Canucks, on the other hand, had their sights set on the playoffs at the start of the season. But right now they're closer to 31st overall than they are to a wildcard spot. And after tonight's game they're just a point up on San Joes and just two up on Arizona.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that this team could finish 29th ahead of only the Ducks, Hawks and the Blue Jackets.

It takes a special kind of management incompetence to so completely overrate and fail to actually grade your team.

 

[mossey3535]

This is on Clark at least 50% up to maybe 80%.

Both these goalies have demonstrated they can be. 899+ on shitty NHL teams. Even Delia who I didn't have big hopes for. The fact that they are playing below potential as well as your star goalie is a strike against the goalie coaching staff. This is the equivalent of having three Michael Hutchinsons on the team at once...except he kicked all their asses in save % despite being a total seive and completely unreliable.

For goaltending to be this bad, it has to fall on everyone's shoulders. It's not just a case of these being AHL goalies because, again, they have put up good NHL numbers in the past.

Team defence is a SIGNIFICANT factor in this. This team allows lots of tips and fails to defend cross crease. Those are literally the easiest ways to produce goals in the NHL. While I still think our goalies need to make some stops regardless of the circumstances, it's established that goalie stats are closely tied to team defence. I don't think that our poor defence can be dismissed simply because this is the first time in a decade we didn't have a stud goalie making a lot of stops they shouldn't have. We used to speculate what would happen if Demko or Marky would give us average goaltending....well we never got that, this year we have abysmal goaltending. And to me it's a vicious cycle where team defence and bad goaltending are feeding bad results in each other.

As usual it's a confluence of factors. If you want more details on why I think Clark is failing miserably this season, go read the Spencer Martin thread.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

You know the real scary thing is not that this team sucks......it's the fact that Canuck management had no clue going into this season just how bad a team they were.

I mean teams like Chicago, Arizona, Anaheim and San Jose knew they were bad.....and I'm sure provided an early warning to their fan base for patience.

The Canucks, on the other hand, had their sights set on the playoffs at the start of the season. But right now they're closer to 31st overall than they are to a wildcard spot. And after tonight's game they're just a point up on San Joes and just two up on Arizona.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that this team could finish 29th ahead of only the Ducks, Hawks and the Blue Jackets.

It takes a special kind of management incompetence to so completely overrate and fail to actually grade your team.

I thought they were a bubble playoff team this season..and I think the management did as well..It certainly wasn’t far fetched (or a high bar) when you consider how Boudreau finished the season..You would have expected that they would have picked up where they left off.

I didn’t foresee the season going absolutely pear shaped pretty much right off the bat.

 

[Intangibos]

I thought they were a bubble playoff team this season..and I think the management did as well..It certainly wasn’t far fetched (or a high bar) when you consider how Boudreau finished the season..You would have expected that they would have picked up where they left off.

I didn’t foresee the season going absolutely pear shaped pretty much right off the bat.

You haven't foreseen anything no matter how obvious for the last 10 years you've been posting here

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Isn't that what we did to Tryamkin?

Tryamkin literally said one of the main reasons he left was the smell of weed in the city lol.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

You haven't foreseen anything no matter how obvious for the last 10 years you've been posting here

Haven’t even been here 10 years bro..and opinions are like assholes..everybody has got one..even you.

 

[Intangibos]

Haven’t even been here 10 years bro..and opinions are like assholes..everybody has got one..even you.

My takes are W's across the board bud

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I don’t think it’s about controlling peoples opinion, it’s about calling out ridiculous opinions.

You can argue whether this is sucking or tanking or whatever’s. But regardless of how, we are still trending towards a top10 maybe even top 5 finish and we have another 1st rounder from the Bo trade. That’s the result of a tanking team.

Like imagine we are actually purposeful tanking right now, this is the exact same result you would expect if that was the case.

It’s weird to me to see people arguing that we should rebuild looking at this and still not be happy about the results.

Except its not.

And how you do not f***in understand the difference is mindboggling at this point.

 

[Sedinery]

No coach owns a system, who the f*** ever talks like that?

Coach’s implements a system for the team to follow. There is no such thing as owning. Are you like f***ing drunk or something?

Again your reading comprehension leaves alot yo be desired.

Do you think a “system” is a standard vanilla thing

Honest question, have you played the game at an even remotely competitive level?

 

[Sedinery]

How long until Tocchet wears out his welcome?

Agree 100 percent

He comes in and does nothing but pass “old style” commentary on the play. His last job was that of a commentator. He is the coach, do something, anything. We KNOW this roster sucks

We don’t need to hear a mouthpiece or we should have hired Cherry

Tocchet reminds me alot of Green. Talks like he has been there and done that as a coach but the reality is he is a fake nhl coach

Green 2.0

 

[Sedinery]

He’s just got here,he’s got nothing to worry about..There’s going to be more games like this,and it will be back to the drawing board the next day ..rinse,repeat..and this will happen until the penny finally drops

Guys that don’t buy In will likely get shipped out.

The coach has the hammer right now..not the players

Coach never has the hammer

We are in an era of guaranteed contracts, players hold the hammer and tge only ones that don’t are the fringe plugs that live on one year deals. We have plenty of those but fringe players are 4th line guys that won’t move the dial

Tocchet will lose the room snd management will get tired of being reminded of their incompetence

 

[Baby Pettersson]

Holy f*** lmao

I'm actually starting to like this guy. We all see it. He just has the balls to say it as it is. If it offends the players, well get better then!

 

[m9]

Rare game I actually turned off with 5 minutes left. Just nothing left to see.

One thing I'll mention is people tying Schenn's play to a recent injury haven't been paying attention. He hasn't been that good since December aside from the recent Devils game after the break. Was awful tonight.

Terrible defensive play, terrible goaltending. Just another game.

 

[tantalum]

I mean with OEL it's next to impossible to avoid having those two years at like 4.9MM in a season or two, but the question is simply this: do you think you can field a better D man in that roster spot for ~2.35MM for two seasons in years where OEL will be 33/34? I'd take that bet all day.

It actually also gives them some decent cap room the first couple of years which is where the current crunch lies. The 4.9 MM years will hopefully come right when the cap starts to move significantly. If they can convince ownership to pony up the $20 mil I think they have to do it.

Also, a few days ago people were talking bottom 5 is out of reach. It's well within reach. Bottom 3 is an outside shot but bottom 5 is achievable.

Anyways in the recent discussions I see the split on this board as being one of complete teardown vs not a complete teardown. The complete teardown folks seem to include Pettersson and Hughes as pieces that should be traded. Essentially it's the trade anyone and everyone approach for picks or blue chip prospects. At least that is what it appears to be when I read things.

I don't think that's realistic as no team simply jettisons every player let alone 25 year old players looking to be near 100 points and D-men that despite flaws is clearly a play driver and point per game. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You have a handful of players that can be with the team for more than 5 years with no guarantee that prospects/picks can equal the achievement. You can build around them. The smart move in ANY scenario IMO is to build around them. As you can, you automatically have a decent base to work from moving forward that many rebuilding teams simply do not have when moving on from an over 30 core...If you can get out from under the immediate cap crunch. I think they can IF they are prepared to do the big buy out.