Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Micklebot]

Good. He's gotten a ton of praise because he's done a lot of good here, especially this last year, but there's nobody else that's responsible for the position theyre in and he deserves all the criticism for it just the same.

It's a bit of an odd situation; Pinto has no leverage whatsoever, he's a piece we want to be part of our core going forward, but his options are really to take what we offer, or sit.

I don't mind playing hard ball with Pinto, I still think the best solution for both team and player is the SJ/Lebanc play, but maybe the league has sent out a memo to teams that if they pull that stunt it will be looked at as cap circumvention.

I think Tank circled back to the team and when they saw he was willing to take 5m, they figured it was too good to pass on and they'd deal with the ramifications later. I don't mind that.

They probably expected Murray to get bought out, or the league to agree to a slightly higher cap, or a combo of both. Lots of variables at play, had Murray gotten bought out and the league opted for a cap of 84.5 instead of 83.5, he'd be looking like a genius (hyperbole) right now.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Only 2 teams are projected to be over the cap when LTIR kicks in (Toronto and Tampa). Tampa has no issues, they'll just waive and send down Haydn Fleury and/or Logan Brown. Toronto will happily bury guys like Timmins and Gambrell.

Ottawa has the fewest players signed (20/23 - 30 teams are at 22+) and just 120k of space.

Right now, the Senators are in the worst cap position of any team in the league, considering how many contracts they have, how much space they have, and who's left to sign.

That's why it'll be so hard to make a trade to move anyone. Everyone knows we're "in a pickle".

Really has not given them any wiggle room with very few options. Expectations met.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It's a bit of an odd situation; Pinto has no leverage whatsoever, he's a piece we want to be part of our core going forward, but his options are really to take what we offer, or sit.

I don't mind playing hard ball with Pinto, I still think the best solution for both team and player is the SJ/Lebanc play, but maybe the league has sent out a memo to teams that if they pull that stunt it will be looked at as cap circumvention.

I think Tank circled back to the team and when they saw he was willing to take 5m, they figured it was too good to pass on and they'd deal with the ramifications later. I don't mind that.

They probably expected Murray to get bought out, or the league to agree to a slightly higher cap, or a combo of both. Lots of variables at play, had Murray gotten bought out and the league opted for a cap of 84.5 instead of 83.5, he'd be looking like a genius (hyperbole) right now.

Ya I think that all mostly checks out. There's obviously a reason they landed here and I'd agree that the Tarasenko signing probably got them here the most. I think it's hard to look at it all even taking that in to account and still not still feel like it's the GM that has to wear the criticism for the situation with what basically equals a high salaried player on the books with buyouts.

People will say that all teams have bad contracts and that's true, but this was a scorched earth rebuild that created these issues during that period and I don't think it's the same or as acceptable as a team that was competing. I don't expect perfection but that falls on deaf ears for me. I think the Del Zotto buyout in particular appears to have been short sighted. You had a team going nowhere and yet still felt the need to spread his salary over 2 years when you'd be looking to contend. That one alone would probably be enough to squeeze Pinto in for this year. They obviously felt like they needed him off the team as the priority, did so, and here we are, just like the other buyout decisions. Live with the results and resulting critiques.

It is what it is, but I think the criticism is fair, just as it is to have to play hardball with Pinto a bit. They just seem to have backed themselves in a little too much cuz any scenario to solve it involves losing an effective player, possibly at a cost, missing Pinto, and/or having razer thin rosters with waived players, etc.

 

[Micklebot]

I think the Del Zotto buyout in particular appears to have been short sighted. You had a team going nowhere and yet still felt the need to spread his salary over 2 years when you'd be looking to contend. That one alone would probably be enough to squeeze Pinto in for this year.

The two most short sighted buyouts imo were MDZ and Ryan. White, I get, it was at 33%, but Ryan and MDZ should have just finished out their contracts.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The two most short sighted buyouts imo were MDZ and Ryan. White, I get, it was at 33%, but Ryan and MDZ should have just finished out their contracts.

I agree. No issue with the White buyout for me, but Ryan, MDZ, and even Murray, despite handling it reasonably, are on Dorion.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I agree. No issue with the White buyout for me, but Ryan, MDZ, and even Murray, despite handling it reasonably, are on Dorion.

The mess we are in is all on Dorion if you want to treat your young hockey players with some respect. Leaving Pinto blowing in the wind and possibly platooning a rookie in and out of the lineup to make the cap work is treating them like pieces of meat. Its a business but .

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Only 2 teams are projected to be over the cap when LTIR kicks in (Toronto and Tampa). Tampa has no issues, they'll just waive and send down Haydn Fleury and/or Logan Brown. Toronto will happily bury guys like Timmins and Gambrell.

Ottawa has the fewest players signed (20/23 - 30 teams are at 22+) and just 120k of space.

Right now, the Senators are in the worst cap position of any team in the league, considering how many contracts they have, how much space they have, and who's left to sign.

That's why it'll be so hard to make a trade to move anyone. Everyone knows we're "in a pickle".

Norris most likely not starting.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The mess we are in is all on Dorion if you want to treat your young hockey players with some respect. Leaving Pinto blowing in the wind and possibly platooning a rookie in and out of the lineup to make the cap work is treating them like pieces of meat. Its a business but .

It's like expecting mercy when you've got too much blood on your hands. Playing hardball with Pinto is fine in a sense, but when you've gotten where you are by your own misdeeds, it's not so easy imo.

I still think he's put together a good squad this year and the slate is clean again next year, but it's not without a negative side story, like always seems to be the case during his tenure as GM.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Norris most likely not starting.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Norris most likely not starting.

He's expected to play against Winnipeg tomorrow.

If he's "most likely not starting", why isn't he already on LTIR with Pinto signed?

Not having Norris and then asking Pinto to play big minutes after missing camp doesn't seem prudent.

Jamie McLennan talked about this yesterday. You know what happens when players try to get up to game speed quickly after missing training camp? They struggle and then get injured. Skating with a minor hockey team in upstate New York is not a substitute for an NHL camp.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

He's expected to play against Winnipeg tomorrow.

If he's "most likely not starting", why isn't he already on LTIR with Pinto signed?

Not having Norris and then asking Pinto to play big minutes after missing camp doesn't seem prudent.

time will tell

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Ya wouldn't that be an interesting scenario. Alright Shane, Josh isn't playing so we need you to step up again after no camp. Certainly not an ideal scenario even if it is the cap crunch solution.

 

[Big Muddy]

The two most short sighted buyouts imo were MDZ and Ryan. White, I get, it was at 33%, but Ryan and MDZ should have just finished out their contracts.

I agree. No issue with the White buyout for me, but Ryan, MDZ, and even Murray, despite handling it reasonably, are on Dorion.

I was always puzzled by the MDZ signing. Why did they give him $2m for 2 years? If it was a one year, and/or less money (or preferable both), then it would have been more understandable. He was paid less on his previous 2 contracts as well (yes, COVID).

It's like the Derek Stepan scenario (yes, he's not part of the current dead-cap scenario, but). I can get why Melnyk would be attracted to a player with a cap hit ($6m) much higher than his actual $s, but why did Dorion think he was a 2C and needed to give up a 2nd to acquire him. While some of Stepan blame can be put on Melnyk, I also think there's some things that would be attributable to Dorion.

Then there's Murray. Dorion gave too much term to a goalie who had been shaky in his most recent seasons.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

He's expected to play against Winnipeg tomorrow.

If he's "most likely not starting", why isn't he already on LTIR with Pinto signed?

Not having Norris and then asking Pinto to play big minutes after missing camp doesn't seem prudent.

Jamie McLennan talked about this yesterday. You know what happens when players try to get up to game speed quickly after missing training camp? They struggle and then get injured. Skating with a minor hockey team in upstate New York is not a substitute for an NHL camp.

 

[Micklebot]

I was always puzzled by the MDZ signing. Why did they give him $2m for 2 years? If it was a one year, and/or less money (or preferable both), then it would have been more understandable. He was paid less on his previous 2 contracts as well (yes, COVID).

It's like the Derek Stepan scenario (yes, he's not part of the current dead-cap scenario, but). I can get why Melnyk would be attracted to a player with a cap hit ($6m) much higher than his actual $s, but why did Dorion think he was a 2C and needed to give up a 2nd to acquire him. While some of Stepan blame can be put on Melnyk, I also think there's some things that would be attributable to Dorion.

A generous interpretation was Dorion thought Stepan was a player worth the 2 mil in actual dollars he was getting, would be valuable as a vet to help pass on his experience to the kids (Norris apparently said he learned a lot from him) and they could recoup the cost by flipping him at the deadline with retention, heck maybe even get a 2nd back if they retained enough and he flourished while here. The injury really sunk it, even if I didn't think it was a great deal at the time.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I was always puzzled by the MDZ signing. Why did they give him $2m for 2 years? If it was a one year, and/or less money (or preferable both), then it would have been more understandable. He was paid less on his previous 2 contracts as well (yes, COVID).

It's like the Derek Stepan scenario (yes, he's not part of the current dead-cap scenario, but). I can get why Melnyk would be attracted to a player with a cap hit ($6m) much higher than his actual $s, but why did Dorion think he was a 2C and needed to give up a 2nd to acquire him. While some of Stepan blame can be put on Melnyk, I also think there's some things that would be attributable to Dorion.

I believe the argument for those, and in most cases, was that Ottawa was so undesirable that they had no choice but to accept bad deals if they wanted players. The argument that they weren't bad didn't seem to be the point in most arguments, just that if they wanted them they basically had to bend over for them.

 

[Big Muddy]

A generous interpretation was Dorion thought Stepan was a player worth the 2 mil in actual dollars he was getting, would be valuable as a vet to help pass on his experience to the kids (Norris apparently said he learned a lot from him) and they could recoup the cost by flipping him at the deadline with retention, heck maybe even get a 2nd back if they retained enough and he flourished while here. The injury really sunk it, even if I didn't think it was a great deal at the time.

I see the logic, but Stepan wasn't a 2C and imo that was just a miscalculation. As I was living in Texas at the time, I watched a lot of Western Conference teams and I could see that Stepan was at the cusp of his career. So, not sure we were ever going to get a 2nd back either in a TDL deal. I get the "theory" you've stated though.

 

[Big Muddy]

I believe the argument for those, and in most cases, was that Ottawa was so undesirable that they had no choice but to accept bad deals if they wanted players. The argument that they weren't bad didn't seem to be the point in most arguments, just that if they wanted them they basically had to bend over for them.

Yes, that's the argument that is always made, yet we have managed to sign some players over the years. I'm too lazy to list them (some are old and some recent), but there is a list. As an aside/additional point, there was a lot of unsigned players right up to the season start during the COVID years where players all signed to low $ one year deals. And, Stepan was just an add on, additional example that makes you wonder. There's certainly others (i.e., the dead cap players) and a list that could be mentioned.

 

[DrEasy]

I see the logic, but Stepan wasn't a 2C and imo that was just a miscalculation. As I was living in Texas at the time, I watched a lot of Western Conference teams and I could see that Stepan was at the cusp of his career. So, not sure we were ever going to get a 2nd back either in a TDL deal. I get the "theory" you've stated though.

Well, you probably watched more Western Conference games than all our pro scouts combined.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

continued here

Management - POHO Staios/GM D̶o̶r̶i̶o̶n̶/Front Office Thread - Part X [Mod Warning in post 1)

Continued discussion on front office - PD and Staios This thread is for constructive discussion on the current management. Any deviation into toxic or trolling discussions will result in thread bans. Thanks in advance!

forums.hfboards.com