Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part 2

[God Says No]

Any other GM would be fired for all the misfirings PD he had this offseason. It's actually very special. Almost every move was the wrong one. Amazing.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Just remember his self claimed "proudest moment as a GM" was trading this guy away. That reveals everything you need to know about his quality as a GM.

 

[Agent Zub]

Just remember his self claimed "proudest moment as a GM" was trading this guy away. That reveals everything you need to know about his quality as a GM.

f*** that hurts lol

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Just remember his self claimed "proudest moment as a GM" was trading this guy away. That reveals everything you need to know about his quality as a GM.

My insides hurt watching that.

 

[milkbag]

Just remember his self claimed "proudest moment as a GM" was trading this guy away. That reveals everything you need to know about his quality as a GM.

We've all dealt with the lumps of trading away some of our star players, but I think this is one I'll never quite get over... Stone should've stayed and been our Captain...

 

[BloodRedArmy]

Despite this he keeps drafting well [....]

I mean, has he drafted well? It's something we throw around a lot here, but where's the proof?

2020
Tim Stutzle - Great pick, but hard to eff that one up
Jake Sanderson - Looks to be a great pick, time will tell
Ridly Greig - Good prospect, prove it
Roby Jarventie
Tyler Kleven
Egor Sokolov
Leevi Merilainen
Eric Engstrand
Philippe Daoust
Cole Reinhardt

2019
Lassi Thomson - If he has a bounce back year, back to decent prospect
Shane Pinto - Good prospect, prove it
Mads Sogaard
Viktor Lodin
Mark Kastelic
Maxence Guenette

2018
Brady Tkachuk - Excellent pick that took some balls
Jacob Bernard-Docker - Good prospect, prove it
Jonny Tychonick
Angus Crookshank
Kevin Mandolese
Jakov Novak
Luke Loheit

2017
Shane Bowers
Alex Formenton - Good prospect, prove it
Drake Batherson - Probably PDs best pick
Jordan Hollett

2016
Logan Brown - Tick tock, tick tock
Jonathan Dahlen
Todd Burgess
Max Lajoie

3 bonafide NHLers over 5 years isn't exactly all-world drafting.

[....]wins trades regularly[....]

Stepan? Gudbranson? Stone? Zibanejad? Paquette/ Cobourn? Murray? Josh Brown? How are these all working out?

He's had some decent trades for sure (Karlsson trade working out great, JGP was good), but to say he regularly wins trades is a bit silly.

 

[Icelevel]

Just remember his self claimed "proudest moment as a GM" was trading this guy away. That reveals everything you need to know about his quality as a GM.

One of my favorite hockey players of all time.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

My buddy told me a great story about Dorion yesterday. Now take this with a grain of salt, its sort of a friend of a friend as the source.

Near the end of Bryan Murray's time he was setting up Dorion to take his place and he told Pierre that one day Melnyk was going to come to him and he will offer him a total low ball of a salary. Like 800k which would be less that half of what the lowest paid GM in the league is making. So that day came and surely enough Melnyk shows him a number... 800k. Dorion immediately accepts.

I have no idea if true but it's so funny in the context of the trades and signings he makes. He's the ultimate buy high, sell low man.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I mean, has he drafted well? It's something we throw around a lot here, but where's the proof?

2020
Tim Stutzle - Great pick, but hard to eff that one up
Jake Sanderson - Looks to be a great pick, time will tell
Ridly Greig - Good prospect, prove it
Roby Jarventie
Tyler Kleven
Egor Sokolov
Leevi Merilainen
Eric Engstrand
Philippe Daoust
Cole Reinhardt

2019
Lassi Thomson - If he has a bounce back year, back to decent prospect
Shane Pinto - Good prospect, prove it
Mads Sogaard
Viktor Lodin
Mark Kastelic
Maxence Guenette

2018
Brady Tkachuk - Excellent pick that took some balls
Jacob Bernard-Docker - Good prospect, prove it
Jonny Tychonick
Angus Crookshank
Kevin Mandolese
Jakov Novak
Luke Loheit

2017
Shane Bowers
Alex Formenton - Good prospect, prove it
Drake Batherson - Probably PDs best pick
Jordan Hollett

2016
Logan Brown - Tick tock, tick tock
Jonathan Dahlen
Todd Burgess
Max Lajoie

3 bonafide NHLers over 5 years isn't exactly all-world drafting.



Stepan? Gudbranson? Stone? Zibanejad? Paquette/ Cobourn? Murray? Josh Brown? How are these all working out?

He's had some decent trades for sure (Karlsson trade working out great, JGP was good), but to say he regularly wins trades is a bit silly.

I give full credit on the Batherson pick to Mann.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Really depends on what you believe the role of GM to be. IMO, what you're describing is a POHO. Dorion is fine as a GM, he just has too much on his plate to have to deal with all the PR BS. He's good at scouting and trading. He's not very good at the bigger picture POHO tasks. He simply has too much on his plate to worry about those things.

The role of the GM is very well defined and it is very easy to assess competence -- the GM is responsible for the team's wins & losses over the long term.

Outside of his first year as GM, the Sens have finished bottom 3 in the league every year of his tenure.

When Dorion's team finishes a season when it isn't bottom 3 in the league, I'll start singing his praises.

 

[Tuna99]

The role of the GM is very well defined and it is very easy to assess competence -- the GM is responsible for the team's wins & losses over the long term.

Outside of his first year as GM, the Sens have finished bottom 3 in the league every year of his tenure.

When Dorion's team finishes a season when it isn't bottom 3 in the league, I'll start singing his praises.

Kinda agree with this, but you have to give him credit for the rebuild - he’s sticking to his guns and I am very happy with it so far

 

[topshelf15]

Just remember his self claimed "proudest moment as a GM" was trading this guy away. That reveals everything you need to know about his quality as a GM.

Has to be the gold helmets

 

[umma gumma]

I give full credit on the Batherson pick to Mann.

Exactly. Similar to how John Ferguson is responsible for Ottawa drafting Daniel Alfredsson, and not Randy Sexton.

 

[BloodRedArmy]

I give full credit on the Batherson pick to Mann.

That's fair, but then you're giving Mann all the discredit for the rest. Can't have it both ways.

Either way, I don't think our drafting is as good as we like to pretend.

 

[BankStreetParade]

The role of the GM is very well defined and it is very easy to assess competence -- the GM is responsible for the team's wins & losses over the long term.

Outside of his first year as GM, the Sens have finished bottom 3 in the league every year of his tenure.

When Dorion's team finishes a season when it isn't bottom 3 in the league, I'll start singing his praises.

By that metric, it's almost impossible for there to be anymore than 3-5 good GMs in the league at any given time. Are the GMs in LA, SJ and DET bad because they've been near the bottom of the standings for the last 2-3 years?

 

[JungleBeat]

By that metric, it's almost impossible for there to be anymore than 3-5 good GMs in the league at any given time. Are the GMs in LA, SJ and DET bad because they've been near the bottom of the standings for the last 2-3 years?

Blake and Yzerman are head and shoulders above Dorion. Just look at how they convey their message during media sessions; they make Dorion look like an utter fool. They also have a plan put in place and are not making mind boggling decisions every other transaction.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Blake and Yzerman are head and shoulders above Dorion. Just look at how they convey their message during media sessions; they make Dorion look like an utter fool. They also have a plan put in place and are not making mind boggling decisions every other transaction.

Hmmm, I thought the assessment was that the Sens have been at the bottom of the standings for a few years so that makes Dorion a bad GM. Weird how when other teams are also at the bottom of the standings their GMs are fine though...

 

[JungleBeat]

Hmmm, I thought the assessment was that the Sens have been at the bottom of the standings for a few years so that makes Dorion a bad GM. Weird how when other teams are also at the bottom of the standings their GMs are fine though...

Blake became the GM of the Kings in 2017 - 2018 and Yzerman in 2019-20. The Kings look to be in a much better position that the Sens at the moment, and actually seem to have a plan in place unlike Dorion.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

That's fair, but then you're giving Mann all the discredit for the rest. Can't have it both ways.

Either way, I don't think our drafting is as good as we like to pretend.

I think overall our drafting with Mann has been good. I would say improved. I don't agree with everything but that is the nature of the draft in many ways

 

[Hale The Villain]

That's fair, but then you're giving Mann all the discredit for the rest. Can't have it both ways.

Either way, I don't think our drafting is as good as we like to pretend.

GMs generally get way too much credit or blame for the work of their scouts.

I mean they definitely have input on 1st round picks, but you can't expect a GM to spend time scouting potential late round picks.

They should primarily be judged on trades, signings, staff hires, etc... if they overhaul the scouting staff like Murray did in 2008 and it ends up being very successful, they should get credit. If they don't change up the staff after years of terrible drafting, they should get blame.

 

[Beech]

I mean, has he drafted well? It's something we throw around a lot here, but where's the proof?

2020
Tim Stutzle - Great pick, but hard to eff that one up
Jake Sanderson - Looks to be a great pick, time will tell
Ridly Greig - Good prospect, prove it
Roby Jarventie
Tyler Kleven
Egor Sokolov
Leevi Merilainen
Eric Engstrand
Philippe Daoust
Cole Reinhardt

2019
Lassi Thomson - If he has a bounce back year, back to decent prospect
Shane Pinto - Good prospect, prove it
Mads Sogaard
Viktor Lodin
Mark Kastelic
Maxence Guenette

2018
Brady Tkachuk - Excellent pick that took some balls
Jacob Bernard-Docker - Good prospect, prove it
Jonny Tychonick
Angus Crookshank
Kevin Mandolese
Jakov Novak
Luke Loheit

2017
Shane Bowers
Alex Formenton - Good prospect, prove it
Drake Batherson - Probably PDs best pick
Jordan Hollett

2016
Logan Brown - Tick tock, tick tock
Jonathan Dahlen
Todd Burgess
Max Lajoie

3 bonafide NHLers over 5 years isn't exactly all-world drafting.

you are 1-2 year too early in your assessment. The 2016's are a wash..the 17-21, could blossom. 3 thus far. They could be joined by 5 or 6. That would put the number at 8-9 in a 5 year period.

We are talking 1 1/2- 1 3/4 player per year...You have no idea of how impressive that really is....it translates to (and yes, this is just mathematics): 26 players in a 15 year cycle. We are talking 26 top 9 forwards and top 4 D..So of the key 13 positions, 26 could be available. That is 2X the need.

Your post could resonate much louder next year at this time if the 5-6 do not materialize.. Or collapse under the weight of added players who develop.

He fails the trade test. He fails the free agency test..it is too early to judge the draft test...He may end up Acing it.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

By that metric, it's almost impossible for there to be anymore than 3-5 good GMs in the league at any given time. Are the GMs in LA, SJ and DET bad because they've been near the bottom of the standings for the last 2-3 years?

A few points:

1. The categorization of being "good" at anything is a relative term. I consider myself a "good" hockey player, but that is when compared to the other 55 year olds I play pickup hockey against. Compared to an NHL team, I am outrageously bad.

2. As a follow-up to the above, within a given pool we'd need to agree what constitutes "good" relative to the pool. You've chosen to define being one of the 5 / 30 GMs who have a winning record as "good". Why 5? Why not, top 10 or top 15? In any event, yes based on any objective metric there is a limited number of "good" GMs in a 31 team league. It simply isn't rationale to think all 31 are "good".

3. There are some GMs who simply haven't had enough time to shape their team and impact the W-L record. IE, it's just too soon to assess their performance. You could make an argument that Dorion belongs in that group.

 

[GCK]

Dorion could trade BT for a bag of pucks and there would still be the same 4-5 posters defending his work.

Losing Balcers for nothing is inexcusable. Paying a second round pick for Stepan is also inexcusable and both are perfect examples of terrible asset management, trying to spin it any other way is just silly.

Losing Balcers was a mistake yes. The evaluation of Stepan was terrible, I’m also sick of paying more to cover other teams paying SBs.

I want Pierre replaced because he has not replaced the Pro Scouting team. His bad trades are mostly related to financials or terrible pro scouting. He is the GM and the pro scouts haven’t been replaced. Guess what Pierre that’s on you.

 

[GCK]

My buddy told me a great story about Dorion yesterday. Now take this with a grain of salt, its sort of a friend of a friend as the source.

Near the end of Bryan Murray's time he was setting up Dorion to take his place and he told Pierre that one day Melnyk was going to come to him and he will offer him a total low ball of a salary. Like 800k which would be less that half of what the lowest paid GM in the league is making. So that day came and surely enough Melnyk shows him a number... 800k. Dorion immediately accepts.

I have no idea if true but it's so funny in the context of the trades and signings he makes. He's the ultimate buy high, sell low man.

That sounds true except I think he makes 500K. I totally believe your buddy on the negotiation.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Blake became the GM of the Kings in 2017 - 2018 and Yzerman in 2019-20. The Kings look to be in a much better position that the Sens at the moment, and actually seem to have a plan in place unlike Dorion.

Ok, so how much leeway do you give a GM before you can start accurately assessing them? And what is your expectation of what a good GM can do? When you mention the Kings, what exactly does a "plan in place" mean as opposed to what's being done in Ottawa?

A few points:

1. The categorization of being "good" at anything is a relative term. I consider myself a "good" hockey player, but that is when compared to the other 55 year olds I play pickup hockey against. Compared to an NHL team, I am outrageously bad.

2. As a follow-up to the above, within a given pool we'd need to agree what constitutes "good" relative to the pool. You've chosen to define being one of the 5 / 30 GMs who have a winning record as "good". Why 5? Why not, top 10 or top 15? In any event, yes based on any objective metric there is a limited number of "good" GMs in a 31 team league. It simply isn't rationale to think all 31 are "good".

3. There are some GMs who simply haven't had enough time to shape their team and impact the W-L record. IE, it's just too soon to assess their performance. You could make an argument that Dorion belongs in that group.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do. There doesn't seem to be any baseline to measure performance whenever these discussions come up. It's just the same negatives on repeat with the same group of posters who share those views coming through and agreeing. I'm trying to challenge people's viewpoints by asking them to give us a more complete description of what constitutes a good GM or a bad GM, to tell us how much time is fair to give a GM before they can be assessed, to offer reasonable expectations for what performance a team should have from a good GM vs a bad GM, etc.

It's all just the same bitching and whining all the time and no one seems to have any actual discussion points. And, to be clear, I'm not defending Dorion. Personally, I think the GM position is so unbelievably over-rated. You can't point at any successful organization, in any field or business, and say one person is the reason they're successful. But I enjoy these discussions because it's fun to challenge people to be more substantive than just "Dorion bad, other GM good".