Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part 2

[swiftwin]

Yeah but Haley peca anisimov are still here.

Because those guys cleared waivers and Balcers didn't??!?!

 

[branch]

So shoving Nick Paul on the 4th line in order to make room for a Balcers that proved so little in the 51 games he played for us? What about Dzingel? What about Formenton next season?

The fact of the matter is, Balcers 100% would have been sent down if he was waiver exempt. We shouldn't be forcing players into the lineup who haven't earned it simply because we're afraid of losing them on waivers. If they don't make the cut, they don't make the cut. If someone claims them off waivers, take it as a compliment that a player that can't make the cut on your team can make another team.

It’s very amusing that you still go to bat for this guy but not terribly surprising. Sure in a sense if we were just taking into account his moves in a vacuum dealing solely with hockey operations you could say that he is somewhat representative of a middling/industry standard NHL GM.

What you continue to gloss over however is all the other things that he represents as a figurehead of the team. The gaffes, the inability to speak to the media, the arrogance, the overall aire of minor league mediocrity. This is the problem that people have with Pierre. This is a man with no real experience other than a brief stint as a pretty good evaluator of amateur talent. It’s safe to assume that he got this role via some degree of internal nepotism from his relationship with Brian Murray, and a combination of Melnyk’s spending habits and paranoia.

It’s not ok to continue to perpetuate that Pierre was the right man to lead this organization into credibility. To say that he continues to be the right man when this league is led by executives with bodies of work represented by decades of leading teams and bookending organizations is totally hilarious. Sure he made a couple trades, loss some, won some, and signed some contracts, some bad some good.
This is all well and good and you can look past it. But there will be no point in the future where people will be ok with this man leading a team, just based on personal feelings and league wide perception. There is a responsibility that lies on Pierres shoulders to rebuild the reputation of the team and it’s obvious that he hasn’t done this.

The team has been bottom 5 for 4 years, so the idea that you continue to carry his water while ignoring EVERYTHING else about Pierre Dorion and just looking at paper transactions is really perplexing and it leads me to believe that you are either incredibly stubborn or just doing this for a laugh. Figureheads and leaders have a responsibility to demonstrate excellence in all facets of the business, not just one area, and the jury is still out that Pierre has even excelled in the one area that he is expected to be good in.

 

[Fuhrious]

You're still refusing to answer my question. How exactly do you leverage these depth picks into players that are better than the players and prospects already in our system?

I've answered your question in both of my replies. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if you're being intentionally intellectually dishonest with me, because the answer is perfectly clear.

You use the assets to fill holes in the roster or acquire future draft selections...NOT a third 4th line center or #7 defenseman.

 

[BatherSeason]

I've answered your question in both of my replies. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if you're being intentionally intellectually dishonest with me, because the answer is perfectly clear.

You use the assets to fill holes in the roster or acquire future draft selections...NOT a third 4th line center or #7 defenseman.

Dorion could trade BT for a bag of pucks and there would still be the same 4-5 posters defending his work.

Losing Balcers for nothing is inexcusable. Paying a second round pick for Stepan is also inexcusable and both are perfect examples of terrible asset management, trying to spin it any other way is just silly.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I’m so glad that we’ve finally moved on from the Prince point watch to the Balcer point watch!

Same crew doing same crew things across the board.

Our current team on the ice is progressing nicely though, so there’s that

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I’m so glad that we’ve finally moved on from the Prince point watch to the Balcer point watch!

Same crew doing same crew things across the board.

Our current team on the ice is progressing nicely though, so there’s that

Yeah, as noted by Bathereason, Dorion could trade Peca for McDavid, and the same 7-8 people would whine for his head on a platter.

This is going to be a hard year, but the seeds will bear fruits of the bounty soon.

 

[BatherSeason]

Yeah, as noted by Bathereason, Dorion could trade Peca for McDavid, and the same 7-8 people would whine for his head on a platter.

This is going to be a hard year, but the seeds will bear fruits of the bounty soon.

Cmon now, we all know Melnyk would never allow a McDavid/Peca trade. McD would cost too much.

 

[JungleBeat]

Yeah, as noted by Bathereason, Dorion could trade Peca for McDavid, and the same 7-8 people would whine for his head on a platter.

This is going to be a hard year, but the seeds will bear fruits of the bounty soon.

Dorion could trade Stützle for future consideration and the same 7-8 ppl will defend him.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Dorion could trade Stützle for future consideration and the same 7-8 ppl will defend him.

BatherSeason already made that joke. Try to be original

 

[BatherSeason]

BatherSeason already made that joke. Try to be original

It wasn't a joke.

 

[MilesNewton]

#1 on my list would be to get rid of Pierre.

 

[JD1]

One hell of a lot of stupidity going on in this thread

How many guys were saying last fall that this year was not a year to acquire long term players? Plug holes, play young guys, see what we have, what we need, start filling out a roster more permanently

The problem with that article is it could have been written by any of 25 guys here that seem to have a different vision of what the team should have done, then fantasized how all the imaginary things would have worked out like gold.

I don't have any issues with what Dorion did. I wouldn't have done anything to move off seeing what i had in the young players. I certainly wouldn't have given up a boatload of them for Dubois either.

The only potential problem that Dorion put himself in is Murray's contract

Oh, and @Hale The Villain, Toews is 27. He's not young.

 

[swiftwin]

It’s very amusing that you still go to bat for this guy but not terribly surprising. Sure in a sense if we were just taking into account his moves in a vacuum dealing solely with hockey operations you could say that he is somewhat representative of a middling/industry standard NHL GM.

What you continue to gloss over however is all the other things that he represents as a figurehead of the team. The gaffes, the inability to speak to the media, the arrogance, the overall aire of minor league mediocrity. This is the problem that people have with Pierre. This is a man with no real experience other than a brief stint as a pretty good evaluator of amateur talent. It’s safe to assume that he got this role via some degree of internal nepotism from his relationship with Brian Murray, and a combination of Melnyk’s spending habits and paranoia.

It’s not ok to continue to perpetuate that Pierre was the right man to lead this organization into credibility. To say that he continues to be the right man when this league is led by executives with bodies of work represented by decades of leading teams and bookending organizations is totally hilarious. Sure he made a couple trades, loss some, won some, and signed some contracts, some bad some good.
This is all well and good and you can look past it. But there will be no point in the future where people will be ok with this man leading a team, just based on personal feelings and league wide perception. There is a responsibility that lies on Pierres shoulders to rebuild the reputation of the team and it’s obvious that he hasn’t done this.

The team has been bottom 5 for 4 years, so the idea that you continue to carry his water while ignoring EVERYTHING else about Pierre Dorion and just looking at paper transactions is really perplexing and it leads me to believe that you are either incredibly stubborn or just doing this for a laugh. Figureheads and leaders have a responsibility to demonstrate excellence in all facets of the business, not just one area, and the jury is still out that Pierre has even excelled in the one area that he is expected to be good in.

I actually agree with most of what you said. I've maintained for years that Dorion would greatly benefit from a POHO to take some some burden off Dorion's shoulders.

 

[Liver King]

A POHO with experience who can actually assess pro level talent would be huge. Should have hired that years ago

 

[branch]

I actually agree with most of what you said. I've maintained for years that Dorion would greatly benefit from a POHO to take some some burden off Dorion's shoulders.

It’s all the same package bro. He is the sum of his parts.

 

[swiftwin]

I’m so glad that we’ve finally moved on from the Prince point watch to the Balcer point watch!

Same crew doing same crew things across the board.

Our current team on the ice is progressing nicely though, so there’s that

Is Jonathan Dahlen watch over yet?

 

[2CHAINZ]

Is Jonathan Dahlen watch over yet?

Yes. But don't worry Mark Stone and Zibanejad watch is on still.

 

[Icelevel]

Is Jonathan Dahlen watch over yet?

69 dude

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Ah who cares anymore

 

[DaveMatthew]

I actually agree with most of what you said. I've maintained for years that Dorion would greatly benefit from a POHO to take some some burden off Dorion's shoulders.

Pierre Dorion is a fantastic head scout, and a top of the line assistant GM.

Unfortunately, in his current role, he's miscast.

He suffers from the same plight as Mike Reilly and Erik Gudbranson. They're not completely awful, and they'd be fine a more limited role, but they've been thrust into positions they're not suited for. It's a shame.

At the end of the day, you can't blame them, but you also can't feel sorry for them, since they've been given power and are high-earners. A conundrum.

 

[swiftwin]

Pierre Dorion is a fantastic head scout, and a top of the line assistant GM.

Unfortunately, in his current role, he's miscast.

He suffers from the same plight as Mike Reilly and Erik Gudbranson. They're not completely awful, and they'd be fine a more limited role, but they've been thrust into positions they're not suited for. It's a shame.

At the end of the day, you can't blame them, but you also can't feel sorry for them, since they've been given power and are high-earners. A conundrum.

Really depends on what you believe the role of GM to be. IMO, what you're describing is a POHO. Dorion is fine as a GM, he just has too much on his plate to have to deal with all the PR BS. He's good at scouting and trading. He's not very good at the bigger picture POHO tasks. He simply has too much on his plate to worry about those things.

 

[branch]

Pierre Dorion is a fantastic head scout, and a top of the line assistant GM.

Unfortunately, in his current role, he's miscast.

He suffers from the same plight as Mike Reilly and Erik Gudbranson. They're not completely awful, and they'd be fine a more limited role, but they've been thrust into positions they're not suited for. It's a shame.

At the end of the day, you can't blame them, but you also can't feel sorry for them, since they've been given power and are high-earners. A conundrum.

And you can also call a spade a spade by saying that the right fit is not present

 

[branch]

Really depends on what you believe the role of GM to be. IMO, what you're describing is a POHO. Dorion is fine as a GM, he just has too much on his plate to have to deal with all the PR BS. He's good at scouting and trading. He's not very good at the bigger picture POHO tasks. He simply has too much on his plate to worry about those things.

lol what does he have on his plate? He is in charge of hockey ops. He has the same mandate as the majority of NHL GMs. He doesn’t need people making excuses for him, he’s a big boy.

Unfortunately for him, the mandate of NHL GMs also includes interacting with the media and everything that comes with a front office job. He is also terrible at trades. His core competency is evaluating amateur talent. That’s where his role should lie. He is a poison pill in any other role.

 

[swiftwin]

lol what does he have on his plate? He is in charge of hockey ops. He has the same mandate as the majority of NHL GMs. He doesn’t need people making excuses for him, he’s a big boy.

Unfortunately for him, the mandate of NHL GMs also includes interacting with the media and everything that comes with a front office job. He is also terrible at trades. His core competency is evaluating amateur talent. That’s where his role should lie. He is a poison pill in any other role.

No he doesn't. Most other GMs have POHOs, assistant GMs, and often advisors. Dorion doesn't have a POHO, his assistant GM is a lawyer that knows nothing about hockey. His top scout is the minor league coach's brother. He has to do his own scouting trips to Europe because we don't have enough scouts. The front office is basically a Dorion solo operation. Despite this he keeps drafting well, wins trades regularly, and built a great foundation for the future.

Look at Toronto. Shanahan is the face of the front office, while Dubas works in the shadows.

It's obvious this all stems from Melnyk.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

No he doesn't. Most other GMs have POHOs, assistant GMs, and often advisors. Dorion doesn't have a POHO, his assistant GM is a lawyer that knows nothing about hockey. His top scout is the minor league coach's brother. He has to do his own scouting trips to Europe because we don't have enough scouts. The front office is basically a Dorion solo operation. Despite this he keeps drafting well, wins trades regularly, and built a great foundation for the future.

Look at Toronto. Shanahan is the face of the front office, while Dubas works in the shadows.

It's obvious this all stems from Melnyk.

Are you implying that Pierre Dorion is a better scout than Trent Mann? Also Trent Mann has been with the organization for longer than Troy Mann so I am not sure what exactly you are implying when you say "His top scout is the minor league coach's brother." What are you implying by saying that?